A better combat system: WE-GO

Climber

Join Date 03/2006

+17

A better combat system: WE-GO

Frogboy:

I can say post release I'm interested in putting in WEGO and letting people try out the RTS system we put in too.
Regardless, I want to write a free Myth-like mod for fun.

irongamer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-keeping_systems_in_games

In simultaneously-executed games (also called "phase-based" or "We-Go"), turns are separated into two distinct phases: decision and execution. During the decision phase each player plans and determines his units' actions. The decision phase occurs at the same time for everyone, so there is little wait for anyone to finish. In the execution phase, all players' decisions are put into action, and these actions are performed more or less automatically and at the same time. The execution phase is non-interactive, and there is no waiting for other players to complete their turns. Video game examples include Laser Squad Nemesis (2003), and the Combat Mission(2000-2007) and Master of Orion (1993-2003) series.

I am proposing that the default Tactical combat will be fought in a specific iteration of WE-GO, as described below

In the decision phase, all players decide unit action similar to traditional turn-based combat (TTBC) that the game is paused. In TTBC, melee unit is needed to be moved next to opponent, one by one. In WE-GO, when melee units are ordered to pursue non-adjacent opponent units, a red arrow is painted towards the opponent. The red arrow is fully adjustable, so that waypoints can be set to fine tune how it approaches its target. Spells that require longer cast time is casted this time e.g. healing, debuff or battlefield alternating spells.

In the execution phase, the unit may unexpectedly collide with other opponent units during its pursue. Therefore player need to decide beforehand in the decision phase, telling them how they behave when this happen: try to bypass unexpected opponent as much as possible, or eliminate any unit that is on their way before engaging the target.

Zone of Control (ZOC): Your enemy cannot bypass your surrounding ZOC unless their SPEED is way higher than yours; e.g. the Mongols. ZOC is bypassed if your unit’s Total HP is way less compared to your opponent; e.g. a lone ranger cannot hope to hinder an elephant charging towards him.

Execution phase is executed in a pixel-based RTS fashion. In this phase, only certain spells can be casted; most of them are in the variety of direct damage spells like fireball. The ONLY command can be given to units in this phrase is 'retreat'.

When retreating, units suffer extreme morale penalty and they cannot be controlled by player until they have flee to safety. Examples of safe place is way behind the front line, or city wall in the case of siege defence. If the only safety is at the edge of the map (where they 'exit' the map), a significant % of them will be lost if the battle is lost. This % is higher if the movement speed/strength of the winning force is high.

This way the execution (RTS) phase will not be a clickfest, but it keep players engaged throughout the 2 phases as certain but very limited amount of hand holding is needed. Physics, formation (turning, back stepping ) can be better handled in RTS too. Map is expected to be much larger than most TTBC games too.

This will work well for both MP and SP, as the Decision phase is simultaneous to all players. No one needs to wait, compared to TTBC. A timer can be set for this phase too, provide further control to the game flow.

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Not exactly related to WE-GO, but ...

Combat that should be allowed to lasts multiple days. It is epic, fun, and resolve a lot of problems. "Combat ends after N sub-turns", but it is continued at the exact same location with the still living forces when next game turns arrive. Enforcement can be brought in from both side (and allies) when next game turn arrive.

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Any comment? I think this is way better than TTBC or RTS.

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Raven X

I don't mind turns as being mere abstractions, honestly. However 4 turns per year (1 per season) might be best. I suppose it really just depends on how long games last.

For instance, Fall From Heaven games usually last 200-300 turns. beyond that is (a long game) but thats just on quick speed.

In fact, in multiplayer, when turn 200, 250, or 300 are reached we consider those "long ass game" benchmarks. Paradoxically, the first 100 turns pass by remarkably fast, and almost EVERY game has at least 100 turns.

Therefore, turns 120-190 turn into the real meat of most Fall From Heaven games, although some games "start" at around turn 75 as opposed to turn 120.

Additionally, the first 50 turns are extremely fast while turns 50 - 100 are your typical "rush turns" for someone trying to kill another player with some cheesy rush or another. This assumes, of course, that no one rushes from turn 1 with starting units.

For most roleplaying games, we have a rule that no one may declar war before turn 100, and in other versions the "rushing civs" can declare war in turns 50-100. And in other versions limited proxy wars can be fought before turn 100 as long as city capturing is not a goal, and its only a raiding party.

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Quoting Tasunke,

reply 51

I don't mind turns as being mere abstractions, honestly. However 4 turns per year (1 per season) might be best. I suppose it really just depends on how long games last.

If aging will be implemented, your champions will die quite fast, if 1 year = 4 turns & the lifespan of the champions = human average. Perhaps 1 year should "last" for 12 turns, IE. 1 month = 1 turn.

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Quoting LeBlaque,

reply 50

Quoting Nick-Danger, reply 43

Since I'm in the WEGO camp, I won't again spout its accolades. However, I have to suspect the above quote is right on (I don't know) as a WEGO implementation would likely take much more programming than a more standard TBS as during the Execution Phase of the players' WEGO the Units must respond intelligently to potentially numerous unfolding situations. By way of example in Combat Mission (WW II), a Sherman tank on a "Hunt Command" must decide among potential targets of opportuntity-- do I face that nearby Panzershrek Team that just appeared to my flank or do I engage the PzIII that popped from the woods 300 yards ahead? This "decision-making" tree could grow awfully complex...and I can't imagine the number of permutations in a fantasy setting (take on the Manifesting Wizard, spear the dragon, throw up a "Power Shield," engage the Hero, on and on and on....).

This can be solved, and it is the only 'crux' of WE-GO system. More importantly, the RTS combat engine has been completed, so the RTS part of the WE-GO is already there. Only major tweaking is needed to resolve this issue. But, how many 'engineering hours' will Brad need to make WE-GO? I guess not much.

It is just that he may not be convinced WE-GO is better system for his audience, if it is the default system.

In pigeonpigeon's #29 screenie, it does not look like a TILE-BASED combat at all. It look like RTS (or thereby probably WE-GO).

pigeonpigeon, are u going to post more combat pics for analysing?!

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Climber - We only have a few tactical combat related screenies. This is the latest ->

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Quoting Tormy- "Climber - We only have a few tactical combat related screenies. This is the latest -> "

And it's also my current Desktop , Freakin love that pic.

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Yeah, I love it as well!...can't wait for Beta3.

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