Newzbin has arguably been the "Best" source and index listing of what is posted to BBS Newsgroups around the world. BBS stands for Bulletin Board System and almost every Internet Provider in the entire world provides access to them as part of your Internet package. Whether you're old enough to remember or not, BBS's are the Foundation of the Internet. These are the Original Internet. In many ways this is what the Internet was built on. If you had to compare it to something physical, use this example. You buy some land and build a house. That land is the Earth, your foundation. That land, that Earth, is the BBS system of Newsgroups. It's what the Internet was built on. Think of every website in existence as a "House", sitting on the land. Without getting extremely technical that's the best analogy I can give. It is a flawed analogy, it's not exactly accurate, but it's close enough.
I've been a free member and user of Newzbin for well over the last ten years (No, it's not just for pirates and hackers). in a way you could also compare BBS Newsgroups to MIRC back in the day before ICQ and Yahoo Instant Messenger and Skype. Think of Newzbin as a site that would tell you what everyone was talking about in various channels on MIRC. That's what Newzbin was. You had to either be a paid member of the site or you had to be INVITED by a paid member and were given a basic free membership. It wasn't always "Invite Only", but when they switched to that system everyone had to make new accounts and if you weren't already paid or re-invited you were locked out, sorry about your bad luck. Luckily, as I was a free member, a friend (who was just a random Internet stranger at the time) re-invited me and I was allowed back in.
Some people, namely those who used Newzbin's service, are going to greatly suffer because of this. It was an invaluable tool to help people find needed information quickly and easily. Any information at all from examples such as "Legal Statutes from cases dating back to the Early 19th Century" to "Online Legal Copies of Every Book in the Library of Congress" to "Discussions being held by College Physics Professors" and also "Doctors Sharing Research Up-To-The-Minute". It was as much a listing of communications as these very same forums are. BBS Newsgroups are nothing more then that. People talking back and forth in topics just like this. The exception is back then our ability to post and reply wasn't set up like this, so every post made, whether it be a new topic or a reply to that topic where it's own "Thread". Newzbin helped organize those threads and posts and show you where things were so you could quickly find them.
Sadly how-ever, as with many technological innovations in our day, some people chose to use these for evil purposes. Even though these "Newsgroups" are intended for communication, and to provide a backbone for the rest of the Internet, they are also used to host and share files with limited "retention". Every ISP on the GLOBE must have space on the BBS Newsgroups for their systems to work. I don't know why or how it's set up exactly, I don't work for the cable company so I can't tell you why they even have to be there at all, but they do. More and more ISP's these days Are Limiting or Flat Out DENYING their customers access to these Newsgroups. If your ISP isn't giving you access to them, you're not getting everything you're paying for and you should call them and DEMAND Access as a Paying Customer. Far be it from me to tell you what to do, it's no skin off my shoulder if you enjoy wasting your money, but I know I don't like wasting mine.
When I say some people use Newsgroups and by default the listings on Newzbin for "Evil" I mean piracy of course. Newsgroups go by the more common term Usenet. Still, Newzbin as a website did NOT HOST OR SHARE ANY FILES. All it did was tell people where files were at, in what groups they were listed, and what the file names were. It did this because technically these posts on various Newsgroups were the same as the other topics or "threads" or "conversations", it just so happens some of them are pieces, usually .rar's, of games or movies. The same kinds of things that can be found on any Torrent site.
Newzbin did nothing wrong. People did have LEGITIMATE USES for it, just like they do Fogbugs, or Photobucket, or many other sites. Newzbin was closed because they owe money to people I believe. I didn't know anything about any of this or it's legal trouble before finding THIS ARTICLE when I tried to log-on to Newzbin today.
If you know or heard anything about this or find a site that talks a little more in depth, please let me know as I'd like to find out all I can about it being shut down.
Hopefully some of you out there see this for what it is regardless of what the causes are. Another place being closed because someone thinks they're losing money over piracy and pressured some Government to take action. Newzbin wasn't just a site for pirates or other thieves. It had real value. Eventually, slowing, this is going to turn into a legal and virtual "Witch-hunt" by Governments to shut down more and more sites limiting knowledge and people's freedoms Online.
Any luck on the DA scoundrel I PM'd u about yet then ?
My numbers are made up but Usenet is like this. The largest ammount of posts, and thus users, are text only and not infringing copyright. Only a minority are doing copyright infringement even if they use, and abuse, the majority of storage. This minority is even despissed by many Usenet users since retention for legal binaries would be better if copyright infringers were not abusing Usenet.
The numbers cited go the other way; 90+% of the total number of posts were related to copyright infringement. even if it's a minority of users, it's the vast majority of their content both from storage and total post perspective.
And if Newzbin had made real, meaningful attempts to get rid of the infringers it could have made a difference. They mostly refused to do anything at all, and when they did make a token effort nothing actually got removed. Under both American and English law, this makes Newzbin responsible for it because it's happening on their site and they are doing nothing to combat it.
Wrong on a couple counts. First - and this has been tested in court - is that ISPs don't actually deal in content, they just maintain the connections. Indeed, it is not within their legal rights to monitor what is passing through. And if they aren't allowed to monitor it, they can't reasonably be expected to take any sort of corrective action.
Second, even if they somehow got past the first point, they would need to knowingly and willingly allow the downloads to continue. If they had the ability and obligation to monitor what was passing on their networks, then they could be held responsible if they didn't cut off users known to be pirates. Only then, in a situation where they had a clear legal right and obligation to prevent piracy, could they be shut down for not meeting that responsibility. And if such a situation ever occurred, yes that particular ISP should be shut down. Or fined or whatever, if shutting down isn't practical due to other considerations.
Then you must have no trouble with torrent sites since they "don't actually deal in content" they just connect one from one source to another.
Oops, John....missed that PM in the 'several' recent ones....shall look into it...
Excellent! Another illegal (posting links is the same as hosting the downloads) crap site gone, good riddance!
Dont worry. 10 more will take its place. You guys are trying to stop the wind. Good Luck.
I must have missed something. The only thing that comes to mind when I think "DA" is Dragon Age....either that or District Attorney, which as far as I know ALL Attorneys ARE scoundrels...lol.
*sigh* they DID NOT post "Links", my friend. They posted lists. Even if a Pirate did go to Newzbin with the intention of finding stolen goods like games or movies, they would Still Need THEIR OWN ACCESS to Usenet to get the goods. Newzbin DID NOT post links to files or anything of the kind, though by default it did tell you where you could find them. Even though it told the pirates where things were, the pirates still needed to do their own "foot work" to get the files. Newzbin Did Not Host OR Link To Files directly.
Over-all, even though I found Newzbin Incredibly Useful, they Should Have edited out the listings of pirated games and movies. I'm not saying Newzbin was blameless. They probably could have tried a bit harder to not post the information pertaining to pirated things. The bottom line is though, Legally, they aren't responsible for what other people put on Usenet. Newzbin doesn't run Usenet. ISP's run Usenet.
It would be the same as trying to shut down MySpace because someone said something bad about some-one on it. It would be the same as shutting down Facebook because some-one found your picture on-line and posted it to Facebook while making fun of you or something. It's simply not right to shut something down or censor people because of a few "bad eggs".
A huge portion of the pirated stuff in the newsgroups is loaded with virii, like a giant petri dish full of virii
Read every single post (I need to stop doing that....) and I agree that Newzbin deserved to be shut down.
I bet people overjoyed about Newzsbin dismissal are not Usenet users. They consider beneficial the part about making copyright infringement harder and they are not affected by the shutting down of the legal uses so it's good overall for them, that legitimate users are harmed because of this is of little concern.
For legitimate Newzsbin users is the other way. The harm to their legal activities is perceived as bigger than the benefit they get from making copyright infringment harder. Thus the opposition.
It happens often. Erode liberties bit by bit so that no big group is affected at any given time that would rise a big protest.
Google also indexes binaries newsgroups. Check http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?lnk=nhpsfg&q=alt.binaries
But the uproar caused by trying to bring down Google because of newsgroups would be too big.
This situation has been described decades ago.
"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. THEN THEY CAME for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. THEN THEY CAME for me and by that time no one was left to speak up."
Thats cause all people care about is ME, me me me me.
Most people could not give a flyin f**k until it effects them personally. There is a hell of a lot more important thing going on than IP.
Seeing as Newzbin was basically a directory for torrent sites, your post makes you look silly. Would you agree that your local phone book should be allowed to list prostitutes, drug dealers, and hit men in the yellow pages, simply because the publisher of the book isn't a party to any crimes that may be committed using that information?
Speaking only for myself, no I am not a Usenet user. And yes, I am wholely unconcerned that you are harmed, because for years you have profitted from the illegal activities of others.
Let me explain that, as you are clearly too ideologically motivated to see the logic. NO OUTSIDE ENTITY ordered Newzbin to close, they made that decision themselves. Yes, they faced injunctions to restrict part of their business, but they were not outright closure orders. Yes, they faced stiff, even ruinous fines - but they didn't HAVE to be fatal. What they did face was a court-ordered destruction of the only profitable segment of their business.
They survived on paid subscriptions, and a huge percentage (we'll disagree on the numbers, but its undoubtedly more than half) of their customers lost the reason to pay for a subscription. Are the surviving, legitimate customers (which I don't believe for a second includes anyone in this topic) willing to pay double, triple , or even more than they are currently paying (depending on exactly how may users were lost vs how many stayed) for the same service. The user base got decimated, but the expenses did not - so the surviving users would need to make up the difference.
Clearly, the owners of Newzbin decided that the customers would not pay such abruptly inflated prices. If they thought people would pay, they would have tried to stay in business.
The part where you profitted is this: would you have willingly paid three or four times the rates you did, for only the legal content? If yes, well good for you - you're an incredibly (literally, not credible to believe) virtuous person.
Chances are your answer would be no - in which case you have benifitted from reduced prices for years because the illegal side of the service was subsidizing the true cost. The illegally inflated user base spread the costs over more people, giving everyone cheaper access.
You don't know me, At All, so I really don't see how it's fair of you to call me or anyone else here a thief. I'm not so hypocritical though to say I've "Never" downloaded something I probably shouldn't have. I'd say it's pretty safe to say almost everyone who comes to this site or any that it's linked to hasn't watched a Movie or a TV show (before TV shows were legal to watch online) somewhere on the Internet that they didn't pay for. The difference is not everyone who's done that is a thieving pirate who's main source of entertainment is stolen goods. I've been online since I got out of High School some 14 Years ago. In all that time I can count the number of illegally gotten *anything* that I've obtained on One Hand. That's the God's Honest Truth and I don't really care whether you or anyone else believes me.
Also, for all the years I used Newzbin, I never once had to pay for anything. I started as a free member and I was re-invited by a paying member which cost me nothing. I was able to use it for my needs finding stock information and other discussions I took part in quite happily for free every day for the last 5 years or so. I don't know the whole story other then what I read in the article I mentioned in the OP, but as far as I know they didn't CHOOSE to close. They closed because they are about to be hit with fines totaling way more then the business aspect of their site could EVER make. Business cost money, even "virtual business" like websites have costs. When it comes to matters like this, legal fees and fines can be considered "costs". If the cost of running a business far outweighs any profit the business could ever make the business MUST CLOSE (unless the owner has unlimited money). The fines that are being levied against them are definitely coming from a OUTSIDE ENTITY as I don't think they'd fine themselves.
To me there's a HUGE DIFFERENCE between "Joe blow" who downloads a movie, watches it once or twice, then deletes it....and the guy who Steals and Pirates Games and Movies and Re-Sells them for Profit. That person, the one copying and selling stuff, Needs to be IN JAIL. Those are the Only "pirates" that actually hurt the entertainment industry in the slightest. They are the ones making money by selling a unsuspecting customer a false copied product. "Joe Blow" doesn't need to be punished for the Scum Bags sake, the Scum Bag Needs to be Punished.
So...again, to Stress this point. I AM NOT, NOR HAVE I EVER BEEN, A THIEF WHO MAKES MONEY FROM PIRACY. To assume that I am just shows ignorance. I'm also not hypocritical enough though to say I've never done anything wrong online but I'm NOT a Pirate and I Don't Condone piracy.
Edit: In All those years, I never, EVER, once saw a "Torrent Link" or "Torrent Download" on Newzbin...EVER. If you want torrents there are sites just for that like uTorrent. Newzbin didn't ever have any torrents that I saw.
The real question isn't whether the website can be used for copyright infringement (because that answer is invariably yes), but rather its internal policies and how it deals with the issue. Different jurisdictions have different laws and precedents on the matter, but in many all you need to do in order to avoid liability is to remove infringing posts upon request by IP holders. If you have a sufficiently large website with sufficiently small staff that is mostly run by its userbase, it may be infeasible to do anything more than that.
Now, I can't speak for the specifics of this website, as I'm not familiar with its specific policies and issues. Maybe it has been grossly negligent in its handling of unscrupulous users, maybe it hasn't. However, I think anyone who is making broad statements without knowing the specifics of the case is guilty of jumping to conclusions.
No.
An ISP is an entitry designed to connect a person to the Internet.
However,
A Torrent site is an entity intended to facilitate the 'sharing' of property [not necessarily your OWN].
They are different animals.
Oh no worries, I was just using your own logic in a way that you wouldn't like it because your logic was flawed to support your position. I knew how you would respond before you did.
I was compared to Nazis (well, the entire legitimate side of the argument was, but I seem to be the most active voice), so anything I call any of you is fair game. If you don't like the label, get the fuck off the wrong side of this discussion. Whether you personally are a thief, or you "just happen" to be defending a position, or a service, that supports piracy, you are a pirate in my view.
And yes, they did support piracy in the fact that they refused to combat it in any way.
At least in the US, such sites *could* be shut down in exactly the same way Newzbin was, if they behaved in the same way. After several fairly high profile suicides related to internet stalking and harrassment, there are pretty tough laws addressing that issue. Much like existing copyright law (the British version of which Newzbin refused to obey), the web site is obligated to remove illegal, harrassing, bullying, or any other such material at the request of the target. I should know, I enforce our version of these policies on GameFAQs every day.
Your view doesn't hold much weight. Legally there are differences, but only in terms of scale and severity of punishments.
For the most part this is correct, at least under US and (apparently) British law. Part of the complaint registered against Newzbin was their blatant disregard for this responsibility. Being understaffed is not a defense; they were making a profit so they could have hired help if they needed it. Or hell, a few trustworthy volunteers with somewhat broader access can solve most of the problem. That's how GameFAQs does it, ~30 active volunteers handling user-reported violations takes care of most issues. I've handled no fewer than 50 user marks every day for nearly two years now, and while most of our marked violations are for trolling, flaming, offensive material, underage users (another possible site killer) and the like, quite a few are for links to illegal material. There is absolutely no reason Newzbin couldn't have set up a similar system, they simply didn't.
Deviantart.com ... a 'sister' site to Wincustomize.com in that we both rose/emanated from the ashes of skinz.org...ultimately towards different ends. Devart is 'the' significant resource for online graphic art/expression, however it has no pre-emptive content moderation which means it is exposed to more IP issues than we tend to be.
Most of the 'older' members of Wincustomize.com are also long-time members of Devart....
Ahh, that makes sense.
I'm not defending the illegitimate torrents by any means; rather, I'm defending the people who actually use these services for legitimate purposes who are now the collateral damage for shutting down the illegitimate side of the site. That's what people like me are angry about.
Honestly, for a site like DeviantArt, pre-emptive content moderation would be infeasible for all intents and purposes.
So how come no-one does anything about China? China gives US copyright law a big F'kYOU every day and no one in the US government does anything about it. I can name off a half dozen Chinese websites that Are Not Filtered or Blocked that anyone can go to and watch almost any US TV show ever made. You can go to some of them and watch every-single-episode of Start Trek, ALL The series, any time you want for free. I don't know if they allow downloads or anything like that as I've never tried, but I'm assuming it's something like the Chinese equivalent of YouTube. China doesn't give a rats-ass about US copyright laws, they don't police the sites, they don't even try or pretend to try. They just look at US copyright and say F'kYou and no-one cares. How come Hollywood doesn't try to lobby against them?
The US and China share many interests and China manufactures half the crap bought and sold in the US. China makes DVDs legally for Hollywood companies to sell all over the world, and then they Pirate them too and say "F'kYou stupid Americans". Who here has ever been to Asia? Well, I haven't either..lol, but, I'm sure we've all seen the "expos e's" and "behind the industry" on Dateline NBC and shows like that. They bust vendors selling pirated copies of movies still playing in US theaters. Some times those very same vendors make it over here or their "goods" do and they end up on racks in privately owned "Convenience Stores". We've all seen them for sale, $5 DVDs, real looking package, store codes on the wrapper. Odd though, Wal-Mart is selling this Same DvD for $20. How can this little foreign owned "Quick-E-Mart" afford to sell this movie for $5 and not take a huge loss? Gee...I wonder where they get their movies?
So lets see, Newzbin probably had a few Million Users who used Newzbin to track illegal goods posted in Usenet. For sake of argument, lets say ALL of those few million ARE PIRATES. Ok, that could be a lot of lost money. No one's gonna buy TV show DvD seasons if they can download them for free right? What a bunch of scumbags right? You Bet...but there are THREE BILLION CHINESE PEOPLE committing copyright infringement right now!!! (Ok, that's being dramatic. Not every Chinese person is a Internet pirate). Still, any of those 3 Billion people who have Internet Access can watch and download American Movies and TV shows and not pay us a dime. Where's the Police?!?! Where's the Chinese Government people stepping in to shut these pirate sites down? Oh wait a minute..THEY AREN'T!!! That goes for games too btw. They love American and European made games in Asia, and they love them even more when they get it for free!!!!
But hey, it's not like there's a Whole Country out there telling us to go F'K ourselves and our copyrites....so let's go after Newzbin!!!!
Note: I did NOT mean that in a racist way. I happen to deeply respect all Asian cultures and religious practices. In fact, if I could have chosen before I was born where I could "be born", I probably would have picked Japan. Mostly because I enjoy fighting Demons on a daily basis and pursuing under-age girls in standard school uniforms. (J/K about the Demons and school girls..duh )
Yes, and we do...quite efficiently.
It's not about 'liability'...it's actually about a specific zero-tolerance for warez-use or its promotion.
No-one make us do it....but we choose to do so as it is the only way we can sleep well at night when we are the very people who suffer through the warez-use of our own products.
When someone says "I have a crack for Windowblinds...etc.." I think...."my mate Neil designed that...his family and that of Stardock's other staff will be impacted upon adversely...I will do my bit to castrate the sod.."
Stardock...the owners of whichever site you are accessing this forum from are peopled by real living human beings whose livelihood is impacted upon by warez-use....so no-one here has a sympathetic ear for the lamentations of disenfranchised children who demand that the world [net] MUST be free.
Be 'free' elsewhere...but be painfully aware that the internet is NOT as anonymous as the kiddies like to think...and 'you' will have your nostrils slit as and when it suits...
I totally agree with you on this one Darvin3, with one exception. That line should read "I disagree; the internet's sole purpose is to facilitate the transfer of LEGAL information ("sharing", if you will)."
Now That, I can agree with, LightStar. Well said, my friend.
anyone want a cup of tea?
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