Newzbin has arguably been the "Best" source and index listing of what is posted to BBS Newsgroups around the world. BBS stands for Bulletin Board System and almost every Internet Provider in the entire world provides access to them as part of your Internet package. Whether you're old enough to remember or not, BBS's are the Foundation of the Internet. These are the Original Internet. In many ways this is what the Internet was built on. If you had to compare it to something physical, use this example. You buy some land and build a house. That land is the Earth, your foundation. That land, that Earth, is the BBS system of Newsgroups. It's what the Internet was built on. Think of every website in existence as a "House", sitting on the land. Without getting extremely technical that's the best analogy I can give. It is a flawed analogy, it's not exactly accurate, but it's close enough.
I've been a free member and user of Newzbin for well over the last ten years (No, it's not just for pirates and hackers). in a way you could also compare BBS Newsgroups to MIRC back in the day before ICQ and Yahoo Instant Messenger and Skype. Think of Newzbin as a site that would tell you what everyone was talking about in various channels on MIRC. That's what Newzbin was. You had to either be a paid member of the site or you had to be INVITED by a paid member and were given a basic free membership. It wasn't always "Invite Only", but when they switched to that system everyone had to make new accounts and if you weren't already paid or re-invited you were locked out, sorry about your bad luck. Luckily, as I was a free member, a friend (who was just a random Internet stranger at the time) re-invited me and I was allowed back in.
Some people, namely those who used Newzbin's service, are going to greatly suffer because of this. It was an invaluable tool to help people find needed information quickly and easily. Any information at all from examples such as "Legal Statutes from cases dating back to the Early 19th Century" to "Online Legal Copies of Every Book in the Library of Congress" to "Discussions being held by College Physics Professors" and also "Doctors Sharing Research Up-To-The-Minute". It was as much a listing of communications as these very same forums are. BBS Newsgroups are nothing more then that. People talking back and forth in topics just like this. The exception is back then our ability to post and reply wasn't set up like this, so every post made, whether it be a new topic or a reply to that topic where it's own "Thread". Newzbin helped organize those threads and posts and show you where things were so you could quickly find them.
Sadly how-ever, as with many technological innovations in our day, some people chose to use these for evil purposes. Even though these "Newsgroups" are intended for communication, and to provide a backbone for the rest of the Internet, they are also used to host and share files with limited "retention". Every ISP on the GLOBE must have space on the BBS Newsgroups for their systems to work. I don't know why or how it's set up exactly, I don't work for the cable company so I can't tell you why they even have to be there at all, but they do. More and more ISP's these days Are Limiting or Flat Out DENYING their customers access to these Newsgroups. If your ISP isn't giving you access to them, you're not getting everything you're paying for and you should call them and DEMAND Access as a Paying Customer. Far be it from me to tell you what to do, it's no skin off my shoulder if you enjoy wasting your money, but I know I don't like wasting mine.
When I say some people use Newsgroups and by default the listings on Newzbin for "Evil" I mean piracy of course. Newsgroups go by the more common term Usenet. Still, Newzbin as a website did NOT HOST OR SHARE ANY FILES. All it did was tell people where files were at, in what groups they were listed, and what the file names were. It did this because technically these posts on various Newsgroups were the same as the other topics or "threads" or "conversations", it just so happens some of them are pieces, usually .rar's, of games or movies. The same kinds of things that can be found on any Torrent site.
Newzbin did nothing wrong. People did have LEGITIMATE USES for it, just like they do Fogbugs, or Photobucket, or many other sites. Newzbin was closed because they owe money to people I believe. I didn't know anything about any of this or it's legal trouble before finding THIS ARTICLE when I tried to log-on to Newzbin today.
If you know or heard anything about this or find a site that talks a little more in depth, please let me know as I'd like to find out all I can about it being shut down.
Hopefully some of you out there see this for what it is regardless of what the causes are. Another place being closed because someone thinks they're losing money over piracy and pressured some Government to take action. Newzbin wasn't just a site for pirates or other thieves. It had real value. Eventually, slowing, this is going to turn into a legal and virtual "Witch-hunt" by Governments to shut down more and more sites limiting knowledge and people's freedoms Online.
The Nintendo case was along the lines of....idiot bought the game before it was allowed to be sold....he bragged about it....no-one believed him so he uploaded it to the net.
90,000 hits later it had thus been stolen 90,000 times [thanks to him] and he was found liable to the tune of 1.5 million plus 100 thou costs.
OK...divide 1.5 million by 90,000 and you will git the 'value' of an individual claim.
It's justified [the 1.5 mill] because he distributed the game to 90,000 people who ALL failed to compensate Nintendo for their 'acquisition'.
It's not moronic at all, only tedious and repetitive...
I think it's a safe bet that Stardock's consumer demographic is neither all that 'young' nor a pirate, anyway.
I feel quite comfortable insulting pirates....it's almost as entertaining as removing their access to Stardock's "world", a task undertaken with relish.
Why?
Because I've travelled the 10,000 miles or so and have MET the people I have KNOWN for a decade...so I can definitely put a familiar face on those people who pirates of [Stardock's] software are hurting.
Why the hell must penalties for criminal acts be FAIR?
The NEED to be only two things.
JUST and EFFECTIVE.
Every day that an idiot-kid-pirate thinks [if he can/cares] about what happened with the 22 year old and Nintendo...he might just be deterred from continuing on a path to his OWN ruin.
I am a heck of a lot younger than you are Jafo. Are you saying Stardock doesnt' want or appreciate my business? Should I be kicked out of the old man's club or what?
I would argue that part of the reason piracy isn't being combated well is it's being fought by the typical middle-aged white man club (the same group that typically dominates the industry) that doesn't understand or even want to put any resources into understanding the actual root of the problem. They rather just use a weed whacker, taking out anything in the line of fire and wondering why it just keeps coming back year after year and why the "good" vegetation getting whacked along with the weeds is pretty pissed off about the whole affair.
But hey, you can always nuke the whole site from orbit, just to be sure, but don't be surprised if most of the consumers are gone when you get back.
Not at all...but all studies into the average age of the 'typical gamer' show it is significantly older than school-age [at least], which pre-supposes many are gainfully employed and "may" have less inclination to pirate/more appreciation/respect for others' property, IP and otherwise.
Neither am I saying ALL pirates are young...and/or all young are pirates. - both would be rash-generalising bullshit.
There "may" be a predilection for the disenfranchised youth whose pocketmoney is all used up on texting their fellows to find the "need" to get their computer-based entertainment for "free" but the reality is much of the online piracy is created/provided by people with antisocial intent and the "users" of the product are just unwitting dupes furthering a cause of which they have neither understanding nor a desire to care to.
Much online piracy is setup in an attempt to stick-it-to a PARTICULAR "man" whom the pirate has perceived has 'done him wrong'.
There are people "out there" I know of actively doing just that.
When my 'world' crosses paths with theirs and there's an opportunity to do something about it....I do it. It's called showing responsibility....
I see. Well, fortunately, I am not school age either. I am sure you are aware there are number years between you and school age in there. I am in the working world, so to speak, although I was there during school too.
I can't speak for people outside my camp, but those I know who pirate games around my age wound up being pushed there after being treated like crap from companies they actually paid. Bringing them back, well it happens but it's an ongoing struggle. Companies like Ubisoft, just add fuel to the fire. I won't justify their behavior, but I can understand it.
OK...as long as the justification for game piracy is legitimate'''such as being "treated like crap".
I'd hate to think that someone imagined a justification being for ACTUAL BODILY HARM.
There IS NO JUSTIFICATION for "being pushed there".
In the real world I can understand wanting to dis-embowel a xhild predator who preyed on YOUR family member....but let's ALL get a sense of reality here.
A commercial entity that fucked with YOUR interpretation of your commercial rights "may" have deprived you of A FEW DOLLARS without your expected contractual satisfaction [or your legitimate commercial rights to such satisfaction] but that is aq case of being diddled out of what you paid for.
Maybe.
It's not legitimacy for carte-blanche to fuck [all of] the industry in revenge.
Consumer Law [protection] gives you LEGAL recourse, none of which is to pirate.
Anything.
Ok ive now seen this thread grow an ugly ugly life of its own in such a short span of time.
Simply put as a consumer and in no way as a developer i am of the belief that if you get screwed over by a company you boycott. You dont steal the game and give it a whirl while justifying that stolen property on your computer.
It is not a right to own a piece of property unless you have been given that right by the previous owner. The same goes with IP, you cant just steal something cause its "not worth" your money. I mean im all for stripping away some publishers of IPs ability to ban people from all their products, forums and ensure that they can never play again from that account. When does that happen though? All the time? I think not. Id boycott if it was though.
The best way to ensure you get your message across isnt to start spewing nonsense in a forum where frankly most readers want a good game, and trust that stardock will deliver.
To be fair Jafo is actually happy to converse with everyone while expressing his views so maybe it doesnt make you look the brightest with comments such as, "he probably commits petty CD burning crime". I mean your going at the man, only problem is hes probably not the one your looking for.
Oh and on the subtopic from this thread on piracy, i dont think you can justify it, but then again i dont believe in things for my own convenience, maybe if i started id have more IP to use?
RandomEasyPlayer...I don't see that this thread has grown any form of 'ugly life' at all.
It's been surprisingly balanced and sensible, though as with the case with opposing views it has been 'oppositional'....
Ugly i meant because its a complete bitch to read, and i didnt want to call it pretty, cause that it isnt.
Im of the opinion that piracy is a fancy 'justified' way of stealing but ya know there will always be different views. I mean im not typically gonna tell someone off just cause they steal something, its not my job to report them either but i dont like it when people put foreword their opinion of an opposite mindset without at least chucking mine in as well.
http://tartarus.org/~martin/essays/burkequote.html
If a sit by and do nothing its only cause i dont know the people. Kind of awkward holding a banner against piracy when most people dont want to hear it. Though if the subject comes up im against it. If i know a gamer is pirating i try and convince them to buy the games first, or at least hold out till a sale then buy the game instead of pirating it. I dissaprove of piracy, but then again i cant force people not to do it when piracy is almost second nature for some people these days.
Thats my problem here, its not so much that piracy blindly a no-no, its just that most people don't care. You cant make them care, infact the only way they will stop is to reason with them so that they understand that they dont need what they take.
Ok, my 2 points.
First, how do you expect me to turn in anyone knowing that his pirating would net him a $million+ fine? I can't have that on my conscience. The potential profits lost to the owner is terrible but knowing I'm partially responsible for destroying some guys family and whole life makes sleeping at night difficult.
Second, losing our old school newsgroups is an attack on net neutrality. Maybe I'm biased because I respect the old school but having authorities begin shutting down all the newsgroups (piracy aside) comes off disturbing.
This :
And this :
Are not compatible.
You broke SimBin's rules. By your standards, you are a pirate.
By my standards you are a normal person. After all, like any normal person, you did not follow absurd rules when there was no reason to do so and no punishment was expected. You clearly think abusive EULAS and copyright laws are not worth respecting. One act speaks louder than a thousand words. The veil has fallen.
I bet everyone who defends current copyright laws is about the same. They realize it's abusive, defend strict respect of copyright it in public but don't strictly respect it themselves.
I'll do as Jafo does, rather than as Jafo says.
It was SimBin's mistake to adopt a dangerous and damaging form of DRM [Starforce]. It's a rootkit [look it up]. Sony got into a heap-load of trouble for using rootkits.
Their use is a SERIOUS security issue, and no-one on the planet has a RIGHT to endanger your security.
The FACT that a very good game was right royally fucked by Starforce usage was NOT lost on SimBin either as they discontinued its use.
My use of a 'crack' for the rootkit install meant my machine and thus my identity, etc was protected. It cost no-one a sale, as I had already bought it. SimBin got their money...and I protected my machine.
It is likely that were there no rootkit solution the SimBin customers would have deserted them in droves.
Since that [bad] purchase I have bought further sims from them [SimBin] and remain loyal to their craft.... IN SPITE of their stupidity using a DANGEROUS DRM method.
Of course....I could always allow the rootkit to install.....expose myself to hackers.....have my bank account details stolen....and SUE SimBin AND Starforce as well. Perhaps THEY should be paying ME for protecting THEM from the possibility of litigation [by me]...
Don't presume this is a justification for piracy. It is not.
It's a justification for the reverse-engineering of subversive attack methods being stupidly adopted by game companies who panic and do so BECAUSE of real piracy activity.
It's not a justification; It's a reason. Then again, it seems most the people in the industry are perfectly happy at failing to combat piracy, it is a completely failure by the way, rather than actually find the root of the problem. Without a basic understanding of the motivation of some pirates, it's no wonder the problem just builds. Your response indicates to me you'd rather just chug along, business as usual, failing as usual than acknowledge that not all pirates are of the anti-social, stick it to the man, this is cool variety. It's a bigger loss for you than it is for me. I am telling you a fact. It is no surprise to me that your response is pfft... it shows in the way the industry has been responding.
I am not "the industry". I am an admin on a skinning website....OK, so it's the biggest/most significant skinning site...but it isn't actually a Gaming site at all, only the Forums are cross-linked to Stardock's Gaming sites [plural].
The IP I am personally involved in protecting is graphic art [copyright] not EULA-related at all, but in spite of others' opinions to the contrary I am neither naive nor an idiot, and thoroughly understand how/where/why/when/and who is all about piracy of games/software.
I have 'pretended' to be an idiot-child and emailed a peanut brain on NeoWin who was offering a cracked WB version....just so the AUTHOR of the program could obtain the 'latest crack ver' to see how it was done and whether it actually 'worked'. [it didn't].
The distributors of pirated software are basically stupid [which is good....provided they are too dumb to breed] and culling them will actually improve the gene pool. [they are out of their depth in the shallow end].
No-one asked me how to cure the piracy problem...as they won't like the answer.
Execute the little shits.
They do not, nor have NEVER had a legitimate reason for getting something for nothing.
Never.
Never had...never will.
I'll be fucked if I'll accept some dickhead's notion that a solution is to BRIBE them....pay them off for pirating/stealing people's property.
It's called EXTORTION.
Your [US} Government has a policy of NOT giving in to extortion/terrorist's demands.
Why should IP Owners?
Get real, people.
The fault of modern technology is it has allowed knuckle-draggers the opportunity to steal with very little effort...and virtually total immunity [so far]. The only valid solution is to refute all arguments to validity/justification and impose SERIOUS penalty.
Destroying peoples' livelihood because they [or their minors] stole/pirated is JUST, as it is their ILLEGAL actions that destroys/impacts upon the lives of those who work in the industry.
Anyone laid-off from a Gaming company/site/etc can and will always wonder...."what if piracy didn't exist...would I still have a job....and be able to feed my own kids....rather than be on the dole...through no fault of my own?"
Is that the final revision of your solution or is there more development work to go yet on the piracy problem?
Yavul.
No.....the devil is in the detail.
There needs to be a committee....a work-group, an agendum, a senate oversight committee [people like those]...probably several junket tours [preferably with wineries on the program]...public debate....a vote [both secret ballot and show of hands]...constant revision...at least FIVE Amendments....a judicial hearing - make that 2...High Court and State....an inquest....and finally defer it all to a date to be set.
In the meantime they will have died off through ennui....
Obviously you don't speak for the entire industry anymore than i represent all consumers. You are certainly not "the consumer" in this argument either which pretty much puts you on the other team, so to speak. Execute the little shits? Really? Obviously we've reached the extent of your ability to discuss this topic.
But you had previously said :
Nobody can rationally agree with you. Nobody. Because a rational person can only agree with one of those two. Never with both.
Also :
I'm afraid both SimBin and StarForce forbid reverse engineering of their products thus, by your own words, you used an illegal product, the 'crack'.
If I were to post links to cracks for Starforce protected games would you remove them?
Or are you the only one entitled to playing Starforce protected games while not compromising your security because of the rootkit?
Yes.
No.
The issue [or non-issue] is that I purchased the game....I have the game....I promote it as a good-game-to-buy because as driving sims goes it's VERY LIKELY the best available commercially [as I have them 'all'].
I do not distribute the game...nor do I distribute the 'solution' to the rootkit issue. What I altered on my machine has no bearing at all on SimBin's IP or on their commercial viability as to repeat and reiterate ad nauseum...I am their customer and I purchased their games [plural] and will continue to do so.
It's not a hypocritical action as the difference is quite clear.
In FACT, what would be nice is....if a SimBin customer [me] was able to contact the vendor [SimBin]...give them my registration codes, etc....and they THEMSELVES gave me the solution to their faux-pas of using Starforce. I actually have a feeling they didn't realise exactly what they had gotten into with Starforce until it all went pear-shaped.
Actually they can....as yes, I could accept SimBin's EULA.....install the game [as I did on the old machine]......then watch my system go to shit [it did - both DVD burners subsequently failed to burn at their expected optimum speed]...and subsequently sue [as you do] everything that moves...namely Starforce AND SimBin...for failing to adequately inform the purchaser anywhere before/during OR after install...that their hardware would be 'damaged' and their system security would be compromised.
If I wanted a trojan I could have just gone to the warez kiddies and not done it the right way in the first place.
The reason for forbidding reverse-engineering is to [attempt to] deny pirates the free rein to bypass inherent security and DUPLICATE/copy the game for others to use without payment to the author.
I din't do that...and I didn't promote that.
Anyway....enough of this.
One or two co-contributors to this thread simply will ignore any form of reasoning so as not to upset their applecart that says that all software manufacturers want to screw their customers...and all piracy is thus legitimate and fair restitution so must not cease....not until the Industry is on its knees.
I'll keep an eye on it [the thread] in case name-calling resurfaces, etc., but otherwise I have to go....
I have to chase a person who is distributing Stardock's property without consent.
You know..... he's stealing from US. You AND me - the members of Stardock's community.
He's a pirate.
Oh gosh....such a noble calling he has.....
Maybe he should be cannonised/knighted....afterall...he's only [indirectly] sticking-it-to-YOU.
Nite, all....
Your words, not mine.
"THEIR restrictions" you said.
But you did not take your custom elsewhere. You purchased it and then broke THEIR restrictions in the EULA you did accept.
Jafo does not practice what Jafo preachs.
Im pretty sure one example, put foreward by jafo i might add to try and discuss with you about his views on piracy in an 'oppositional' thread, isnt meant to be a chink in the armor. In Australia they debated as to the legitimacy of the next successor to our prime minister because when he was a kid he might of hit some other kid in the shins with a cricket bat. I mean be real, realistically noones perfectly good, only perfectly good targets for animosity of the "man".
This is hardly a worthwhile discussion if nothing gets resolved, opinions or otherwise.
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