First off, I want to say that I know it's beta, and I know that "by definition" that implies that it is imbalanced. Having said that...
The Terrans seem OP to me.
- The Reaper is ridiculous. The thing is available early, it can jump cliffs, it's fast as hell, it's strong, it can harass your eco big-time, and to add insult to injury, it has a ridiculously strong special ability against buildings, and can take them down in no time. The effort required by you to counter this thing early game is not matched by the ease with which the Terran player can deploy this thing and harass your eco to death, as well as take down buildings.
- That Hellion is a nasty early harass unit too. It is strong against early light units (i.e. probes, drones, zerglings, basic infantry) and it is fast as hell. I mean, between the Reaper and the Hellion, the average Terran opponent can kiss the game goodbye.
- Marauders just seem overly powerful to me.
- That EMP shockwave from the Ghost just seems to royally fuck Protoss.
Protoss seem UP to me.
- The Stalker seems too weak in terms of hit points and attack (they drop like flies to Terrans), and blink seems to take a long time to recharge, where as Terrans just seem to spam the hell out of their special abilities.
- The Collossus just seems to be a totally underpowered hunk of junk that auto-explodes every time an enemy unit gets within sight range. I mean, they pop like helium balloons. Weirdly, they seem to have nerfed it even more with their last patch, where as if anything it needed a substantial buff.
I mean, the only time I see a Protoss or Zerg beat a Terran is if the Protoss/Zerg is just a way better player.
Your thoughts?
I've watched a few hundred platinum games myself (players of the caliber of David Kim), and I see reaper harass all the time, and it works, even against these pros.
What I never did, until Myles's posts, was read any forums. So I was giving you my impression of balance without knowing what anyone else was saying. After his posts, I investigated and found that many other people are saying the same things I am saying. I didn't see so much on the colossus, but I saw tons of people (not newbs) complaining about reapers, marauders, the weak stalker, etc.
Watched a new platinum game today - PvT. T teched straight to reapers. P was scouting him like crazy, knew they were coming, went early stalkers. Reaper got into P base before first stalker could complete, just like Myles says. Killed some probes, did some damage, and was chased off when the stalker appeared. But here's the thing. The T came again with 4 reapers. The protoss player had 4 stalkers defending. In fact, the stalkers were sitting right on top of a pylon. The 4 reapers came right up to the pylon, used their antistructure weapon, the pylon exploded instantly, and the reapers ran away. The 4 stalkers were guarding the pylon, and were focusing one of the reapers continuously. But not even 1 reaper died. That's ridiculous. The reapers hard counter structures, but the stalkers don't hard counter reapers. Not even building the "counter" (cough) in a 1 to 1 ratio was enough to kill a single reaper.
I wondered why no protoss ever built photon cannons to try to counter these things, and assumed that it must be unviable for some reason. I figured they were either prohibitively expensive, could not be built in time or in enough numbers, or something to that effect. In reading the forum posts today from pros, I found out that everyone agrees an early forge is just the kiss of death, and you can kiss the game goodbye.
One thing I always wanted for the original game was for the nexus to act as a pylon, allowing you to build structures near it so you're not at a speed disadvantage from the start.
-Twilight Storm
Just saw this today, between KHB (the guy who beat David Kim) and some other guy. Shows you how much trouble a top-ranked pro can have with hellions. I said above that zerg seem to have the most trouble. You will see it here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs6Ljkyd7io&feature=related
In the game you just posted, the Zerg player went straight for a second hatch. That comes with its risks. It's a bad example for balance because it's not a typical Zerg build with quick lings. The Zerg also took way too long to get a queen. The Zerg player took way too long get units out, didn't scout, and didn't try to get roaches like the commentator mentions. The Z player did something risky and got punished, it doesn't show anything other than a risky economic build with no units. I'm expecting brood lords to get a nerf to their fire rate pretty soon. Thors also deserve a buff. Infestors were the right choice against the thors though. Infestors are just soooo good. If you mass crappy rines, the get pooped on by fungal growth. If you get BC's and Thors, they'll be mind controlled and kill each other D:
I'm not saying it proves my case, I just don't know enough about the game at this point to know. But having said that, it's sort of hard to take you seriously here. You are criticizing the play of a guy that probably no one in the world can beat at the moment. Including you on the best gaming day of your life. This guy beat David Kim, twice I think. He's the JohnJames of SC2 at the moment.
It might not be the best example in the world to prove my point (I dunno), but it does show that even top ranked players can have a lot of trouble against hellions. In truth, I see players have trouble with them all of the time - especially zerg. Even when they've "played correct" and didn't commit the "mistakes" you cited above.
I still say reapers are worse.
He was playing badly, there's no question about it. They both were actually. You're correct; it's much easier to sit here and criticize them than it is to play at their level, but that really doesn't change anything. Helions hard counter zerglings, so the appropriate response is to change your units, which the Zerg player sort of did. Overall, the Terran player played much better but lost because Terran is the undisputed punching bag of Starcraft II.
1 Proton canon in base.
Zerg players have reason to complain right now. But Protos? No way.
Yeah, but they hard counter workers too, with all the splash damage, and the fact that the weapon sprays in a long line, capable of hitting a lot of stuff in 1 shot. If a couple of them get to a mineral line and fire a few shots, the entire line goes down.
Let's assume you get a few roaches out to defend. The things can still run around the roaches to the mineral line and kill a bunch of stuff with all that splash damage and range.
The problem is, they can kill stuff a lot faster than the roaches can kill them. Of course, they are faster than roaches too.
The pros on the forums were saying that an early forge is the kiss of death. But I haven't tried it, so I don't know either way.
You in the beta, Frog?
EDIT: Just saw a replay where a protoss countered banshees by building stalkers in a 1:1 ratio. The banshees won. Neither side was upgraded. I will have to look again to make sure the P was actually focus firing the banshees, but assuming that he was, is there a good reason why the banshees won that? Are the banshees more expensive or do they take up more supply? Are stalkers the correct counter for them? Etc.
hard counter workers
Everything but other workers hard counters workers lol
There is literally a choke point on every single map. 3 roaches will block off the choke point on every one of those maps except for one, where I believe you'll need 4 roaches. Helions take like 4 hours to kill 1 roach.
Let's get some data up in here
Stalker:
Properties
80
Armored
125
50
2
42
10 (+4 vs armored; +1 damage per upgrade)
Normal
1
6
So, effectively 160 health for 125 minerals and 50 gas and 2 population.
Banshee:
140
200
Light
Production
150
100
3
60
Starport
Tech lab
12 (x2 attacks) (+1 damage per upgrade)
0
140 health for 150 minerals, 100 gas, and 3 population
So, banshees cost more minerals, twice as much gas, one more population, they're much farther up the tech tree, their build time is much longer, and they're designed to be the counter to ground units. To deal with them: you need phoenixes, and at least one observer in case they have cloak. Stalkers and sentries will help, but they won't destroy them unless you outnumber them at least 4:3 I'd say.
Photon Cannon, really? I respect you quite a bit Frogboy, but you're completely wrong on this one. If you go early forge into cannons you might as well leave right then. Not only are you wasting 300+ minerals(realistically you need 2 cannons for full mineral line defense) for on early static defense that should be spent on your army, but you're making you stalkers take even more time to get out. So now, the enemy can send in 3 or 4 more reapers, and tear all your production buildings up and win the game while you try to chase him down with zealots.
The only option vs early reapers and maruaders is stalkers as protoss. Trying anything else is suicide vs a good player.
Ah, yes. But with what does your Terran player counter the early mothership rush? What do you do when you see an enemy mothership incoming at 2:05? Nothing! Haha.
You guys make it sound like Terran has some sort of uber advantage that lets him tech up to reapers undisturbed and pump out 5-10 of them along with twenty or so marauders before the Protoss player can get his first zealot.
Huh? Mothership rush got nerfed a LOOONG time ago. I hope that was a joke.
Also, I just proved how a protoss cannot get anything but zealots out by the time the first reaper arrives. I swear you pick and choose what you want to read in a post. It is IMPOSSIBLE(except maybe on the largest of maps) it get a stalker out before a reaper gets there. If you want to discount that, then please, show me your math.
It was a joke. People are making it sound like there is an actual OP rush strategy when there is none. One reaper won't do much, even if it kills a few drones, you will be able to kill it negating the damage it did to your economy. Early cannons are bad, but by the time the enemy has a reaper IN YOUR BASE, you can easily have 3 zealots or a zealot and a stalker. It takes time for reapers to traverse maps, they aren't much faster than your average infantry until you upgrade them. If you don't have enough troops to deal with a lone reaper by the time it gets there, your BO is bad.
Uhh... a single zealot does not hard counter a mineral line like a single hellion, are you nuts? The zealot can only attack one worker at a time, and he has to do a few attacks to kill one. A hellion can spray his weapon and literally hit every worker with a good shot.
A high templar could do comparable damage, but you cannot rush someone's mineral line with high templars.
That's all you had to say, you didn't need the huge chart I asked a question, I didn't make a charge that there was a problem. It's good to know that the stalkers lost that engagement because they should have lost.
Splitshadow, in reading your posts, you sound like one of those people who automatically denies any balance issue in anything when one is brought up. You were probably one of the naysayers in Rome: Total War saying that cavalry were just fine. My guess is you've poo-poo'd and naysayed every balance issue that has been brought up in Sins. Did you think illums were okay last patch?
Technically, Illums were a bug, not balance...But your point stands. A better question would have been were scouts okay, which many said were not because of crazy effectiveness vs LRF.
Well, this debate has nothing to do with me, but I'll satisfy your curiosity because my life and opinions are just so utterly fascinating. SCII is still in beta, so of course there are balance issues. I've never played Rome: Total War, nor Sins of a Solar Empire. The misconception in this thread is that Protoss is weak and in need of a buff. That's totally wrong. Protoss is the strongest race in the game, and Terran is the worst. I was pretty sure when I saw the date of the OP that it was an April Fool's Joke. Right now Blizzard is discussing how to buff Terran in the middle to late game because they lose so often. There is nothing wrong with reapers, they're just a unit like mutalisks and sentries: reallying effing annoying, but able to be countered. Helions and reapers are actually underused in pro games that I've watched. Tanks have been nerfed hard, thors suck, sensor towers do almost nothing, marines are insta-killed by just about everything. Terran units are all situational and require flexible play with constant tech-switching. Terran is absolutely not overpowered, in fact, it needs a buff to be on par with the other races.
My favorite strategy with Reapers on Kulas Ravine (where rocks protect your natural):
1. Lift off command center almost immediately.
2. Land it on your natural that's protected by rocks.
3. Build Reapers.
4. Your opponent has no clue where you are or what you're doing.
5. Jump your Reapers off of the cliff and one-shot their base.
You can't see it coming as Protoss. Dunno how to counter it. As Zerg, your Overlord can spot it.
Husky did that strategy only he used mass banshees. I puts you a couple hundred minerals behind, and it's pretty darn good in FFA games. All it really stops is early zealot rushes. Mass stalkers would poop on mass reapers as would any units with armor or air units. Reapers are an early harassment unit that becomes totally useless after five-six minutes.
My build was actually inspired by Husky. The thing is they do massive damage to buildings. I can usually have about 10-13 Reapers by 5 minutes, and this allows me to snipe spawns. I'm usually able to rape a Nexus with them. Then I build starports and start getting Banshees.
Also, in order to counter it, you've got to spot it. Protoss can't spot it. I can scan them to see what they're doing and where their weakness is. I really don't think Protoss has a counter.
I saw the replay between KHB and TeamEG that Kharma posted, and Terran got raped hard by Infestors and Brood Lords. Fungal Plague, Neural Parasite, Infested Terrans, and Broodlings all conspired to kick his ass, and he didn't have anything capable of taking out all those Armored units once his Thors got butt-raped by Neural Parasite.
I think the Terran player didn't do a good job of scouting. He saw 3 mutas and assumed that the enemy terran would be massing air so he went for thors and mass rines.
I'm not sure what the Terran player could have used to win. Siege tanks, Banshees, and Marauders I guess, but the Brood Lords would have just flown past the Shees and launched some Broodlings to attack the tanks in melee (the commentator mentioned Broodlings were a little bit OP when it came to DPS), and Corrupters I think they're called would have brutalized the Shees so he would have needed some kind of anti-air unit to take out the Lords and Zerg anti-air. Siege Tanks and Goliaths would have been a good choice in a situation like that, but Blizzard removed Goliaths in favor of Vikings, which are either/or, not two-in-one.
Every side has annoying traits to it.
The Zerg have Muta blobs that can be very hard to defend against (harder than it is to create them).
Protos have cheese where if a probe gets into your base they can make life hell.
And Terrans have Reapers.
The basic problem in each case is that the counter strategy requires far more thought than the original strategy. That's what makes it so maddening.
Probe gets in your base and instantly starts building things. Very hard to counter.
I'm going to assume your just trolling now. It has been shown that it is impossible to get a stalker out by the time a reaper gets to your base and if you continue to blatantly disregard that I'll simply leave. However, I guess that's what you want because you continue to ignore numbers and facts, and instead respond again and again with falsehoods that have already been disproven.
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