We have been pleasantly surprised at how this has worked out because it gives us the opportunity to look at seeing if we have time to do something we have wanted to do: Develop the RACES further.
The Kingdoms are made up by a single race (Men)
The Empires are made up of three races presently (Men, Trogs, Urxen).
However, with the reality being that people seem to much prefer to create their own factions, it may make sense for us to return to TWO pre-made races (Men and Fallen) and then use the resources saved to put in more content to let people make their own races.
So in the Faction creation screen, you would have a “Race” tab where you would design what they look like along with a very simple Strength and Weakness list.
Illustrating the point
One of the things we thought we would have to wait until a sequel would be to let players mix their races together when they build up their kingdom or empire. Right now, you capture a city, all the people simply become your faction (and its corresponding race).
So even if you made a race of those Avatar blue guys, when you capture a city from Pariden, the city would remain populated by Men. You would then be able to created a mixed army where they all have their strengths and weaknesses and visually look different. So you could create a true “Last Alliance”.
Now, the trade off is that the 10 factions would be made up of only 2 premade races (Men and Fallen) but there’d be enough assets available then to let players create their own Orcs or Dwarves or Elves or Space Smurfs or what have you and then let players create a mixed empire.
So Men might have a +1 bonus to say Economy. Fallen might get a +1 bonus to their attack rating. Then players could also create (for instance) Elves who get a +1 to the range of their archers or any number of other differences plus they would visually look different. From this, in post-release we could explore other ramifications.
What do you think?
This is what I was talking about as well.
Additional notes: Whatever we end up having later on in an expansion or EWoM 2., we need to have predesigned factions, else the AI will have serious problems imo. Also, custom factions/races shouldn't be better than a predesigned faction/race. It's important. Creating a custom race must be fun, but it must have its limits regarding balance.
The only input I would give would be to make sure bonuses and weaknesses are BALLANCED!
Take for example, Gnolls from MoM.
Horrible. Barely any strengths, many weaknesses. The only time I ever played them was when I wanted a challenge.
When making the race designer, place only abilities that MATTER.
You know when you take over a city you should have a choice between keeping the population that is there or (killing/magicly altering them to turn into your race) so that if you dont like how one race looks like you press "Kill Current Citizens" or "Magicly Alter current citizens" i would press kill or magocly alter most the times oh a "Enslave current population" would be cool as well coz if i make a race that hates every other race be it kingdom or empire i dont think it would go if they had cities full of other races coz the leader would be like "i thought we aim to destroy everyother race but ours why do they live in our city" "Sorry sir its in the game we just cannot get rid of them might i suggest a mod" "yeah lets go with that" so i would like it optional for my EVIL custom race and my traditional(in a sence that they hate other races being in their citys...unless they are slaves) race would be a good thing just a bit of code i guess i dont make games might be lots of code still i personaly hate it wene i got other races in my city
I'm pretty sure he ment take over a city and it's population stays what it is. Now considering you made your native population at your starting city, you now have a city of a different race to use and make units from, but they aren't mixed. I'd almost garantee that's the way he ment, especially since it's a lot easier to code it that way.
So when he says enough customisation assets, then does he mean there would be the opportunity to -
(1) Choose skin colour
(2) Choose head shapes / body builds (e.g. bestial head, red eyes, muscular body, green skin = orc)
(3) Choose ear shapes (slender body, pointy ears = elf)
(4) Scale the models (small = halflings)
(5) Partially scale the models (short but wide = dwarfs)
'Cos that would be cool
From a earlier thread someone had mentioned it would be nice if the humans took over an 'elven' city, and then with time, the city wouuld eventually produce half-elves(the mix of humans an elves). I think that poster had it right(what I would like to see also, but might not be possible). There should be many options when 'conquering' a city. Raze, enslave, assimulation, tension among the different races(for some), etc. Some populations should be hard coded for not being able to interbreed(elves and orcs), some should have the option to interbreed (like humans with elves, orcs, gnolls, etc). The reasons for this can be varried like racial enmity, some races wanting to be 'pure', genetic disposition, magic, lore of game, etc. So some cities would remain with the same racial make-up before and after conquering, some cities would be mixed race with diversity(units we could use also), and some cities would remove existing populations to the outskirts of the 'civilized' part of town, and some cities would get a whole new racial identity through replacing them(genocide for the inhabitants)with a completely different race or races in a current 'inventory'. Glad were at least discussing these options.
Another big thumbs up for Stardocks concern for their product and willingness to relook at a big picture items like this(no matter if it make it in or not).
<snip>
This is fantastic. This is one of the first things that I'd been intending to try to mod in, but if it's in the game as stock then so much the better. A lot of the other things that have been suggested in this thread is stuff that I'd also love to see.
Yeah, I'm not sure I would interpret that poll the same way. Even if I play my own custom race, I definitely want the other players' races to have interesting flavour, not just be identical stock races.
I like the work you Devs do, so I'd like to see your provided races. I think your races would make a more... complete/integrated world.
I'd also like to be able to import races made by others, and make my own, and be able to play against them in my games.
So yes, I want best of both worlds.
Given that there are only so many things you can do and if you provide races then something else will have to give, I'd still like to see your provided races. I'd rather delay release a week or so for this.
As an aside, I'll probably only ever play a customized race/faction myself.
Customizing my own race is good, but I don't want to customize the AI races. I liked the mixed population in MoM. It simply makes sense. The approach of Master of Orion 1 is logical too, but killing all people on a planet (or in a city) is too cruel. Even if I were evil, I would rather turn them to slaves, so I can use them. If you conquer the city and all the people become your race - it is not only illogical, but it also makes your empire oversimplified.
And if you look at Earth, in the areas where two cultures meet (even if they fight against themselves) the population is mixed. Good example is Israel and Palestine.
Ultimately, I just want to create a race of Sea Bears or Arachnatigers. I agree with most of what people have been saying, that the AI factions should be there as opponents, because I don't really want to create a faction (which I will end up becoming attached to and loving) just so that I can crush it in my fist.I absolutely love the concept of mixed races within one city, I think it adds a really cool concept and creates even more customization, and with enough factions it would make each game incredibly unique. By the end of the game, your mixed culture would be different every time you played, and that would be something that kept me coming back for another game, or browsing through user created content to see what new races, factions, etc. were being created.
Getting more tools to make more races would be nice indeed. I thought for a moment that I agreed with those saying that more AI races were indeed needed in order to flesh out the AI opponents, but I no longer think that.
How an AI responds and acts may very well be implemented in an acceptable way without having races per se. For example, ther may be two races of men where one is very much cultural and spiritual - and peaceful - while the other is highly aggressive and favors the sword more than anything else. We need not have races in order to have this distinction.
I also do not share the sentiment that races make a fantasy game. Races and such are very cool to have, but we may as well have two main races. I see not why having ten races would actually be better than two races. As long as the factions are recognisable and well thought out I care not what race they have.
I agree with this. The lack of diversity in standard races is already my biggest objection in this game, and the new proposal gives the impression that the developers are simply trying to take short-cuts in the guise of giving more options to the players.
In GalCivs I always created my own race. I NEVER used the prebuilt ones.
-Phal
I believe that I fall into the category of wanting everything. I would like to see multiple (more than 2) pre-made races AND the ability to make custom races AND have the ability to take over/control towns/units of different races AND eat cake.
I understand the "Zeal Appeal" that an active modding community can have for a game, but I am representative of the guy who plays with what is in the box at release. So I'm asking that, as a design philosophy, no aspect of game play rely heavilyon modding. I want modding to be fully supported ( a stardock strength), but not relied on for fun.
I saw this 'late,' but I'm glad to see several folks typing much along the lines I would have. As usual, PigeonPigeon says much that I've been thinking and does it a bit more clearly than I probably would have. I completely agree with MagicwillNZ:
I might not be exactly the same type of gamer that Mandelik describes in reply 43, but I very much share a conviction that strong, well-connected back story is invaluable for immersion, and if done extremely well it should also enhance replayability. I also fully agree with Goontrooper's list of priorities in reply 48.
Elemental could be the first game that gets me reliably interested in mods, but I am distinctly worried about how often devs seem to brush aside design ideas, including some of their own, with a Marie Antoinette-esque "let them use mods." I want the game to be a full meal in its own right. Mods are for dessert.
First question. Despite it's possible stupidity...
Are Draginol and Frogboy one in the same person? The OP was posted by Draginol and many have answered using Frogboy.
On topic.
"So in the Faction creation screen, you would have a “Race” tab where you would design what they look like along with a very simple Strength and Weakness list."
This seems to have two varying/opposing issues. Creating a "Custom Race" would be very cool, but being restricted to "very simple" elements cuts down on diversity.
I totally understand why it should/must be based on a "very simple" principle. Otherwise some "Custom Races" would simply outshine others and that always leads to, as mentioned, "I only play them for the challenge". The question then becomes will a strictly visual difference between "Custom Races" be enough. This assumes the use of only 1 Tech Tree and 1 Magic System per Faction?
Another BIG deal for me is MP. How, or IF, "Custom Races" would be allowed? Do I get to download and analyze any "Custom Race" another player wishes to use in a MP game? How about if 6 were "Custom Races" in an 8 player game? Can I play my own Custom Uber Race in MP?
OR is MP to to be "Stock" Man vs Fallen exclusive play?
"You would then be able to created a mixed army where they all have their strengths and weaknesses and visually look different. So you could create a true “Last Alliance”.
The really interesting thing here would be after the capture of a "Custom Races" City and graciously allowing them to maintain their racial identity, I then get access to their, as in (use the resources saved to put in more content to let people make their own races.) very specific Military and Magical technologies/Research, be it Weapons, Defensive and or Offensive Equipment. (unless of course they destroyed both during the final Siege.)
Or are we to face the fact that Men as a Faction and any associated "Custom Races" will all draw from the same Pool of Military/Research Tech and Magic thus once again reinforcing the idea that the differences in Races are but a cosmetic one?
Im readin all yo comments but Im still confused!
People sound like they are talking about factions when they say races and that they want many factions or many races and all of them to be well devloped.
Do people mean like Gal civ where factions equal races or like in Civ where factions are 'subraces'? Or do they mean races as in dragonkin and lizardmen?
???
Also, I approve of Wintersong's avatar yet again.
If you are creating a custom race to play then it seems pretty likely that you will like that more than the other options. If you didn't prefer your own creation, then you'd pick something predefined.
Plus the poll seems like it'd be horribly skewed at this point - the default races aren't really developed, we're specifically looking for things that break/crash, we are (largely) going to be a group that likes to find and push every button...
I think by the end of GalCiv 2 (ToA) that the individual races finally had enough character with their own tech trees that they started to show their personality. Before then, though, it was selecting a race for the bonuses or customizing your own that was the real driving factor. I'd love to see some very deep history surrounding the different races/factions that would make me really want to play as them vs. just using their pre-made abilities.
Here are some ideas that might help flesh things out:
*What if you removed the ability to customize your race/faction near the end of the beta test to help improve the built-in ones specifically? Testers would only use the built-in races to help refine/tweak them further.
*Why don't you include additional art assets and races as downloadable content later and focus on improving the experience currently with just two races?
*Once you develop the story line more and add in more content, run the above poll again. It's hard to make a choice when there isn't much info to go on other than a picture and very brief description.
*Why can't The Fallen be good, too? If men can be both good and evil, why not The Fallen? It might help to explain this concept more. It might also make it more reasonable when a Fallen city goes under the control of good men that it could/would join that new faction.
I would have to say it is great this is getting re-examined.
One other idea I'll throw out:
How many of you remember Age of Mythology? It introduced the concept of leveling up your empire and making a choice between one of two Gods (depending on your race). Could Elemental have something like this? I'm not sure if it would be based on time, production, research, etc. or maybe even vary from race to race. But the value in this is that you aren't locked into one specific strategy for the game (unlike its predecessor Age of Kings).
For instance, if I picked a race it might have some pretty general abilities. When some trigger happens (research, event, certain population size, magic spell, etc.) I would get to choose from a group of rather significant bonuses. It would add a layer of strategy while also increasing re-playability and variety. It would also help the new player to not feel locked-in or overwhelmed by making a choice right up front.
Thoughts?
Yes, Brad (Stardock's owner & senior dev) has two forum handles. The hints I've seen in the old lore are that Draginol is Froboy's evil twin. Sometimes I suspect that it's really Tired & Maybe Cranky Twin, on account of most Draginol posts I see are later in the day, Michigan time.
LOL! That is very devious indeed. But now the Jig is up. I will be more... something. It will obviously come to me later.
It does make one wonder though who wins the bulk of the arguments between the two...
I am really confused by this post from Stardock. And a bit exasperated.
How can we do a poll when we haven't even seen what the factions will finally be like (tech trees, faction buildings, magic, 3D graphics ...)? Just the thought that such a poll would be the basis for a game changing decision gives me vertigo.
Secondly, I don't understand what you mean with tradeoff in your post. Why can't we have the full option to customize our own races and factions, and still be presented with a few different races as basis of the game? When you speak about "resources", do you mean manpower at SD? Hope not. I thought we had agreed you were going to take the time needed on this game to get it right ...
You know what, we are now backtracking the whole debate on whether this Fantasy game should be human only or with several races. Just consider this: a lot of players want several races. If it's more work to do the 3D or whatever, well, we are ready to wait, and then applaud the result and play Elemental forever. But not selling out on one of the pillars of the fantasy dimension just like that.
But most of all, after everything SD has said on "getting Elemental right", "taking the time we need" etc, and then seeing something disastrous like this posted like it's just a small tweak ... You know what, if you want to get this fantasy game right you'd better include some really cool fantasy races. Make no mistake, it will come back to haunt you if you just include a tickbox for custom abilities and skip the fantasy in the core game.
I am all for customization, but not at the expense of the existing factions. There is no way you will be able to "make your own orcs and elves" without reverting to serious modding, which is another debate entirely. Clicking in some plusses and minuses in a short list of racial traits is about as bad as it could get. It won't even be visible once you play.
And as for the visibility, creating a new race is not about turning the skin Avatar blue. If you want to get Elemental right, then you have to work on the existing factions in the core game, and make sure that we players love these factions. That's what the Beta should be about. And could easily be about. If you had had this poll result under Beta 5 I think you should be really worried - in fact, then I think it would be time to rework some of the factions. But today I think it is too early even to know what the factions will be like.
I just hope there WILL be unique and fully fleshed out, ready-made factions and races to like. Since we are currently down to 5 good guys and 5 bad guys I'd say: the more the better.
Edit: spelling error
Yep, exactly my thoughts. [I've made a post about this already btw..] This poll should have been created later on....when all of the factions are implemented properly. [IE. All tech trees etc.] ...but even in that case, the majority of the voters would vote for the custom faction anyways. It's just charming for various reasons.
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