i am not sure how things are implemented right now in the current build, but after thinking about it for a while i think that champions shouldn't have access to every spell the sovereign has. i think that each unit that can cast spells, should only have a limited number of spells, with only the sov having all spells.
i would like for each unit that can cast magic to have a certain number of spell slots to place spells into that they can cast. the number of slots would be determined randomly upon birth or what not. prob between 1-10 spell slots. 1 being stunted, 5 being average, and 10 being genius level. these spells of course could be changed out anytime.
i think this approach would make the hero units more diverse and would increase the level of strategy for them.
Agreed, it would also more clearly define the boundary between combat oriented heroes (Dumb but Strong) and magic oriented heroes (Brainy but Puny). Also I agree that only the Sovereign should have access to every learned spell at any one time.
If they introduce any protection spells that move out beyond the "personal" level, one could then min/max single Hero's with MAX power spells, without using up personal protection slots, working under the umbrella of those spec'd to protect.
It creates sour scenarios...
after thinking abit about this idea. it dawned on me that it would create alot of scenarios in which you would have multiple hero units in the same army. so that you would have the spells you need, almost a sort of party of heroes and an army to contend with. i like this idea the more i think about it.
@John_Hughes
So, they'd still require essence in order to cast spells to begin with and they would still have limited Mana...
Besides in the vanilla system where they could cast any spell you'd still have the same basic problem.
As for the whole min/maxing thing... I don't think I really follow you. Sure you'd load up heroes with powerful spells, but its your choice... One powerful spell that hero could use once in combat (due to mana restrictions) or several less powerful spells he could use more often. The only difference here is that rather then having access to every spell, a hero would have a set selection of spells.
If you could further elaborate on Sour Scenarios beyond your initial example I'd appreciate it.
This would be great. I don't like that all heroes can cast any spell your sovereign knows, it feels cheesy and makes heroes feel generic.
If something like this is done, an interesting idea for a spell is one that lets a hero call on your sovereign, wherever he/she might be, to cast a particular spell that the hero doesn't know (but the effect should use the intelligence of the hero not the sovereign). The drawback would be that the hero would use mana casting that spell, and your sovereign would use mana casting whatever spell is requested (not to mention it'd require researching a spell that is useless for your sovereign, and using up a spell slot for your hero). It'd allow a hero that you give the spell to the versatility of your channeler's full range of spells for an extra premium in mana.
Although this would be moot if magic in combat will be like in AoW:SM, where your wizard can use magic in any combat within your territory, or even outside so long as you have a hero in the battle.
"If you could further elaborate on Sour Scenarios beyond your initial example I'd appreciate it."
What I could foresee is having Hero A with just one Spell. "Veil of Protection" The cost of this protection spell is 5. It has no offensive punch, lasts 1-3 turns, reduces damage taken by 75% and covers 3 Tiles in an 360 arc.
Now I add to that stack, Hero B (average slots) with Fire based setup "Fireball", "Fire Tornado" "Blood Boil" etc. Hero C (Genius slots) has a Earth based set up.
Just before the big fight, Hero A casts his one spell using up 5 Mana. Now that the stack is protected, the other Hero's have little to fear during their Turns and go nuts. With all the Spells expended the Stack withdrawals. Rinse and repeat. Sourness ensues...
I see your point John. One way or the other though, heroes are going to be able to gain access to spells so long as the Sovereign imbues them with essence, this has been known for awhile now.
The only difference between what we currently know and the proposal here is that currently heroes may have access to every spell (Saying may because I don't know how combat spells will work), this proposal would limit them to a smaller selection.
The scenario you described, and I agree is deeply troubling... Could be used either way, and fixing such cheap tactical exploitations should be tackled with certainty, but I don't see how the proposal here in anyway adds to the problems of such tactical exploitations. If anything it is one of several additional steps that need to be taken to address such.
Using your own example, would the three heroes you mentioned be any less imposing if they had access to every spell that you've researched? Perhaps such possible spell related tactical exploitations is why Frogboy proposed a Winner takes all approach in the first place. To prevent cheap skirmishing tactics using A-bomb lobbing heroes.
Another possibility would be when separating certain magical potential in heroes, allow only the most powerful spells to be used by "Genius" level heroes.
i could see that certain very powerful spells might take up more than 1 slot. also yes, the current system definitely makes it to where you have 1 extremely powerful hero in an army as opposed to needing a few(if you can spare them). that 1 guy could cast the protection spell, and then cast whatever other spells he wants. my way you might have to expend major resources getting those few together to pull off some amazing combat magic.
Maybe make heroes rely on their own spell abilities early on but allow the manufacture of items that allow the sovereign to channel through them. Also maybe heroes could operate on a different spellbook than the sovereign. Unique spells based on background and specialty. For example a priest of set hero could have different spells than a pyromancer. Quests could be used to either recruit specially skilled heroes or give abilities to existing ones.
I also think I would have to concur with the OP here.
i think that it would go a long way towards making the champions more unique. as it stands sometimes i can't tell one from the other, that is other than looking at a pic.
I agree, not every Hero/Champion should have access to Every Spell. Definitely not. That make's thing's a little too easy perhaps. If that can be done it should be a more powerful spell like something called "Magical Conduit" that literally allows the Sovereign to cast through the Champion.
As for Champions/Hero, they should have to level-up and buy Spell Books (with experience + money etc etc) just like in every other game. Not saying it's original, but it makes sense. Why mess with tradition in this instance? If a Champion/Hero wants to cast spells from the "Water" sphere, they should have to learn from the "Water" book just like the Sovereign did. Of course the Sovereign should have to teach, I.E. Imbue, the Champion to Do Magic first.
i think that the champions should be able to change their spells or spellbooks out at anytime when they visit a settlement with some sort of magic school. actually it would be neat if every city had random spells. maybe the more arcane type stuff you built there they would have more random spells, but never all spells. these would be based on the spells you know. this way you would have to send your champion around to different places to learn what they needed to. however the sovereign could directly give any spell he wanted to a champion.
maybe even create a building specifically for holding spells, arcane repository perhaps.
This would be something like the wizard towers in HoMM...
I really like that idea. These could be either manufacture items or quest-related items, and without these heros and family members just don't have some of the uber-capabilities of the sovereign. You could even limit some of the items to a certain area of magic (e.g. can only cast all sovereign "Life" spells) for you.
I also Like Raven X's Magical Concuit idea. This should be a very powerful spell and I think it would be a neat game mechanic to limit it such that the Sovereign would have to be in some previously built "Casting Chamber" (blatant rip from AoW) and couldn't just cast the spell while travelling or eating dinner....
Quoting Saije, reply 7I see your point John. One way or the other though, heroes are going to be able to gain access to spells so long as the Sovereign imbues them with essence, this has been known for awhile now.The only difference between what we currently know and the proposal here is that currently heroes may have access to every spell (Saying may because I don't know how combat spells will work), this proposal would limit them to a smaller selection.The scenario you described, and I agree is deeply troubling... Could be used either way, and fixing such cheap tactical exploitations should be tackled with certainty, but I don't see how the proposal here in anyway adds to the problems of such tactical exploitations. If anything it is one of several additional steps that need to be taken to address such.Using your own example, would the three heroes you mentioned be any less imposing if they had access to every spell that you've researched? Perhaps such possible spell related tactical exploitations is why Frogboy proposed a Winner takes all approach in the first place. To prevent cheap skirmishing tactics using A-bomb lobbing heroes.Another possibility would be when separating certain magical potential in heroes, allow only the most powerful spells to be used by "Genius" level heroes.
We still face a Finite amount of SoV Essence as a balancing factor, combined with the max allowable Mana any one Hero can generate to control how many spells can be used, or how many and what level of magic one possesses.
The "Buy" the Magic Books idea seems very doable. Perhaps the method of Learning spell for Hero's is to use their Mana initially, such that they will require some re-gen time to be able to actually cast those spells? That would be a great check and balance to a Embue - Buy Book - Start nuking Now, sequence when otherwise you should have had to simply run away prep, wait and then start the nuking process.
I guess what I fear, and it is a Balance issue many times, is that The Magic part will quickly outstrip the War (army) part of the game play. Invariably, and I have sen it before, is that the almighty powerful tools have a way of making the rest of the process moot and every game turns into a race to the end power game.
There is absolutely no reason to waste valuable Resources or precious Turns on building a army that has a lifespan of 38.5 seconds, come 275(?) turns into any game when Fire Magic has been, and can be, rushed to.
yeah i hear what your saying, and while i do want spells of mass destruction(SMD's ha!), i can see where i would be mighty pissed if i had an army of thousands that took me a couple hundred turns to get only to be wiped out by a volcano popping up under them. has to be some kinda check or something.
Yes, if we can get Spells of Mass Destruction, then we either need to be able to build Armies of Mass Destruction, or we need a means to counter/defend our armies from such magic to an extent even if our magic isn't as powerful.
Well while I like the idea of protecting our armies from SMD's (Actually I really don't but it is good for balance lol). If we want to have real specialization mattering then a player that specializes in Magic with strong magic but weak armies should be equal to a player that specializes in Warfare with a huge army but weak magic.
So yeah agree that we need some form of army protection but I am not sure a weak caster should be able to defend against a strong caster just like you wouldn't expect a weak army to defeat a strong one.
Well yeah. My point was just that if people who focus on magic can cast an SMD on someone's massive army, annihilating it completely, then focusing on warfare would be an utter waste of time and resources. Either we would need to be able to build armies large enough that by shear numbers or by shear excellence of unit quality, they could survive long enough against such powerful magic to give them a fighting chance of victory.
So I guess first chance we get, we will need to see how the early Magic system, will stack up against the early armor protection system, or the combination of the two.
What I loath the see is armies marching in formations while under little magic umbrellas that act as "Anti Magic" Shielding...
(shudders)
Who says that heroes would get access to the most powerful combat spells? Or that Mana will be in such abundance that rapidly raping armies with SMD would even be possible? If my sovereign focuses entirely on magic I'd expect him to be able to wipe out an army with one massive show of magic... I'd also expect him to be severely drained and vulnerable after that. Balancing however, definitely needs to be a focus of we players from here on. I don't want any one play-style to so severely trump the others that it becomes the only way to play... I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that opinion.
Who says that heroes would get access to the most powerful combat spells?
The current Beta says so.
Hero's can be imbued with Essence and thus gain their own personal Mana Pool and when they do they get access to ALL available researched spells.
That may indeed change. But we have to go on what info we are privy to now. Not unknown info coming from someones imaginary Crystal Ball.
If the Hero's Mana pool size is to be restricted, then where do we ask to have that Bar set? Tough call. A Hero with a 20 Mana Pool had best have some really fine Armor...
And if not my Hero's, then my Offspring. They come with their own Essence Pool, it can be increased with Level and if they don't get access to top Tier Magic's then who?.
Do we keep everyone but the SOV out of the top tier Magic Pool?
Sounds a tad bland really.
nope, i think that champions should have access to every spell, but they should only have a small pool of spells that can use at any one time. i really think something needs to be done to address the champions individuality. this helps.
Yes. But if someone came at me with an army that they spent the whole game building, then I should not be able to obliterate it with my carefully cultivated magic in one turn with an ultra powerful spell or two, at least not without serious, serious, consequences. After all, the player whose army I just obliterated would probably require dozens and dozens of turns to rebuild their army (factoring in training time, gold and resource costs, and population costs required to train troops in this game), not to mention any fantastical creatures which might be even harder to replace. The one who destroyed that army should take just as long to recover as the one who lost the army, in some way or another.
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