Originally, Elemental was going to have continuous turn combat. That effectively meant real-time. Ultimately, after playing around with it, we decided to implement turn based (simultaneous turns based on combat speed) with tiles.
The evolution of tactical combat in Elemental owes a lot to the beta program. 9 Months of public beta testing of the game engine with corresponding debates has led to some important changes that would not have happened otherwise.
A lot of the discussion resulted in us thinking about the game in ways we didn’t think of before. Specifically, how do we address game design issues that have plagued our genre for decades now? If you’re a strategy gamer, you know them well.
For us, the challenge of tactical combat has been about giving the player as much control as possible over how long tactical combat should last. This ultimately led to the realization that the funnest way for us turned out to be to have the strategic elements of combat very clear and well defined.
Elements of Tactical Combat
In no particular order these are the things that matter:
Remaining Questions and issues:
Goodmorning All, Regarding Winner Takes All:the proposed system does not allow for many tactically important options.
Garrilla warfare.: for example were 100 units take on 10,000 over 25 game turns by hitting supply lines, or pegging off 10 -20 troops with archery then 'vanishing'.
Reinforcements: My front line comes under attack, but my backup is 4 turns away from the castle that is being seiged. . . . If the defending force is strong enough to 'hold' the ground 4 battle aught be able tocarry over for those 4 turns.
A battle would be N battle rounds, after words both sides would pause the battle and finish the turn. They could at that time back on the world map call for a retreat, or maintain the fight (if called for a retreat given a estimation of how many troops they will loose in dis-engading.). If during that next turn before the battle round's begin New troops arrive, they would Join the fight as re-inforcments. You could even keep track of how many world map moves an army has. Say 10. if they Move 5 steps before arriving at the battle when the battle is being calculated those troops would arrive on battle turn (N/2) as reinforcements on the battlefield. If it's two men in one man out, this isn't possible, and that would be a pitty' IMO Takecare
Robbie.Price
Well as some of you know, after Elemental ships I am planning on taking a sabatical to get back to my programming roots and most of that time will be spent making mods for Elemental.
For Elemental itself (the shipping game) it's important to us that the game out of the box plays according to what our vision for the game is without users having to mod it (it'll be incredibly moddable but we don't want anyone to feel they have to mod it to get the Elemental we have in mind).
Switching the tactical system was very expensive for us but it was more important to us to do the tactical battles right than releasing something that we didn't think was optimal. But the other tactical system, just like the other economic systems we've tried, aren't "gone", they're just not exposed in the shipping game but that is something we can change as we get time.
After reading about WEGO it does seem intriguing. i do hope that they bring in multiturn battles. maybe have all combat happen at the end of a turn? not really sure how the turn system works however.
That is such an important pair of points I would like to express my appreciation for your bringing to light at this point good sir. Sometimes we tend to forget that time never stops. The inside track will often do that.
Might I impose with a question...
We will get Beta 2-3 this week?
twitch twitch
WEGO -WEGO-WEGO!
I am totally good with TBS vs RTS in the intial release. If there is a patch with WEGO, that will truly make this game epic. I have been waiting for two weeks with baited breath (and since I live in the US gulf coast, and it is hot, and right now is shrimp and crawdad season, stinky!) for the Beta 2.
I still think the points of this thread should be broken out with polls and individual threads on each topic. This thread (thing) has a life of its own. Too broad to be useful at this point. Besides, it sidetracks the real question. "Pinky, are you pondering what I am pondering?"
Yeah!!! Uhu!!! Well deserved Karma...I know that this is not the right topic to ask this, but: When Beta 2 comes out? (I really suffer from anxiety problems...)
WEGO is the latest buzz phrase, updated from 'simultaneous turns' in TBS.
Frog, I understand you've redone tac battles and eaten the time/resources/expenses to do so, but something like simultaneous turns is pretty huge, and I would argue worth further delay to get it into release.
It's a big change and has a big effect, not just on MP but SP too.
Heck, I'd kick in another $5 for simultaneous turn TBS at release.
This is a good example where involving players earlier in your next game might be a benefit
"Heck, I'd kick in another $5 for simultaneous turn TBS at release. "
I am not a big Modder type Nick, but I would absolutely join a Team after launch to see if a Sim-Turn Mod could be done.
It seems we may even be able to recruit the Boss Man. He has even stated that he thinks, possibly, a WEGO Mod might be worthy of his efforts as well.
And testing, I can test!
What kind of beer do you guys like? *heads off to store so as to be able to put his beer $ where programmer's mouths are *
So what turn model is the base game going to use?
Is the tactical system usable in MP or only for single player?
That all sound very cool, Frogboy. The RTS verses TBS has never been an issue for me. I enjoy both equally. For me it's been about the Time Limits and stuff like that. I've always thought the "Core Mechanics" should be what you and Team envision (just no artificial timers please).
I think Modding Elemental will be a very enjoyable experience even for those who know nothing at all about Modding or writing any kind of code (not even XML). For anyone really, it will be easy to pick up and start learning.
The reason I am so vocal about adding editors from in game is for people like John_Hughs above who say:
...and things like that. That's one of the reasons people Love Stardock games. Because you always put ways, through the game engines them-selves, for people to change things and "Mod" things on their own without needing to learn something complicated.
I can't wait to see what you "cook up" when you go on vacation/sabbatical. So even though you'll be on "sabbatical", make sure you wi/fi us in some personal updates and let us know how you're doing and what you're working on.
We could also mod WEGO for the strategic part too. Wouldn't that be a mess!
So just to be crystal clear the TBS tile based system for tactical combat is an immutable law of the game that no comment or suggest is going to alter or cast doubt on? I'd just like to know if taking the time to think, write, and propose an alternate system is 100% pointless.
Yes. I can see no reason, other than someone seriously F'd up (not likely) it is a "In Stone" decision.
Word is, we can Mod it in...
I've the same question too! Is "TBS tile based system for tactical combat (TTBC) is an immutable law of the game"? How much effort/coding has already been committed? We the forumers only aware that Continuous Turn is a no go 4 days ago, but how much has been commited TTBC?
The WE-GO I've proposed is basically Simultaneous turn + RTS. Since the RTS has been completed, how difficult is it to switch from TTBC to Simultaneous turn, in terms of effort/money?
Comparing a well implemented WE-GO and a well implemented TTBC , WE-GO seems way more attractive as the market does not have it for a long time, and it is provide a smoother flow during MP games.
That can be great too. It is evident in AOWSM (simultaneous turn (ST)) that there are disappointments for some when playing MP games, where the MP also strangely devolve to who click faster.....
However, ST is good enough on strategic map. I am not trying to ask for that much.
I don't mean to start you on quibble, but I think a major point if this thread was to determine what the rule would be that would allow defenders to win if the attackers didn't win. It didn't seem like a "timer" as much to me as a way for defenders to know how long they have to defend. I didn't really respond because no idea I can think up even sounds good to me. Should it be related to the distance each army is from a friendly city? I have no clue!
You know...I would love to see an innovation in the modding "business" where we had more liberties to program. I don't know how that would work, with IP protection, licensing and all. I'm just pointing that out. I would love to see software engines where you could inherit C++ objects and derive your own classes for certain things, like events. Like Galciv2, to be able to create your own items up for UP vote.
I'm thinking of the game Nethack, which was the most awesome mod-happy game ever (it was, admittedly, open source). I modded that game myself, but it sure was spaghetti code. Everybody was coding special cases for everything. And then MUDs, which basically obsoleted Nethack and were even more awesome. That provided a layer of interpreted code which let wizards code stuff, but only the server administrator could recompile (thus mod) the driver. MUD was the predecessor of MMORPG's, which basically closed it all off again (but added graphics, distributed servers, data replication, etc.). But MUD itself was basically a combination of the Eamon series with the Internet, and Eamon was also an awesome mod-happy game series.
I wish there was a good way to cross the community the modding community forms--with amateurs who basically know how to program but just for fun on their spare time--with the stuff the pros do, like the graphics, the networking, the masterminds, QA, etc.. They're full-time, so they need to get paid. Plus when you're modding, all hope of QA is off. Warlords II let you mod the heck out of it, but the mods were all unbalanced and sucked.
Not at all my friend, I understand completely and see your point. My view was from the point of the attackers. As for the defenders, they would have to "Defend" (in a siege) until they either ran out of food, or went out to fight the attackers. The attackers should have All The Time In The World to "Attack" so long as they have food or another army comes along and Moves Them By Force.
Note: Bolding so it can be seen, not yelling my friend, no worries. ( <----- somehow I think I have to keep saying that from now on LoL )
Heh, I am strongly against the WEGO combat system for vanilla EWoM. [I will try out the WEGO mod of course, just to compare the 2 systems in action.] I am pretty sure that the current system [tile/turn based] is much better for a game like EWoM, but maybe this is just a subjective stuff. I think that the vast majority of the potential "buyers" are expecting to have a turn based combat system in the vanilla game.
Wego IS turn based. It's just simultaneous, not "one after the other" turns.
WEGO: "In simultaneously-executed games (also called "phase-based" or "We-Go"), turns are separated into two distinct phases: decision and execution. During the decision phase each player plans and determines his units' actions. The decision phase occurs at the same time for everyone, so there is little wait for anyone to finish. In the execution phase, all players' decisions are put into action, and these actions are performed more or less automatically and at the same time. The execution phase is non-interactive, and there is no waiting for other players to complete their turns."
Basically yes, it is turn based. I don't like that it's separated into two phases, and I especially don't like that the execution phase is totally automatic/non-interactive. To be honest I don't like the whole system.
I just bought frozen synapse, a game with a bego system. And that's just the balst it seems to be. When you say the execution phase is automatic it's like saying that the attack of your units is automatic once you've clicked on the enemy. Whatis interesting is choices, decisions made. And in the planning phase you have a lot more decisions to do.
Frozen Synapse for the win !
I am not saying that it's a bad system. I don't like it, because I think that a real turn based or the tile/turn based systems are much better for a game like EWoM.
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