In most 4x games, you can pretty much talk to anyone at any time without negative repercussions. Some games have built in the ability for the AI to refuse to talk to you, but mostly diplomacy is readily available and instantaneous in it's results.
I've played games (mostly board games I think) where diplomacy was more of a resource. It took a particular figure to initiate diplomacy, such as an ambassador and potentially the more grand the request the more important an envoy would be required. Diplomacy also wasn't free. The envoy used is out of commission for X amount of time (similar to a spy) and gaining audience for the envoy costs money in terms of greasing the right palms. I am also influenced by the way Solium Infernum has a very rigid diplomatic system (and a diplomatic request costs an action, which are of high value in that game).
The reason I bring this all up is maybe it'd be worth modeling in some fashion. I'd love to see a nerf on the trick of selling the same tech to every other kingdom. If you had to send an envoy and it took 3 turns for him in travel time, plus a set 100 gold in diplomatic expenses, then that'd cut down the ability to abuse diplomatic relations. Given Elemental already has some concept of bloodlines and the value of noble figures there, maybe modelling diplomacy could fit in there. Bob, nephew of the Duke of Bloodmoor, is your low level envoy capable of trade agreements, while the niece of the king is a high level envoy capable of war/peace treaties. By modelling it, it'd also mean if you wanted to be diplomacy heavy in a game then you have to actually spend resources to do it, not just work the diplomacy screens.
Why not a real resource ? When you research Diplomacy you earn one "diplomatic point". When you ask for an audience with another sovereign it takes time and one diplomatic point. You can even add diplomatic points to help you in your demands. When your request reach the other sovereign then the diplomatic screen opens, you can trade/etc. And when you're done you will earn your diplomatic points used after some time (it simulate the tim efor the envoy to come back".
You could trade diplomatic points, you could even add spells that would lower diplomatic points of enemies "He won't be able to call his allies for help !"
That is just a brilliant idea. for you.
Always nice when someone like your idea
I'd been thinking of two axis of diplomatic resource:
1) The type of request. As I mentioned above, more serious requests require a more serious envoy. You could think of it in terms of character level or spell. Only a level 9 Envoy can "cast" Offer Peace Treaty, but a level 2 can offer to Exchange Technology. I shied away from levels/powers in my description because it's more the core concept I wanted to stress, that some diplomatic actions require a more majestic representative than others.
2) How much you're asking for. Asking for a mutual peace treaty might take a potent envoy, but it's not a costly overture per se since both sides are getting something of value. On the other hand, asking for a free tech might require spending some of the finite amount of diplomatic goodwill you've banked over the last several turns. Similarly, denying a request from an ally for a free tech might cost you diplomatic points as a result of the insult you've shown your ally. It'd also keep allies from begging all the time since their request wasn't free as they had to pay their envoy.
It's a rough idea, but I liked the core of it . It came to mind as I was playing another 4x game and diplomacy requests were flying around and I thought that this really doesn't make sense. The wheels of bureaucracy and political machinations just don't work this way. Why shouldn't diplomatic effort be modeled somehow?
I don't know....Why should it matter that what kind of "envoy" you gonna send? The other Kingdoms/Empires should care about the power/threat level of other Kingdoms & Empires + the relationship between the sides must also have a strong effect of course. Example: If you -the player- will destroy some cities/armies/caravans/whatever of a given Kingdom, it shouldn't matter that you send a high skilled diplomat or a low skilled diplomat, they will hate you regardless. [Remember the scene from the movie called "Gladiator", when the Romans are sending an envoy to the Germans? - Perfect example regarding this.]
This is not a bad idea actually, but if we ever gonna have "diplomats" + diplomatic skill levels, it must have its limits. Example: A skilled diplomat could achieve more than a low skilled diplomat if the 2 sides are neutral basically.
Interesting idea. Especially in games with a large number of players (including AI) it should be limited somehow, so after researching a technology you can't sell it to everyone in the same turn.
The only games having diplomats as a "resource" that come into my mind are Europa Universalis & the like.
This reminds me- how are diplomatic victories going work? The wiki says you have to allies with 'players of your order'. Bit vague I thought anybody know anything more?
Because sending someone of a low level would be an insult. My wife is big on the Victorian era movies/books and in those who you sent to represent you often said as much as the message itself.
What, you send me your flunky!? I spit at you. Send me someone serious if you want the attention of our monarch. (-10 relations for the insult)
So I start reading the thread and think:
I'm not exactly quibbling with you, but it seems to me that ckessel's basic unit-dependent approach would make diplomacy a much more 'real' resource than an abstracted point system. A points schema like you describe would be even more 'real' if it were connected to specific champion units and not just the faction's flag.
Then I read ckessel's reply 2, and I'm left simultaneously appreciating his/her cake-and-it-it-too response and thinking that the game will end up closer to GalCiv2, where diplomacy is fully abstract and very simple. But I could be having an oversensitive response to Brad's recent discussion about how 'content' is still very much up in the air while the other stuff is getting close to settled.
Me, I would really, very much love to see Elemental diplomacy end up significantly dependent on champions and/or sovereigns with relevant skills and/or roles. Basic business by dispatch makes sense, especially for a long-game lover like me. But I'd have ever so much more fun with a diplomatic win if it depended on me developing specific 'diplomatic assets' (Ambassador Sarek, etc.) and using them well.
You nailed it. That expresses the core my feelings on it. Diplomacy in most games now doesn't really vary by kingdom/race since everyone has the same options (barring the +25% reaction type modifiers). If the diplomatic core were modeled somehow, particular as units...even if sort of abstract units like GalCiv2 spies...then winning via diplomacy would feel like so much more of an accomplishment and a balancing of overall resource use!
Hells yea!! Make it cost "Diplomacy" points to do any diplomatic maneuver. Give Capitar more diplomacy points, and better costs. Have diplo Techs give more Diplomacy Points (per turn?) and have things cost less diplo points.
Have the use of well-trained diplomats allow for missions to cost even less, as well as having a much higher chance of being successful (vs AI).
Great idea! And this should be the real direction where diplomacy, where actual unit is used for major diplomacy actions.
In previous posts, I've suggest allow the stockpile of Prestige points globally. Instead of introducing "diplomacy point", prestige can be used as a cost of carrying out diplomatic actions. This way, whenever you are trading (or whaterver), player need to make a decision that will hinder his population growth.
As a cost, it should be a 2 part cost. A fixed cost and a % cost, whichever is higher. So that it can scale well from teh beginning to the end of the game.
TW style diplomacy is ok, but no point systems, ugh...
I'd be quite alright with an irritation meter to punish perpetual nuisances though. After all, I kill AI players that talk to me too often for just that reason.
I like the idea of drawing envoys out of your family and other special units. I think it ties the systems together nicely. I don't really see a reason for having "Diplomacy Points" though. Why represent them with an abstract number when there are so many more interesting and concrete ways to do it, like the experience and traits of your envoy units?
I agree with you here. The only problem I see with using "actual" units, is that if you are sending them as an envoy to end a war, they can get attacked and killed. Perhaps a way around this issue, is to be able to mark a specific unit, or group of units, as an envoy (diplomat) for a specific number of turns. This could be your where you can charge the "cost" for diplomacy.
For example: I decide to use lvl X Champion as envoy (mid to upper class envoy). I get to pick that he will be an envoy for Y turns. And the conversion to envoy should cost me Z = some function of X and Y.
This cost is representative of how much effort/elegance/training/bribery goes along with your choice of envoy. This system would also mean that an envoy is finite, but you do not produce "usable" units like the Pioneer which is "consumed" upon use. Also allows the input into the system talked about above where sending a son or daughter should show that the nevoy is of more importance (and therefore cost - who would send their son to another kingdom without LOTS of goodies to play with??? ).
But a skillful envoy could avoid the negative effect of hate between nations. And he knows who to speak with. If your nation is at war you avoid speaking with warmasters, but with diplomats or politic men from the other side. That kind of things could simulated with a mix of your diplomacy level and the skill of the envoy.
Because with 20+ envoys it can become a nightmare. With diplomatics points you just have one place to track on your screen. And the end-result can be the same if each envoy has a simple "diplomatic level". (maybe charisma could also be involved ?) If you mouse over your diplo points you can see a list of what i sgoing on.
And what would be good is the fact that each time you ask for something it takes time
"I'd like to trade tech A for tech B? What do you think?"
3 turns later
"Why not, if you add 50 gold" --> answer "ok for 25 gold"
"Done"
Deal is activated, techs are traded.
In the system I put forward you wouldn't have 20+ envoys (see reply #13). I'm with the people against having yet another point system in place. It will just be another resource that is hard to get enough of early game, and then you'll have tons late game.
Well, in total war diplomats weren't allowed to be attacked by normal units. Only assasins. I think the same could apply here.
And of course, I can use the guise of Diplomacy to Start a War. Send a low level to Insult, they kill my Envoy, I declare War. I lose a low level envoy, but that was my Plan all along and you fell for it stupid.
I also like the whole draw from the Hero/Family Pool idea. It would/could actually shoehorn into the whole "Living World" aspect that the Dev seem interested in developing.
Why not have the Diplomats be already in the World, they just need someone to work for, thus you have to Feed and House them, like any other straggler, that comes to your Kingdom for shelter.
Just add that "type" of character to the world at large. They can be recruited like any other but they are Diplomats by trade and not at all Warrior based. They could serve as Low-Medium level Diplomats, early stuff. Techs, mutually protected Trade routes, minerals etc.
Then when the real heavy Diplomatic stuff needs to be addressed, you start sending in Family members. If not a Daughter to marry into another Faction, thus assuring a lasting Peace, you send your first born son Edwin, who the other faction knows, and all to well, is your favorite son, and if harm were to come to him, after sending him in Good Faith, there would never, ever be Peace among you, and they had best start defensive plans as we are COMING and YOU will be wiped from the face of the world!!!!!
But using real units to use diplo would be a nightmare.
Points can abstract things. You just create a demand on the dipo screen, it calculates the time you need, the points you need, and you wait for the answer. You could have a list of envoy that wouldn't be real units, and assign them to some tasks.
And I was speaking of stockpiling diplo points, but like food. You have a finite number of diplo points. Each time you make a request you lose points, when the request succeed then you get your point back. SO with only 1 diplo point you can only do 1 request at a time. In the end game it's a lot less micromanaging : instead of real units to track you have a list of requests and when you'll have the answer.
In fact "diplo" points aren't really a good thing. The prestige points could be a good idea. When a city has at least 5 prestige points it can use 1 point to create diplo requests (the point wouldn't be used to attract new people, it would be used for diplo). So you would lessen the number of requess : do I use my prestige to attract new people or to improve my diplo skills ? Maybe the diplo path could have a separate way to level up ? Not research points but prestige points ? Or a mix of the two ?
Depends on how it's worked. I'll leave the brainstorming of the implementation to Stardock, but there are certainly multiple variations of a "real" unit. It could be an actual diplomat unit on screen. That could get messy as someone said if you had 20 of them, though depending on how the feature is designed you might never have more than a handful, in which case physical figures are fine.
It could be abstracted real units, like spies in GalCiv2 where you have real figures and allocate them to missions, but they don't have an actual on board presence. In the old Star Wars game, um, damn, the name escapes me, but you had "heroes" like Han Solo that you could send on missions in addition to the main 4X part of the game.
I'd be reticent to abstract it to just points to spend as that really loses any flavor and becomes more like spending gold. Diplomats as figures, or an extension of royal family, could bring so much more to the game.
I can also see diplomats representing non-military ways to conquer. In Civ you could incite rebellion. In GalCiv you could absorb by culture. If you sent a diplomat to a town and ordered him to "talk to local rulers", then maybe they could help speed swaying a city to your side diplomatically. The PBM game Alamaze uses diplomats in just this way. You can take population centers diplomatically, but the bigger the population center, the more important (and expensive) the diplomat you need. Some kingdoms initial forces were heavily diplomatic, which worked well in that game because diplomats had real power and a real representation in the game. Alamaze also had a concept of the kingdom's total "diplomatic influence" of which each envoy had a fraction ("Barons" had 50%) they brought to bear. The total kingdom influence was a value you had to invest in independently of everything else. So, if you wanted to be a diplomatic force in the game, you had to invest in your kingdom's diplomatic reputation overall AND in the envoys necessary to use that reputation.
Anyway, I can imagine multiple designs that'd probably be interesting.
That is a good way around having to move envoys around. Doesn't seem to dovetail into using family ties and position in the family dynasty to increase the persuasiveness of the envoy.
Perhaps using a hybrid of the system you suggested could work:
At the beginning of the game, each player can make X number of requests for audience each Y turns. These numbers can be increased by research, however I would suggest keeping the max fairly low to avoid the issues described above, eg diplo spamming, and research sales on a giant scale. Audience (offer/acceptance/decline) and all trades/treaties resolve in the one turn. don't think the complexity of waiting turns to resolve a bargaining set would be fun.
Each player has Z diplo points to spend each Y turns (Y is the same as above). The number of diplo points can be increased throgh research. Diplo points are NOT stockpiled. They are NOT a resource to be produced. Rather your diplomatic skill dictates how many you have available to use each Y turns.
Dimplomatic skill can be some function of relationship to the soverign, charisma, special abilities, and research.
To give an example with numbers: Early game (turn 50), I have the ability now to make 2 audience requests every 5 turns. I have built up my diplomacy skill to 4 points.
I request an audience to Empire Ceasar, decide to use 3 diplo points because I want stuff for free. Bargaining goes backward and forward, and I end up getting 200 gold as a gift.
2 turns later I decide to try my luck and request an audience with Empire Kthulu, I only have 1 diplo point to use as they haven't reset yet. My audeince got declined due to lack of skill/flair/ponash.
I end up in a war the turn after, which I don't want to be in. However, I must wait another turn (turn 5) before I can request another audience, as my audience requests, are used up. (I've also used up all my diplo points, which would probably get me into a bigger war trying to get an audience using 0 diplo points (super unskilled envoy).
yea but its a video game with magic not a victorian era movie, if they wanted they could just say you can telepathically communicate with the other faction leaders. i think having diplomacy points or diplomacy as a resource is a bad idea but i wouldnt mind a civ3 and total war hybrid sort of diplomacy where you can only make contact with a faction if one of their units is within your field of view.
I really like the OP's idea (and some of the subsequent modifications, such as tying prestige to diplomacy). Let's face it: in most games "diplomacy" is really nothing more than bartering. Sure, I guess you could make the case that giving this for that is a form of diplomacy, but it is a primitive form of diplomacy at best. In the real world, diplomacy can be just as much about shared ideas, goals and mutual respect as it is about immediate gratification. What is more, the idea of diplomatic prestige (i.e., an anonymous flunky versus sending the queen or a duke) is a valid one (just watch a few episodes of The Tudors for some good examples ). As others pointed out, this will add a whole new level of depth to the dynastic system, which is a good thing as, IMHO, the better fleshed out the royal families, the better the immersion. Wouldn't it be cool to discover that your daughter has a knack for getting great agreements just on personality alone? And wouldn't it be heartbreaking to discover that she was murdered by a rival kingdom during the course of negotiations (i.e., because high level units will be involved, diplomacy will contain inherent risk to those sent on missions. It's a good way to stop frivolous diplomacy.)? Right there you've got something that could have come out of George R. R. Martin.
I also like the idea of a delayed reaction for all diplomacy. Most games seem to treat diplo as if cell phones were commonplace throughout history. Adding a delay to all negotiations (the more difficult the deal, the longer the negotiations) would give them a more realistic pace (just look at how long it took to finalize the recent round of START negotiations).
All in all, the suggested diplo changes would finally dispense with bartering and usher in a sense of true diplomacy.
Why not, each diplomatic unit could used one diplo points like huts use food. And you could use your diplo/prestige points to level up envoys. They learn through diplomacy, but they really "level up" through some thinking about what could made them better, so in an abstract view, by the use of "diplo points" that represents your overall skill and knowledge in that area.
Needs a bit of tweaking, but I like the idea.
First it would be a inightamre to get points that refresh on some defined turns. Instead of that there should be an easy way to know when you will get them back. So a list of envoys on mission and number of turns would let you know exactly when you'll get one point back (or more points if you used more of them)
I like the fact that it could lead to the kind of situation you describe : when you're at war, and short on diplo points you'll have to hold back long enough to try a diplomatic ending to the war.
It will be hard to create something really new to the kind of things diplomacy can do. Bartering, treaties, one shot help, threatening. What else ? Where Elemental can add some interesting layer is how to use diplomacy. Adding time to do diplomacy would be a good thing. It force the player to really think what he wants : because each time you negociate a pact some time passes. (and let you do some spying to know what diplomacy could give you).
I need gold !
4 turns
OK 50 but I need a unit to defend my city : lend it to me for 40 turns.
4 turns later
Ok but I need 100 gold
no only 75 gold, and you give me the unit
4 turns I can't give you that unit, but if you need help I can cast some nasty spell on your enemy.
Ok we have a deal
Gold is exchanged, spell is cast.
20 turns in total.
A country with a good spying could have proposed at the first time : "you need helkp, I need gold. I hamper you enemies, you give me 100 gold"
Ok but 75 gold
Ok
4 turns later : Done.
12 turns instead of 20.
Adding more the to OP idea here...
1. Heroes and anyone in the Dynasty tree are real units that roams the land. When it reaches an opponent's border, the player are given an option to request for an diplomatic entry (on top of the standard declare war)
2. If your opponent approves the diplomatic request next turn, the unit (& its troop) can enter the border that turn.
3. When the envoy finally reaches any city or in contact with an opponent hero, diplomatic conversation btw the 2 players become possible. The talks/bartering can then be done in a diplo negotiation screen.
4. The envoy can stay inside as long as he does not get dispelled/killed, so there aren't much micro here. 1 stack can make as many requests you need, but that stack is stuck otherwise. If there is 'supply' line mechanism, standard rule applies.
5. Prestige is one of the most common currency in diplomacy negotiation. However, this cost is reduced if it is the actual Sovereign doing the negotiation, or if the unit is high level, or if it is 'diplomat' as its profession
This mechanism should be simple enough, but will do a lot of stuff we will enjoy.
Maybe the ambassador is so bored, it has enhanced chances getting married to a foreign prince!
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