http://store.steampowered.com/news/3792/
I wonder if this means Brad Wardell will stop working with Civ V.
I just can't support DRM, that while not TOO bad, helps enforce a near-monopoly. This may be a blow to the other DD providers- as this is the biggest game to do this so far.
Hopefully EWOM is everything I want, because now I'm relying on it.
(Note: I do use Steam, I just won't support being forced to use it on non-Valve products)
I am not a lawyer and have no interest in law. But if I am going to make claims about the legality of a thing, or the realities of the law, I should actually research what I'm saying before I saw it. It's a good principle.
That 2K response just as easily applies to any number of options. If game updating and mod handling was their primary concern, there were plenty of other options that wouldn't have required bundling a third party store with the game.
Agreed, if it just bundled Steamworks, which in turn didn't require an install of Steam, I doubt many of us would have a problem. It is most definitely the tying together of Steamworks and Steam (the store) that I have a problem. That is as blatantly copying the original issues the government had with Microsoft as you can get.
It wouldn't be nearly so bad if they just asked, "Hey, do you want to install Steam also?" I don't particularly care for that either, but it is at least palatable.
Lol ... this feels like a massive game of Fall From Heaven 2. Either you all dogpile on the leader, or there will be a winner very soon (ie closed platform).
What makes you think we haven't? You know all this whining about copies and not wanting consumers to be able to resell what they purchase isn't the first time we've heard it. The publishers of books weren't exactly happy with the idea of libraries or garages sales either, but that didn't mean they got to stomp all over consumers and get what they want if they yelled loud enough. It's clear with copyright law that copyright holders are not meant to have control over the individual copies of their work. What's not clear is the crap they keep throwing on top of it, DMCA, and all the other lobbyist wet dreams they keep coming up with.
DVDs, CDs, physical media none of them get to dink with these once it is gone, off the line and out the door. Software DVD-ROMS, CDS, hell all of them, every single one of them, want to sell you half finished products that require patches and updates or some online component so they can yank it at will, disable what they sold. And don't tell me they don't face piracy, hell Avatar is having one of the weirdest release to home setups I've seen in a bit and that movie is selling millions of copies even as its pirated to hell. I have a copy sitting in my DVD player right now, and it's not mine, it's my sisters. You know what trouble I had in getting it to play by using a used copy someone else owns. Zero problems. There is no online account that says sorry already claimed. There is no Impulse or Steamworks client that tells me i can't get a needed update because its used. Nothing that stops me from handing this to my mother and letting her see it before it returns to the original owner.
The real problem is, as I have said before, is that the industry wants to sell software as a product and a license without the protection, for the consumer, of either.
What if Steam was just the best option? What other services allow sharing game saves across multiple computers, installing to different machines, unlimited download of the game/patches, access to the community and other players from within the game, and a way for a huge number of potential clients to be reached and purchase your product? Does Impulse really offer all that?
Personally, I don't want it tied to any one service, Steam, Impulse or otherwise.
I like Impulse. I can turn Impulse completely off and still game.
Can I ask why? Other than the "Steam is becoming a monopoly" reply - why wouldn't you want a unified location where things such as mods/friends/patches are seamlessly integrated and can be accessed from one unified location,,,without having to jump to website A to get a mod, then website B for a patch, and then use third party product C to find multiplayer games?
People are complaining about spending the minimal requirements of RAM steam requires - yet pushing for having to install things such as gamespy to find matches, ...or complaining about having to spend 2 extra seconds clicking out of steam to close it - yet they want to track down patches from various websites, download them and apply it themselves...wouldn't that require more than the two seconds steam might?
Hi Nesrie,
I believe you have misunderstood me. If you read https://forums.elementalgame.com/381719/page/10/#2616059 the post immediately prior to the one I just made, you would see that I was specifically talking to Dale_ who I felt made a dubious claim. He seemed to be saying that we do not own the games we buy, we only hold licences to them. In the first post I provided the links to the court cases that have explictly ruled otherwise. The second post was an admonishment about unresearched claims.
Reading my post, you'd see I was agreeing with you.
@ KickACrip
Those steps you describe are USER CONTROL. When Steam gets control there is no other option but what Steam allows.
I "DO NOT" want any part of it.
@ everyone else
Steam is for cooking vegetables.
Are you a vegetable.
Well first off, selecting Impulse (to answer your question) would still allow you to sell it on Steam (and D2D and GamersGate and so on). So you increase the number of users you can reach.
As for the rest, Civ is primarily a single player game. Being able to access friends within game seems like a pretty minor thing (and again, they could still let those users do so via Steam or what have you). Impulse::Reactor will support this but not within the time they would have "evaluated" Impulse as an option. Not that 2K ever contacted us to find out.
But Impulse supports saving games across multiple computers, installing to different machines, unlimited download of game/patches. And point of fact, Impulse does have around 3 million active accounts. No where near Steam's number (25 million) but it's hardly a case that 2K isn't aware of Impulse -- they sell Civilization IV on Impulse.
I can't say what the "best" option for 2K is. But in my opinion, that option would be the one that leads to the most sales. Being able to sell through fewer channels with some percentage of users unwilling to purchase it strikes me as a "non best" way of doing it.
Except that the only "control" being exhibited by Valve is that you have to have the client to run the game.
In turn, you can download the game on any computer at any time when you're logged into your Steam account. You get all the same integrated client features you find off of any other Valve game. You even get free stuff tossed in with automatic updating.
To me and the PC-user base backing 75% of the digital gaming market, this is good news. I find it hilarious that all the people who had to download Impulse to play Demigod are complaining that Civ V requires the exact same thing, except with Steam. They even said that it wasn't required to be running.
Not true - even with Steam you can easily install mods to the game yourself (downloading from the mod site, and installing it yourself) - you can even turn off the option to receive patches. You can set it up to play offline, the only complaints seem to be a "prevention of a future monopoly" or the "I just don't want it installed on my computer." Oh, there's also a "I don't wanna take 2 seconds to start it up" thing.
So no I don't agree with "there is no other option than what Steam allows."
Personally, the advantages of not needing a CD to play, easily uninstalling it when I get bored and then installing it again a few months later (without having to get the CD/CD key), having access to community features IN GAME, having a centralized location where the game is, and not having to keep tabs with when the current patch is released - are all advantages I'm happy we have today.
I think most people don't like having to jump through hoops to play their single player game. Obviously, you don't consider them to be much of an inconvenience, but doing anything other than clicking the game icon to play single player is an inconvenience to me. Also, all of Steam's advantages mean pretty much nothing to me as I either already experience them without Steam or don't find them useful.
Did you look up what Copyright actually means, or did you just find a couple of specific points to try to refute me?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
What was that? Oh yes, copyright holders by law are able to exercise their exclusive rights to control copying and exploitation of their works.
That's all I do to play single player Steam games. Just double-click the desktop icon (which Steam makes for me too).
Good post...but is it possible that releasing across multiple platforms (steam, Impulse, D2D) would cause a split in the community? Wouldn't it make sense to choose one service, and then focus on integrating the community features into that? Obviously I don't know what they mean yet by "community features",,,but if it's a place where mods are released to and easily accessed and installed from - it seems like one centralized location would make the most sense.
I guess I need to wait and see what it evolves into though...
Actually if any of my friends buy an rts off of steam they can't use my custom maps. Also steam likes to make people pay for mods and such. Kind of kills some of the advantages of playing a game on pc.
@ KickACrip It's nice that you like steam, and I respect your right to want it and have it. It would also be nice for 2k to respect the right of people like myself who don't want steam.
All we're asking for is a choice, so you can get what you want, and we don't have to get what we don't want.
Why we don't want it is unimportant. What is important is that steam is not necessary and many long time players of Civ (almost 20 years for me, and I've bought every Civ game) don't want it forced upon us.
That they're trying to spin it as us being able to "...enjoy the benefits of the Steamworks..." is PR double-speak, and is insulting.
I have already explained in this thread why I don't want/need steam, but will expand a bit. Here's part of the PR doublespeak:
"...players will enjoy the benefits of the Steamworks' features included in all PC versions such as auto-updating, Steam Achievements, downloadable content, multiplayer matchmaking and more."
Auto-updating: I've done this just fine on my own. Civ already has a "check for updates" feature, and if that's not working it's simple to manually find and apply updates.
Achievements: couldn't care less for them. If I thought about them I'd think they're harmful as they'd encourage goofy play.
DLC: I look at DLC not as "extras" for those who pay more, but as having to pay more for what would otherwise be included in the basic price. I also see it as another way to get squeeze more blood from the gamer turnip. I understand why some companies to it, but don't like it and consider it a negative not a 'benefit I'll enjoy'.
Multiplayer Matchmaking: I've seen the random pickup player base. I expect Civ to have a higher quality class of folks, but still I don't play with strangers. I play with friends/acquaintances and so don't need/want this 'benefit'.
'and more': unenumerated 'benefits' don't impress me.
I see problems with steam/steamworks. I don't like unnecessary programs running. I don't like unnecessary programs installed even when they're not running. I don't like unnecessary programs occasionally calling out without my permission (zone alarm outbound control is a good thing). And I don't like having something forced upon me, especially when it benefits 2k and not me, and double especially when they try to blow smoke up my ass regarding how it's a 'benefit I'll enjoy'.
Capiche?
Really? In my experience it was pretty much the same as a regular install - you just change the install directory of the mod. And aren't third party mods still free?
It depends on how much you are willing to sacrifice for multiplayer.
I haven't heard any indication that multiplayer was even a consideration by 2K. The only advantage I see is that it makes it easier for them to have a combined multiplayer experience.
That said, to be honest and at the risk of offending someone at 2K, this isn't some indie developer without resources we're talking about. 2K is an $800+ million company. And this isn't some risky, new, RTS or FPS they're doing. It's their flagship PC strategy game and it's turn based making it even easier. And it's not cross platform so it's not as if they had multiple implementations to deal with.
Strictly speaking from a business perspective, I cannot understand their choice. And I don't mean Steam vs. Impulse or what have you. I mean the choice of using anything that forces bundling a third party store on their customers on a title that doesn't particularly benefit from the arrangement in the first place.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9168018&postcount=357
She frankly doesn't have a lot of answers on how it'll work with things like mods.
Given how important mods are to the Civ community, steam requiring the latest update while some mods aren't updated in a timely manner if at all, etc., and the fact that Elizabeth -- the person who should be informed of the how this'll work if 2k knew how it'd work -- doesn't have a lot of answers, it is not unreasonable to have concerns. I get the feeling that 2k is winging this -- the decision to force steamworks came from on high, and the devs are stuck trying to minimize losses while making it work.
If push comes to shove, civ is just one game among steam's many, and I'd be surprised if steam would change to accommodate civ. Civ changing to accommodate steam is more likely, and likely to be for the worse not better.
My apologies as it seems that I did. I did see your original message but the last one was not directed at someone in particular so I assumed it was a... wider statement directed at anyone talking about copyright issuse who are not copyright lawyers. Again, sorry!
Okay, first, wikipedia is great for a lot of things, but it's not case law and citing cases is a lot stronger than throwing up wikipedia articles. Second, i want you tp look at what you are actually saying and what i am saying. They have a rights to control copying, copying, the act of making copies. They do not have the right to control INDIVIDUAL copies. It's completely different. Making backup copies of legally obtained media, reselling legal copies of media, and god forbid, being able to use your media without asking copyright holders for permission to do so each and every damn time you want to use it, is not exploting their work. Copying their work and selling it yourself is against copyrightholders right. Copying their work and saying it is your work is against copyrightholders rights.
Copyright holders are not supposed to have control over individual copies. That does not invalidate their copyright, it just means they shouldn't have any more say than book publishers did in trying destroying libraries and garage sales. What's ridiculious is that as they stomp all over our rights as consumers, they want us to back them up and "understand" why they cover their unpolished often unfinished products in heavy DRM schemes.
It's interesting that you ask a question, but then try to sell me the answer. Steam is not valuable to me. It does not not add any value for me. I don't care about those things that you seem so enthralled about. If I buy a title from Steam or Impulse, it's because at that time it is the cheapest option for me, and it's so cheap I chose it over the physical disc, which is what I still prefer. I had no problems getting Mods for Civ IV, and finding the community driven mod was a easy as downloading game patches, the kind of game patches Stardock hordes for only registered users. The game patches that Steam can take forever to release while those not using Steam already have it.
I've been playing games for years. I don't need hand holding to hook up with my friends online. Direct IP has always been fine with me. We buy games together, we get them to work together and have played some games for years. The only value impulse and steam provide me is one, is they don't require a disc anymore (which is nice actually) and two I can download the title again if i want to with few problems (the biggest one being when one of them nolonger exists or changes their we can do whatever we want whenever we want to EULAs). Hell, some of Steam third party titles require that you have you to have a steam version of a game to use their expansion, so i could pay say 10 dollars for a game but need to spend 30 for the expansion when the store down the street has it for 5, because steam requires me to use the steam version. no thank you.
I want the choice. There is no reason why these games can't be tweaked to work with whatever format the consumer wants to use, whether it's steam, impulse or just throw in the disc and have at it. Hell there probably isnt' a good reason why someone who has a legal copy shouldn't be able to switch between them. It's just another roadblock setup to stop pirates that doesn't actually stop pirates.
I'm surprised anyone defending Steam exclusivity would try to ignore the modding issue. I presume they don't use mods?
Steam requires games to have the latest version of the game without exception. Mods, by contrast, sometimes lag behind a bit and have to be updated. My favorite mod might not work with the latest version right away.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
