http://store.steampowered.com/news/3792/
I wonder if this means Brad Wardell will stop working with Civ V.
I just can't support DRM, that while not TOO bad, helps enforce a near-monopoly. This may be a blow to the other DD providers- as this is the biggest game to do this so far.
Hopefully EWOM is everything I want, because now I'm relying on it.
(Note: I do use Steam, I just won't support being forced to use it on non-Valve products)
It is a tough situation for conscientious consumers in the game industry lately. Quite a few newer titles are getting away from the "consumer ownership" style, traditional purchase model, and going toward the "consumer license" marketing scheme (scam). No longer to you pay money and purchase a box of software for your own use, as you see fit. Now you "license" the use of game software for use only in specific fashions laid out in the EULA (and on the box) and have limited technical rights to your purchase.
Added to that, companies throw in online DRM to use games even in single player mode ... which, if you dig through your EULA, there will be a clause about your "purchase" discussing what happens if the servers go down (temporarily or permanently - Hint: You are screwed out of your "purchase") which does nothing to stop actual gaming Pirate groups. All these DRM measures do is make more hurdles and hoops for paying customers to go through, some of which people can (and do) easily argue, take away your previously accepted rights as a game consumer.
Trouble is, most people dismiss arguments against DRM as either "well you are a pirate then"; or "well you are paranoid."
Personally, I'm just pretty hard-line on people removing rights from me, to do what I feel I want to, with something I just purchased. I haven't had to call and "check in" since I lived at home with my parents ... why should I have to "check in" with a game company to be allowed the privilege of playing a game that I just gave them money for? Would you be ok having to connect to the internet and verify your purchase every time you want to watch a movie you just bought on BluRay? What if you want to put a few DVDs in your laptop case when you go on vacation, to watch on the beach somewhere one night ... should you have to ask permission to watch each DVD before you go somewhere that might not have WiFi access?
I hate any DRM that forces me to do, well, anything beyond registering my product to get updates (and I'm not too much of a fan of that, simply because hiccups can happen and things can suddenly stop working correctly - as seen with the issue of fan-made Elemental bugfix patches causing the game to stop working and give the spinny frowny face), or for older games that stop getting constant support. I usually find most up-to-date patches on sites other than the game company's site, either because they went out of business or no longer devote space on their website to ancient games I just felt like dragging off my shelf.
"Well I keep steam up 24/7, so I don't know why you complain" arguments? Well, I have Steam too ... got in a few months ago and purchased a couple games through it. Know how often I have Steam up? Only to play those games, then I shut it right back off. I don't want anything running on my PC unless I give it permission, I'm OCD like that.
I'm the person that downloads no-CD cracks for the games I purchase, just so I can load them on a laptop and not have to drag around 20 CDs in case I want to play any of the games I own, or if I want to put them in a box in the closet and not have to wade in there every time I boot up an old game that I forgot had CD requirements.
I'm looking forward to Civ V ... I'll probably get it off the shelf when I buy it (especially since there is usually no discount for D2D-style purchases compared to B&M shelf purchases - so I might as well get something physical for my money), and I'll probably break it so it doesn't require a check-in to play single-player (which of course is against the EULA, but I'm evil I guess).
Starcraft II has the same-style DRM as Civ V seems to ... you have to "check in" once in a while to verify your account to play single player. Know how many days it took the pirates to release a working copy that subverts that mechanism? -1 ... negative one days ... there were working copies of the single player game the day before release. Paying customers have to deal with stupid hoops, yet the people stealing the game not only get it for free, but they don't have to be annoyed by stupid restrictions like we do. The industry has lost its mind.
Edit: Oh, and for the sake of full disclosure ... I am paranoid. I don't even post using the same account, or even email address, that I make my game purchases through. A long while back I made some criticism posts in a beta forum for a game I was helping test, and they revoked/banned me from playing further. So ... paranoid. ... but that still doesn't make my comments any less true
To me, it's not hard to make a stand on this. How many games do you need to play at once? I did buy TF2, but that was a Valve MP-only game, for which I don't mind Steamworks on something like that- I can even see why a Steamworks-like DRM is necessary for a game like that.
SP games don't need DRM.
There's enough good stuff out there, though I don't need to "settle"
Btw the demo is tomorrow right ?
I guess where I personally have a "disconnect" with the general sentiment of this and other anti-software-license-to-use-instead-of-own threads is the fact that I see video games as "consumables". Before you flame me, hear me out.
I have two simple points to make.
1. As much as I loved (and I truly loved) the story of games like Homeworld etc. and enjoyed absolutely every second of even the grind of resource-gathering in order to make sure you have enough shit in the next mission, I have to say......all I ever do these days is look upon the boxes on my shelf with fondness associated with the memories of those classic games. Point # 2 is why.
2. I think the reason why I haven't ever re-played any of the old "classics" is because the video-game scenery changes so quickly these days. My gaming-rig gets upgraded every year these days, newer graphics chips and processors often introduce weird effects/crashes in older games even if you can put up with the "dated" look/feel some of the classics show when reinstalled. In other words, sometimes I just don't want to ruin the great memories I have associated with these classics by attempting to recreate the initial experience.
I've found, that often the amazement and awe we felt back when we were playing the original/classics was partly there because of the relatively few number of video-game releases each year and the relative newness of video-gaming in general. I remember with much fondness the "quest" series of adventure games, the original Leisure Suit Larry games (those with Al Lowe and not all about low-bro bs humour) and strategy games that were actually about strategy, long before games were about holding-your-hand and making you feel like you were in a movie. Would I necessarily want to play those games again today? Absolutely, but I don't because those fantastic memories could be tainted by (as I said above) issues introduced by todays hardware/software (I've had some older games run super-fast like they're on drugs because of the CPU's being used today etc.) and personally I'd rather have my good memories.
No I'm not saying that everyone must have my point of view. I'm simply asking for some understanding for those of us who do, because those of us with this viewpoint don't mind STEAM and other such forms of distribution because we buy, download, play and then move on. Sad, but it's the truth of the videogame-landscape these days. You can thank the ADD-generation for that......
the Monk
Since Impulse and D2D are starting to sell Steamworks games with the Steamwork component removed, this could be the best way to get Civ V.
It is.
... what? Where?
The D2D version of Civ 5 most definitely has Steamworks. In fact if you buy from D2D, they give you a *steam* activiation code for it. You download it in Steam.
Okie,cool
I've been looking at the CivFanatics forums and they're all up in arms over the DRM, as they should be. I hope enough consumers/potential buyers raise enough stink to get this crap off it. I WILL NOT HAVE CIV V on my machine if it forces me to have STEAM. Screw that, Screw them and Screw Steam.
Anyways, have a nice day before my blood pressure goes up anymore.
The main reason why this is evil is that this will show up as a sale of Civ V. If you want to send the message that this kind of DRM is unacceptable to consumers, you're not going to do it by continuing to buy the products.
Check the game king arthur, it came with Steamworks but it's offered on impulse and D2D without it. Same for other more recent game, cawnt remember the name right now. I'll see if i can find it.
It was mentioned here in other thread that Valve doesnt get a % for a steamworks game sale if the game is purchased on brick and mortar stores. I dont know if that's the case, but if it is it's some kind of boycott to Valve's bottom line. They get no money from it and they have to provide bandwidth for it. SP games should not have this online Steam DRM.
Wait, what!?! Which games? When did this begin? Link?
If this is true, I might get to play the latest installment of my most favored game of all time! This is huge!!!
You better not be f'ing with us
If you are.....
But wait... D2D doesn't have it's own steamworks alternative like Impulse does. So how does that work? And this doesn't change the persistent DRM checks. Ahhh.... see how much I love Civ but dislike the steam arrangement. I'm jumping at ANY hope that Civ5 might be offered in an alternative way.
It's only been done for some games. Found the game I mentioned. It's Puzzle Quest 2. On Steam, it's Steamworks enabled. On D2D they have the same release, but with the SteamWorks component removed. As such, it doesnt have any online functions. It is big, if more services like D2D do this for more games.
It doesn't matter where exactly the money goes - any sale of Civ V, in any venue, is a vote saying that this form of DRM is okay.
Steam doesn't care about the bandwidth for supporting this. Bandwidth is cheap. In exchange for this, they get a pile of new users, which looks good on the bottom line *and* they get to sell them DLC as well as other games.
While I don't have any idea what the financial terms looked like, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that Steam was paying to have Civ V as a Steam exclusive rather than vice versa.
That is what is called anti-competitiveness. If that's the case, an anti-trust case could be made.
Bah! So no go for Civ5. A steam free version requires a change to the DRM method, patch distribution....
Only, on Impulse forums will you see a thread like this. I would have prefered a normal retail copy but whatever this game will blow Elemental out of the water. I'm sure that I'll get my moneys worth.
Valve's games rock and I keep Steam installed at all times anyways. Impulse isn't DRM? What D2D, gamersgate, and EADM don't have DRM? They all manage better sales than I've even seen from Impulse so it's a bit hard to blame Steam there. Gamersgate and D2D have better sales right now than Impulse or Steam.
Might want to read the Impulse TOS, I don't see how it's any better than any other DD site out there.
The one time that I ask for a refund from Valve I got it, 100%. That didn't happen with Stardock (Impulse).
Valve offer Steamworks for free to developers - thats IMO enough motivation to use it - they dont need to pay anyone
btw.: wasnt Impulse Reactor supposed to already be released (maybe I overlooked it, but I didnt see any statement that would suggest it was already released)?
It is technically possible to rip out the Steamworks component, like in the cases of the games I mentioned. Whether D2D will do it, who knows.
I don't see why they would. Steamworks itself is the sales pitch. Firaxis/2k get features like friends lists, achievements, the Steam Cloud save game feature (which is really cool), MP lobbies, and the necessary infrastructure to support it all for $0. You're seeing so many Steamworks games this year because that is a really good deal. Steam also acts as DRM but doesn't carry the same baggage that solutions like SecuROM or Ubisoft do (while some people dislike it, Steam has broad market acceptance).
Valve gets more users on Steam, which they're quite open and upfront about being a motivator.
It's entirely possible that 2k got a better sales deal then normal to be listed on Steam given how high profile Civ 5 is, but the idea that Valve is paying them to carry it is pretty out there. There's nothing nefarious going on here; Steamworks is simply the best solution on the market for what it does.
It's up to the developer to do it. D2D can't legally change Civ 5 and release it without 2k's approval. In this case they'd need to either rip out the features Steamworks is providing (achievements, Steam Cloud saves, the friends list stuff), and either turn all that off or put something else in to do the same thing.
Why would they do this? Simple. They are going to sell less copies of Civ V with Steam than if they offered both Steam and non-Steam versions. How many less, no one knows, but it's non-zero.
Why would any company decide to limit their sales if they're not getting something in return? This isn't nefarious, it's just business. Now it's possible that they think the hit will be so small that it's not worth the time and testing to implement a different form of DRM. That's the case for a lot of Indie titles. But I don't think that's true in this case. Civ V is an ultra high profile title that will sell a huge number of copies. A 1-2% loss of sales could be millions of dollars.
I think it'd be up to the publisher (2k) not the developer (Firaxis). Decision wise.... removing the steamworks stuff might not pose much of a problem, particularly if Stardock::Reactor can replace it. I think it would be the DRM method that holds things up. I get the feeling that 2k may not easilly release thier grip. And I imagine they very much want all that user data which steam provides. If I had to guess, I'd say that 2k would rather choke the life out of something than to loosen their grip.
EDIT: I see this point frequently missed....
A motivating factor for publishers to choose steam, is that steam provides them with undisclosed user data. They don't tell us exactly what info is mined from our machines. Marketers have a great fondness for user data. The pimping of my user data is yet another reason I dislike steams methods.
Another misc point... requiring the install (and preventing the uninstall) of the steam store does NOT gain Civ5 more exposure (new players, more sales). The game would be available on steam regardless. But it does gain steam more users. It forces ALL Civ5 players to have the steam store active on thier machines. If you uninstall the steam store, you cannot play Civ5. Impulse does not work in this way.
Go back and read what I actually said. I never said that Steam isn't a digital distribution service. I said I was talking about the use of steam as a copyright method for games. This is a completely seperate issue.
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