We have been pleasantly surprised at how this has worked out because it gives us the opportunity to look at seeing if we have time to do something we have wanted to do: Develop the RACES further.
The Kingdoms are made up by a single race (Men)
The Empires are made up of three races presently (Men, Trogs, Urxen).
However, with the reality being that people seem to much prefer to create their own factions, it may make sense for us to return to TWO pre-made races (Men and Fallen) and then use the resources saved to put in more content to let people make their own races.
So in the Faction creation screen, you would have a “Race” tab where you would design what they look like along with a very simple Strength and Weakness list.
Illustrating the point
One of the things we thought we would have to wait until a sequel would be to let players mix their races together when they build up their kingdom or empire. Right now, you capture a city, all the people simply become your faction (and its corresponding race).
So even if you made a race of those Avatar blue guys, when you capture a city from Pariden, the city would remain populated by Men. You would then be able to created a mixed army where they all have their strengths and weaknesses and visually look different. So you could create a true “Last Alliance”.
Now, the trade off is that the 10 factions would be made up of only 2 premade races (Men and Fallen) but there’d be enough assets available then to let players create their own Orcs or Dwarves or Elves or Space Smurfs or what have you and then let players create a mixed empire.
So Men might have a +1 bonus to say Economy. Fallen might get a +1 bonus to their attack rating. Then players could also create (for instance) Elves who get a +1 to the range of their archers or any number of other differences plus they would visually look different. From this, in post-release we could explore other ramifications.
What do you think?
I think if the AI is capable of handling the Dynasty system then such approach should be taken to enhance the races in a custom way. I am not to sure how wise it would be to make the customization completely player controlled. Maybe the Tech Tree can change in a random way using the Dynasty system depending on ones chooses. I think that the essence of the sovereign should be the "Key" to randomly(but intelligently for balance) remove or keep certain choices in the customization proses. Then after all that has been selected have the Dynasty system create a random Tech tree based on the attributes of the sovereign and the chosen race. Thus creating truly unique and different units who's history and back story can be traced all the way back to the sovereign himself.
Vision:
1. Create my custom sovereign.
2. Create my custom race using some of my sovereign's essence. (The Dynasty system will allow or not allow certain choices to be available for the custom race creation based on the choices made for the Sovereign.)
3. The "marriage" of the Sovereign and the Race will make the Tech Tree which will use the dynasty system to create the available units that can be produced and created as the buildings and cities are created.
4. Once one has the proper buildings/tech to access a unit one can further customize it by creating a custom class and customization of the units gear, looks, names, back stories,etc. The available class choices (at time of creation) should be a "marriage" of the Race and the researched tech/building. Example archery building would give choices to create range units, barracks would give choices to create melee units, arcane tower gives choices to create mages and so on and the special abilities, feats, skills will be related to the race.
5. For epic levels allow the creation of custom multi-classed units once again using the dynasty system to insure randomness and keep the game balanced.
6. The creation of custom heroes (multi race) from the sovereigns own blood (sort of demigod). *This is the already implemented dynasty system*.
The trick is to not have all the possible game resourses available as a choice during customization, but limit this based on the choices and the randomness of the Dynasty system to insure uniqueness, balance and the possibility of hybrid multi-classed units as the game developes as well as hybrid races.
Now as a consumer if I read on the box at the store there are only two races I will walk away from the game in two seconds never reading further. But if I see the word "CUSTOM". "CREATE YOUR OWN", "ALWAYS UNIQUE", etc I will read more and find out about the depth of choices and the unpredictability the Dynasty system offers, plus all the other awesome things available with the game Modding, pnp style maps or 3D maps all in the same game now that would be something I had to try out.
I love choices, customization, but not at expense of game fun and balanced game play. It does not do me any good to have pre-made races if I never play them because the ones I make custom are far superior thus making the use of the pre made races as an opponent is also pointless. However making my own and having an AI that can properly use them in game play that will make custom FUN! (One does not always have someone to play with and the AI needs to take the place of another person at a moments notice using custom content with out the AI "breaking" *Grins*
I think this idea for factions is brilliant and I think players should be able to upload their races and download other peoples so the AI will get to use these custom races.
Would it have to be a very simple list?
Could there be some specials as well as +/- bonuses?
For example
Also assuming you can make things visually smaller for races like dwarves, could we also make them bigger for ogres & trolls? (even if theyre small compared to wild trolls)
Please please pretty please with sugar on top.
I think this is a terrible idea.I want fully fleshed out lore and factions.
Personally I like a good characterful faction with a suitably indepth back-story to help me with immersion; it makes me feel I have sided with an outlook or ethic and can role-play it accordingly. I could immerse myself in a faction I designed, but for some reason I'd rather have a back-story developed by a writer rather than my own head.
I like designing my own factions certainly, but not at the expense of stock choices.
I kinda agree with this. I like playing as a custom faction in must the same way I like to make a custom sovereign based on my previous DnD characters; but I also like playing -against- the pre-made factions because they are typically more fleshed-out and 'balanced' when compared to player made races/factions. Personaly, I like to be immersed in the lore as I play as I usually like to roleplay rather than min/max my race in order to force a quick victory. I think playing against a race of smurfs or if it ends up like Spore; penismonsters, would break any immersion for me.
I'm sorry but Trogs and Urxen are what exactly? Since I don't know I sure wouldn't vote for them. "Men" sound so boring. Stereotypically middle of the road too. The factions - Pariden, Tarth, Capitar, etc. mean what to us? Those who don't know the background or anything (just here to test a game). This is my point. Of course I'm going to choose something I can make, cause I may just make something to suit my mood/playstyle.
Who's the warlord? Who's the turtle/defender/builder type, etc. Who's the heavy trader? Who's the research nerd?
TO me as of now, factions are just hollow names(just like races). Something to be filled in later. I wouldn't put any stock in the poll at all. It's too early. Of course, E is going to be moddable. Somebody is always going to mod something. BUT if you make factions interesting enough, people are going to have favorites that are standard issue.
I have created my own races, factions, sovereign to prove that functionality works and did not crash. I still go back to too early to tell.
You've articulated my sentiments far better than I could.
Frankly, I had a lot of expectations about this game, and this original post is unbelievably disappointing--and probably disingenuous (in trying to pass off short-cuts as giving more options) as well.
I think it is possible that everyone is over-reacting just a bit to the OP. I know that forum communities tend to grab any little developer tidbit and run with it despite not having all the context or a good understanding of the actual intent of the post.
In my opinion, we should just calm down and try to suggest options instead of throwing out allegations of Stardock trying to cut all the races.
The way I read the OP, is that Stardock could focus their efforts in other places instead of making up more unique races. Instead giving the player more tools to use in creating a race (including art assets I would imagine). If 8 out of 10 players aren't even going to use the stock races then why dump alot of time into them.
That said, there should be diversity for the AI. And I assume that the AI will use the user created races/factions that have been saved (they did in Gal Civ 2). So you might end up playing against the super magic focused wizard people you created and won with last game.
I too would like to see a lot of differences between races, but I will probably never play a stock race in the game (except if the campaign forces you to be a stock race). So I would prefer to have time spent making customization even better and if they have time to add more complex multi-race handling. Even better.
I think one of the reason for prefering our own faction is the lack of charisma of the existing ones. They all look too similar (at least, human factions). Try to make them more special, more different.
And as someone has stated before, people want to create their own faction, but love to play against elves, orcs, dwarves, and so on, so you should consider to keep the factions you have created, but giving some flavour to them, making them more unique (different visuals, different buildings, etc)
It took me a few reads to get what the OP was getting at - and that is because the tradeoff decision he talks about isn't linked to the poll.
People are not attached to the existing factions. Because of this, we are taking away stock races.
Huh? If anything, to me, this means take away stock factions, or add in more races to make the factions more different and memorable.
I am all for custom factions. I like the idea of having my own Kingdom be mine. BUT unless I can mess with the appearance of my race to no end, and have a lot of different options for a race editor, I'm going to ignore it. I would much rather have people mod in their own races then be able to do a slipshod job of it on my own.
We are trying to create a living world, but because we are not basing it on a world we already know - even if its stock fantasy, we have no attachment to any part of it going in. I'm rather worried that I'm going to get into a match and just reference my AI opponents by their color, and not be able to tell the difference between two of them.
"However, with the reality being that people seem to much prefer to create their own factions, it may make sense for us to return to TWO pre-made races (Men and Fallen) and then use the resources saved to put in more content to let people make their own races."
As far as I'm concerned, I am discontent and cautious and I don't represent the other posters here, but they seem rather discontent and cautious. He clearly stated in other words, he's seriously considering that our interest in customizing our own factions means we don't necessarily care for the current lore ones. As others have stated the feelings in my sub-conscious, this Journal is suggesting a large reversal on their part.
If 8 out of 10 players aren't going to the use stock races, doesn't mean (and doesn't matter) if they aren't going to play them, but rather, they're going to have nothing to play against! Think about what you said! I never, ever played any of the stock races in Galactic Civilization 2 and I don't remember a single video game requiring me to design custom stock races to play against. . .
I'm down for implementing new game mechanics to flesh out our own factions and the lore ones, although, it's already in the beta, but I'm myself surprised. I thought between publishing Elemental's own novel of sorts and this long length of time passed, the idea of removing the other Fallen races to be an impossible notion.
I want them to keep the current factions, keep the current races and flesh them out.
The problem here is, we haven't even accessed the Empire factions yet and whether or not you implemented the other two Fallen races, haven't presented any unique characteristics concerning them. Therefore we are without knowledge to make a public opinion on whether y'all should remove the current lore-oriented races in favor of our own, which I think would be a huge mistake.
Races and factions are something I always thought the Disciples series did the best. Most fantasy strategy games make the mistake of not focusing on the lore part and just throw in a mix of generic fantasy races. MoM did that and AoW:SM did that and neither game had any cool factions that had any kind of story behind them.
I'd love to see three to five fully developed factions that would ooze coolness - with the option of customizing them to some extent. What I would not like to see when playing multiplayer is some blue pimple faced funky race with weird stats that don't make sense. And that will inevitably happen when you give too much power to the player.
Sins of a Solar empire has really cool factions too. I wish Elemental would take this approach as well instead of trying to have too much freedom and falling flat with uninteresting factions that have no lore.
edit: PLEASE NO ELVES OR DWARVES!
I just want to say that this poll doesn't mean anything. The current factions aren't finished - hell, they're not even started - they're an icon with maybe one trivial difference from the other factions. Of course we're going to make our own factions with dozens of strengths and weaknesses to pick from, there's really no other choice. When the default factions (and races) are more complete and distinguishable I expect this to change - of course I fully support the idea of custom races, but don't skimp on the default races and factions, because people will actually use them once there are real differences between them and the choice has some meaning.
Whatever will give people the most flexibility without requiring modding skills. I would like to get into the modding, but am also a little leery about my success.
I definitely think the idea of having mixed race armies is a plus, but the fact that units are designed mitigates that somewhat. Yes I understand that having the army with Elven archers with a racial bonus on archery, etc etc does add some cool flavor, I also think that having some truly unique units per race would enhance this. Or perhaps there will be unique units based on unique racial techs....nm I am almost sure that is the direction you are heading with this. If so, great! (If not, why not? lol)
I hope at the very least that some 3D models for other races are either available in the canon or easily importable from mods. I realize there are likely to be problems displaying different armor and weapons equipped on lots of different races - I could live with that, The current plan to have only men and fallen as races - there are things about it I don't like, but I think being able to create mixed armies outweighs any of my concerns. Expansion packs and modders will flesh out the race options I am sure...overall - I like the direction. (at least in theory, we'll see how I like it in practice!)
It would be interesting to know why those polled believe that. I personally prefer to create my own race not because I'm interested in role playing, but because it allows me to play the game I want to play it. (And usually gives me some advantage). I'd actually prefer much more distinctive factions. (Really, factions a la MoM, but that's not on the cards.)
After rereading the OP a couple of times, I guess I don't really get what Draginol is trying to say. I think he segway-ed badly, because I'm not getting how the redoing of races is supposed to effect factions. Of course I want mixed kingdoms, but I basically want interesting, balanced factions right out of the box even more. Ultimately my fear, unfounded or not, is that there will be no difference between "race" and "culture", that an "elf" will always be a arrow slinging bandit type, a fancy swordsman or a mystical druid and never really "break out" of their hardcoded culture. Differentiate opposing forces by culture rather than race is a really bold move for a fantasy game, and frankly, I think that's a whole lot more interesting.
Actually, I do like the idea of consolidating the races down to two and instead making minor "subraces" out of those races with different attributes. Relying on player input during race creation without having solid, well-developed races, however, I don't think is such a great move. I might play around with making my own race, but I'd much rather stick with something well-made and well-thought.
Im readin all yo comments but Im still confused!
People sound like they are talking about factions when they say races and that they want many factions or many races and all of them to be well devloped.
Do people mean like Gal civ where factions equal races or like in Civ where factions are 'subraces'? Or do they mean races as in dragonkin and lizardmen?
In Civilization there's only 1 "race" (Humans) with dozens of factions.
In Galactic Civilizations there are 12 races each representing a faction.
In Sins of a Solar Empire, there are 3 races each with several different factions.
In Elemental, we have 10 factions which are made up of several races that are broadly outlined into natural and unnatural (Fallen) groups and then aligned between two philosophies (kingdom and empire).
That's a mouthful and is what we're looking to clean up. The question is, in what direction should we clean it up towards?
DFWAB. Don't Fix What Ain't Broke.
For me the most important thing is that the factions (not only the one that you play, but also the ones that you play against) should be really different - not just a diplomacy bonus or a research bonus, but different buildings, units, technologies etc. that encourage the player to use different strategies when playing different factions, which is good for the replay value. It's not important if the customization is done on faction level or on race level (although the ability to have cities of different races would be nice).
I'd strongly support the proposed idea of allowing many different races with the potential for mixed-raced empires and armies through conquest; this was a great feature in games like MoM and Age of Wonders that has since been forgotten.
A neat twist to go with this could be allowing a spell or racial/sovereign ability to massacre a conquered city's population. Perhaps a powerful necromancer could capture a city of Men and change them to Skeletons overnight? > Creating a newly designed race using Essence would be another one.
You cleaned it up pretty tidily right there. It really isn't all that complicated, except for how the word "race" is sloppy in modern terms but apt for a fantasy setting.
p.s. I'm trying suppress my paranoid fear that the marketing/multiplayer/modder conspiracy is steadily dumbing down the game. It's just hard sometimes.
I'm not real bent for the faction setup or anything, but if you strip it down to one generic human and fallen side with just the magic decided by what kind of channeler you picked, it's going to take a long time for modders to fill in the gap.
Of course, if the difference between one faction and the next is a couple unique techs, I'll miss my own shit about as much. Civ style setups have always pissed me off. Even when they end up playing differently because of an early advantage or something, it's still bland.
Then again, Civ is monolithic among the 4X crowd, so my viewpoint obviously isn't shared, so maybe everyone else will miss them even if they aren't significantly different sides. In any case, I'm going to further my education in an attempt to create my ideal undead hordes and bury the land in reanimated corpses.
Edit: Assuming I like the combat system. Forgot the all important qualifier, I need beaten with a wet noodle, or maybe a feather.
Taking a page from the game, Master of Magic, that trumps Age of Wonder, Warlords, Heroes, and all games in the same vein so far..
5.1) High Men - With Paladins Rule 5.2) Barbarians - Fast Growing, Axe Throwing, Berserk Hordes 5.3) Nomads - Tough Rangers, Horsebowmen, Flying Griffins and Extra Gold 5.4) High Elves - Extra Magic and Longbowmen 5.5) Dark Elves - Magic Power Incarnate 5.6) Lizardmen - Ideal for "Small" Land 5.7) Halflings - Mighty Midgets 5.8) Trolls - A Regenerating Army That You Can't Stop 5.9) Klackons - Kill them on sight? You decide . . . 5.10) Dwarves - Productive Workers, Deadly Hammerhands 5.11) Draconians - Flying Firebreathers 5.12) Gnolls - Least favorite! 5.13) Orcs - A Well-Balanced Race 5.14) Beastmen - Another Well-Balanced Race
Notice the variation of races and how the game has some fun with the canon races. I agree with the comments before that races with characteristics in their AI and Ethos makes for a colorful experience. You could get a similar effect also for factions based on psychological bio to guide their AI, however, races with specific units, ways of building would help guide and justify design.
As far as modding, I'm not into the idea of modding a race unless it's simple and interesting. Otherwise it's time wasted. It's a surprising amount of fun mastering each race and their querks, and basing your style of play on that.
I've said this once before, but I'll say it again here.
The game needs distinct, separate factions. And no, simply adding something like "+1 to unit production" to a faction does not make it distinct. Unique abilities, unique items, unique units, unique buildings please. The different factions should play differently!
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