http://store.steampowered.com/news/3792/
I wonder if this means Brad Wardell will stop working with Civ V.
I just can't support DRM, that while not TOO bad, helps enforce a near-monopoly. This may be a blow to the other DD providers- as this is the biggest game to do this so far.
Hopefully EWOM is everything I want, because now I'm relying on it.
(Note: I do use Steam, I just won't support being forced to use it on non-Valve products)
If Wikipedia (also a 3rd party site) is correct about the origin date of the Impulse client, then yes, Brad Wardell is wrong. All the information Guest posted is evidenced with links stating exactly what he stated whereas Brad provided only a reference to a search engine's general site.
Although I'm sure it's impossible for a CEO to be wrong... never happens.. ever.. just assume they are always correct and infallible. Works great in the banking business.
Also, I'm reallly getting frustrated with these forums. I keep trying to post, but it's literally taken an hour and a half to get 3 posts up. "Forums go Boom" x100 on Chrome, Firefox, and Internet Explorer.
"The Steam happy people" seems to miss the point of the "The Steam not so happy people" The problem is not that it is on Steam, its that it is Steam only. You have to install the Steam software even if you buy it at Gamestop. This is what many have a problem with. Many players play single player only and dont want the Steam functionality. The "Steam only" thing also raises the question of Steam getting too much market power. When huge games like CIV V comes on one platform only, that creates an uncomfortable feeling for many. Saying that "I am happy with Steam and there is no problem" doesnt address the concerns that many people have over this development.
You say that like it's a minor difference. It's not.
So are you going to boycott Elemental because you MUST install Impulse? This is clearly marked on Stardock's product page for Elemental whether you buy the boxed version or not.
As for Stardock games locked to Impulse (oh the HERESY!), how about Sins?
Reading their Elemental product page reads very similar, that an Impulse account will be required for updates and multiplayer.
And let's not forget the Fences 0.99 controversy when the game installed Impulse and did all the things that users complain Steam does (connect to the internet, register online, scan your PC, etc) without even notifying the user, against the laws of many countries!
Valve has produced a product that works, that is easy to use, and their network can handle the demand of their products. If they obtain a natural monopoly because consumer choose them over other products, then you can't fault how business works. It just means their competitors (ie Stardock) need to produce a better product to take over.
I'm sorry, but when the CEO of a competitor to Steam slags on their competitor's software, they should make sure there's no reason to be called out that their software does the same.
Maybe Steam should rework its Steamworks to offer users (especially retail ones) the option of no installing Steam at all until the user actually wants to get online (for multiplayer if the game has it) and/or patches (which would be used as opportunity to register/validate the game). The Store part (once Steam client installed)? I don't care about it. I know that it's good for many people and others hate it. I simply ignore it because that's not DRM and the popups are harmless.
Elemental is a exclusive of Impulse anyway, as Sins. The price to pay for no disk checks or other bs that usually plagues PC games is that patches and multiplayer are with Impulse (which per se isn't bad. Would you feel better if intead they forced you to Filefront and Gamespy?). If you have no problems with Steam, neither with this then. And if you only care for patches, even better.
Here, let me elucidate some people with the history of Stardock and their download services.
Stardock Stardock Central
Stardock and it's associated download services have been around a hell of a lot longer than Steam. Or even Valve as a company.
I'm not saying there's a problem with Elemental being Impulse exclusive, or even Civ5 being Steam exclusive. I'm saying that Brad shouldn't accuse 2K of doing exactly what he's doing with Elemental. He said he won't buy/mod/support Civ5 because it'll be locked inside Steamworks, yet with Sins and Elemental he's doing exactly that, closing those games inside Impulse.
Hence why I said IMO it was hypocritical.
Well, if that article can be trusted http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Games/Interviews/stardock_reactor/ it seems that Impulse reactor based games will not require the installation of Impulse to update themselves. In fact, they will not require the installation of any client (with the store that came along) in order to be installed, activated, patched and having access to some MP features.
In that article, Brad clearly states that the main problem with Steamwork is the requirement of having the Steam client installed and launched with the game.
So what you're saying to me is that there is a difference between:
1. Buying Elemental from a brick 'n mortar, or Amazon, or D2D, or to hell with it Steam, and then be forced to use Impulse for multiplayer and updates?
2. Buying Civilization 5 from a brick 'n mortar, or Amazon, or D2D, or to hell with it Impulse, and then be forced to use Steam for multiplayer and updates?
its 2K's decision, not valve's.
There's a difference because you don't need Impulse (the store) for the multiplayer and updates for third-party games. There's a difference because you will need Steam installed to simply run the game. There's a difference because if you were to buy any Stardock published games from retail, you never actually have to install Impulse at all.
Seems like a fairly significant difference.
I'm not arguing the perspective of 2K, Firaxis or Civilization as a series. Your original comment implied you wouldn't participate with Civ5 due to the deal struck between Valve and 2K to use Steamworks. From a purely business point of view I can totally understand that you would not want to favour Impules's direct competitor. That I totally understand.
I was arguing the point that if you really are dropping Civ5 because of the inclusion Steamworks then that is a little hypocritical due to the requirement of Impulse for Elemental (as specified on the product page). Like Civ5, Elemental will be available through brick 'n mortar, Amazon and other locations (I'm assuming) yet to participate in the community and receive patch updates, an Impulse account and installation will be required. How is this different to Civ5? It's NOT.
I think I've made pretty clear my reasoning. For me, it would be like the CEO of AMD buying Intel based CPUs. It's hardly hypocritical.
Civ V's success comes at our expense. Thus, I don't want to support that. I'd feel the same way if it were being sold exclusively at Walmart and I was CEO of Best Buy.
yep.
What are you talking about? Where have I slagged on Steam or Steamworks? Which part of "Steam is a good system and Steamworks is a good SDK" is considered slagging?
I'm supporting you, Frogboy. However I must point out that while you might not be 'slagging' Steam/Steamworks, you aren't painting them in a very positive light.
I like Steam. And as a developer, I appreciate what Steamworks provides. However, I do not want to be lending my support to something that is clearly designed to turn the PC into a closed platform.
If I make a game for the iPhone, I understand that I have to sell it on the App store (as a practical matter). But as a PC developer and consumer, I don't want to see the PC become a closed platform.If you take Steamworks to its logical conclusion, then in 5 years, the PC platform will be closed. If you want to make a PC game that will see a reasonable audience, you will have to sell it on Steam and accept whatever requirements Steam insists on. We already have people trying to pressure us to sell our titles on Steam (even though Steam takes about a third of the revenue on any title sold on it).Let's be realistic here, in 5 years, if Steamworks and Steam were to completely dominate the market, there'd be no real reason to have games at retail. Putting games at retail is expensive. Think that's a great thing for consumers? Think again.
He's definitely not 'slagging' them though. This could be considered the most negative comment about them Frogboy has made. Though I may not be entirely up to date on what 'slagging' entails, I don't think this is it. I would of thought there would be more unsupported statements and wild accusations.
Steamworks is architected according to their business model. Prior to Steamworks, if you wanted that kind of functionality (matchmaking, accounts, DRM, etc.) you had to pay $ per unit (whether it be to GameSpy or SecuROM or whomever).
Steamworks pays for itself by bundling the store.
I don't object to Valve doing that. I object to Steam fans who assert that it technically had to be done that way. It didn't have to be that way.
As a greedy capitalist, I am continually impressed with Valve and their execution of Steam. At the same time, I am a lot less impressed with major publishers who don't seem to care about the logical ramifications of what they are doing.
When I make an iPhone game or a game for the Xbox 360, I understand I'm making a title for a closed platform. There are pros and cons to a closed ecosystem. The PC, by contrast, is currently an open ecosystem and there are some tradeoffs to that (hardware compatibility, piracy, vastly different system capabilities, etc.).
If anyone, Steam, Impulse, what have you, were to gain an insurmountable marketshare, then you would, as a practical matter, have to sell your title on that platform and be forced to adhere to whatever standards the platform owner decides to issue.
This isn't theory. It has already happened repeatedly. Next time you lament that games don't come with nice manuals I can tell you precisely why. The largest retailer decided, on their own, what the box size would be on games (and DVDs and music for that matter). Everyone had to follow suit. There isn't some industry consortium on box sizes. One retailer decides what the form factor is based on what is best for them (shelf space). And this leads to all kinds of unintended consequences. It doesn't make the retailer or Steam or what have you "bad". It's not "slagging" to point this out. It is the consequence of market share in a free market.
Consumers are rarely aware of these consequences. But the producers are (or should be).
Major publishers still have the leverage and clout on the PC to make sure that they maintain control of their own experience on their own games. But that won't necessarily always be the case.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but aren't console games a higher price at release ($60) than PC games ($50) since the consoles, as frogboy says, are a closed market and can take a piece of the profits while PC games are an open market? Isn't Civ V a step in that direction, ie you HAVE to use steamworks while running the game?
when spore came out, it cost $60... or you could buy the uber edition for $80
I find all this fear of Steam becoming a big evil empire kind of funny.
It's already a big empire. Impulse is the Linux to Steam's Windows.
Being afraid that Valve will control all publishing is silly. You know what happens when they overstep boundaries? Consumers and developers can easily move to consoles. It's already happening for the most part. Valve is not stupid enough to destroy the PC gaming industry. Please give them some credit.
I feel like I'm in a Linux forum on a thread bashing Windows. There are plenty of valid points, but they are all ultimately meaningless. Steam, like Windows, doesn't play fair. They bundle their store with everything, and throw irresistible deals in your face every time you close a game or use their community features. That's just smart business. It's fine and dandy to take the high and mighty road like Linux does, but as a consumer, the bottom line is this: if it works, I'll keep using it. And that's where Steam is.
For example, check out user opinions on reddit:http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/ab3c7/steam_has_officially_reached_the_level_of_a_drug/
On civfanatics, most of the people opposed to Steam are opposed to digital distribution in general.
Locking in Civ 5 with Steam is just a smart business decision by both companies. Steam gets a must play exclusive, and 2k gets the massive playerbase of Steam and a proven and tried platform, with reasonable DRM. Having Civ 5 blasted in the face of every Steam user after they close a game for months at a time couldn't hurt, either.
The only way I can see Impulse competing is if you guys get more aggressive with your tactics. I hardly buy anything from Impulse other than your exclusives, because I have no reason to visit Impulsedriven.com. Steam, I open every day so I can play TF2 and chat with my gaming buddies. Steam also has much better prices and sales on triple-A titles. I mean, I got Borderlands and Bioshock 2 for $33 a piece ON RELEASE.
Don't read my post as hating on Impulse. I actually like it as a consumer, but I just have so few reasons to use it as my main purchasing platform, and I think that's true with a lot of gamers in general.
Ubisoft games are all $60 now on all platforms. Steamworks is not a step in that direction, publishers like Ubisoft are.
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