I've always been very skeptical about building both trade ports and refineries (ESPECIALLY refineries, due to their extreme costs). Trade ports, while they seem like a very important source of income in the mid to late game, can take a huge amount of time and resources before they seem to become useful. So I have to ask; does anyone have a good grasp of roughly during what period of the game that trade ports and/or refineries come in handy the most, per faction?
PS
I am playing Diplomacy, and I usually use Vasari. Also, I normally only play against AI (so far the hardest difficulty I've won against is a 4 player FFA, with 3 unfair/random AIs)
they are both very important to have if you want to be able to support alot of starbases. Otherwise you will find yourself economically behind in late game. Look at planet bonuses... If you get good trade bonuse focus your trade ports there and the same if you get mining bonuses. Also look at the amount of resurce asteroid at the planet .. Its better to build the refineries where there are more present (3-4) and which resource your low on.. if you need more crystal build a refinery where you have the most crystal asteroids.
Selling and buying on the black market is not cost effective but is good in a pinch or a big resource imbalance.
Building these is especailly critical with the higher AI since they get ungodly economic bonuses.(i can beat both vicious and cruel in 8-10 player maps)FFA
You certainly need to make use of both of these, when and where applicable, especially trade ports. Unless your opponent is on your doorstep, or you are in a fighting slot or flank on multiplayer, you need to consider building these structures as soon as you possibly can.
There have been posts made about how to use these structures ad nauseum. It would be a waste of breathe and typing to repeat it here, so do some searching around, or perhaps someone here will post with some links for you.
You have the basics right; trade isn't particularly useful early on, but becomes increasingly important later in the game. Exactly when you choose to start building your trade network is a question that depends a lot on your strategic position, the layout of the map, and what stage of the game you're in.
When you do get around to building trade ports, the key is to build them in a line to create a long trade route. The longer the trade route, the more money each trade port will make. When you're first building your trade ports, you want to do so in a way that quickly extends your network and gives you high returns. This factor is so important to the returns of trade ports that it's worth ignoring planets with % bonuses to trade income. While those are a nice boost, the fact is a 30% bonus to one trade port is completely eclipsed by an 8% bonus to all your trade ports. Once you've filled out your trade route, then stack up trade ports on planets with those nice bonuses.
Sometimes, you get an empire that just screams for trade ports, with a long and snake-like formation that makes creating a great trade route easy. Other times, you have an empire that has a bunch of uncolonizable "potholes" blocking potential trade routes. In this case, trade ports just aren't a good idea. Sometimes you get a location with over a dozen resource extractors within a 1 jump range, and that just screams for a refinery (or three). Refineries don't need any excessive combos to be worthwhile, just a good location with lots of extractors, so if you need to bolster your income but can't get a trade route operational, some well-placed refineries are a decent alternative.
Strategic considerations are another important factor. If you're in a long stalemate situation, then you have the opportunity to spend your cash income on trade ports and other economic investments. If you're constantly doing battle with your enemy, I'd rather put that cash towards more units or researching better types of units. As opportunity allows, trade ports are a great investment. If opportunity doesn't allow, don't try to force it.
Finally, there isn't a big difference between factions. The trade ports require a different number of labs, the TEC and Vasari get a few upgrades to increase their trade income later on, but otherwise they're the same structures with the same cost. Advent, however, lacks a conventional refinery. Instead they have an upgrade that allows them to convert their trade port into a specialty refinery that works differently from the TEC and Vasari refinery. I've crunched the numbers on this "resource focus" ability and I can simply say you should never use it. It's just a crappy ability and it's in the running for the worst economic upgrade in the game.
I respect Darvin's expertise and knowledge of the game. But we may differ slightly on this issue (or hell, we may not).
My general answer to when you should start getting trade ports or refineries is "ASAP." Of course, like with anything, there are exceptions. For instance, if there is an enemy a few jumps away from you, don't do this.
My answer of "ASAP" is based on my experience playing 1v1 small random maps online against "pro" types. Every pro type I've ever played against, with the exception of Siddy, will rush to get trade ports in this type of game. The same also holds true, I believe, of 2v2 random 4-player maps.
When you get to crowded 5v5s, this principle doesn't hold at all - it all depends on what "slot" you are in (eco, fighting/flank, suicide, etc). But the eco player in a 5v5 will certainly rush to trade ports, and if the situation calls for it, refineries as well (vasari here more than the other factions).
Don't get caught up in "well I'm playing single player, not multi." Doesn't matter - the principles apply there as well, maybe even more so.
Darvin is right in that you need to have at least a 4-5 trade port "line" of planets before you start laying them down.
Refineries are a bitch...
Try to build them on planets that have as many phase lanes leading to other gravwells (that have metal/crystal extractors in them) as possible. You want to try to place them to maximize the amount of extractors they can cover. Honestly if the refinery can't hit like... at least 6-8 extractors, you probably don't want to even bother with placing one there.
Each extractor can support three refineries (although neutral extractors can apparently support four, and seem to have a higher extraction rate). So you DO NOT need to build refineries all over the place, you need to strategically place them to minimize waste and maximize coverage.
When to build them? Good god... honestly? That depends on your military situation. If at some point after you have a bit of a trade network (and yes, I know that you usually play Vasari and the Trade Port tech comes AFTER refineries... but trust me here and research Refineries after Trade Ports) and your military is solid enough to hold the line for a bit, and you're straddling the mid-game and your resources income is starting to level off? Bust 'em out. Well, ideally you bust them out right before your resource income starts to level off, but sometimes it's hard to tell.
The shitty thing is... you won't notice much of a difference for a while. But as the game rolls on a bit more and those supply taxes start piling up, you will be freaking glad for that extra few resource points a second while you Black Market the procedes or are - simply put - the guy not running out of Crystal every five minutes.
Hope it helps.
PS: The cargo-bay upgrades to your trade/refinery ships really, really, really adds up - especially in long duration games!
If the map is full of clusters of 3-4 planets, surrounded by neutrals, it may be worth concidering a Starbase with at least oner trade port upgrade, just to get the chains from other worlds. But you have to weight the costs in this case, whether you can afford to drop a starbase inside your empire yet, or you need it on the front line first.
-Twilight Storm
refineries?just build em if u feel ur territory is secure for the time being and u feel like going eco heh
as for trade ports ; building em in the first 10 minutes is very crucial
NO! Wrong! Do not rush to trade ports. Gaining neutral teritory and planets is key first. Once you have an established area, then you can build trade ports within your territory.
But do not rush to trade, it is a very dangerous gamble at the beginning of a game. If you get rushed, you get crushed.
Refineries are summed up by the other posts quite well... They are situational only.
I think he meant right after the planet grabbing part
Ah, then yes - after the boarders are fleshed out, go for the trade as soon as possible.
Yes, we're all in agreement on that; trade is positively awesome once your empire is established and you're consolidating it. Of course, it still takes 15 minutes or so to pay for itself, so it's entirely possible to go on an all-out military blitz instead (though you better make it count...)
Depends on your play style, really. If you like a economic/diplomacy style like me, I would first establish a good defend first, and then investing in trade+diplomatic research to generate a huge income from trading with many factions. Only apply to single player though... In online matches, this style need real diplomatic skills to convince other players to do trading with you.
Online play is almost exclusively locked teamed, which very much means role-based gameplay. That means that you and your allies will evaluate your respective start locations, and then decide who will play economically and who will play military. This discussion would be most relevant to a 1v1 match in multiplayer, where there are no allies to trade with.
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