It is difficult to explain the issues of Sins have without going into too much "technical detail" which some may not understand. The main problem is that Sins is an older generation 32 bit game. With a two gigabyte memory limit. This is nothing new. All 32 bit games have a 2 gig memory limit. However Sins is NOT like other 32 bit games. Most games have an ability to load their assets "on the fly", or only as needed. Some games can also unload assets that are not needed. This is how they prevent themselves from reaching the 2 gig limit. Some games have been patched to where they can use up to 4 gigs of ram on 64 bit systems.
Sins also can load only what is needed at game start up, but Sins does NOT unload what it does not use. Any assets that are loaded remain loaded throughout the entire game! If you use all three factions (Six in the case of Rebellion), Then Sins will load ALL of its game assets at start up. Entrenchment, and Diplomacy in some games loaded between 1.7 to 1.9 gigs worth of assets at game start up! Graphic settings, The size of the Map, and the amount of Players, or AI opponents also determine how much ram Sins will use in any given session.In 2006 when Sins was first conceived 32 bit Windows XP was the standard OS of the time. Single core CPU's were also still the standard. Though dual core CPU's were starting to become mainstream, and 2 gigs was considered to be "plenty" of memory. So most game developers at the time didn't have to worry about hitting that dreaded 2 gig brick wall. As time went on Computers, and Sins itself evolved into their present state which is now Rebellion, and soon to be Windows 10 running in multiple core 64 bit systems. With 16+ gigs of ram. Things have changed so much over the years. However Sins still remained the 32 bit game as it was designed in 2006. That uses only a single core of your CPU. With a two gigabyte hard coded memory limit. Sins WILL CRASH when the game reaches that 2 gig limit.There is some misunderstanding about the 2 gig crash issue. The dump happens when Sins reaches 2 gigs of Ram Usage. That means the ram that Sins uses by itself. NOT what your entire operating system, and/or other programs you are running combined uses. Only the ram that Sins uses. No matter how powerful your system is. If it is 32, or 64 bit, or if it is Windows XP, Vista, 7, 8, etc. etc. Sins WILL CRASH when it hits its 2 gig ram limit. It is hard coded into the game.Nobody was aware that this would be a major problem back when the game was first designed, because Sins was designed based on the hardware standards of 2006-2007. Before 64 bit OS's, Quad Core cpu's, and 4+ gig ram systems became the standard that they are now. There is nothing that can be done about it. Except to re-write Sins in 64 bit. Which is out of the question, because it is too cost prohibitive for the developers to do this (Ironclad said so themselves). Sins is a great game, and it is a shame that this is happening. With the Entrenchment, and Diplomacy expansions Ironclad had unintentionally pushed the game over its own hard coded limitations with all of the new added content.
Over the years as of the release of Diplomacy 1.3, and Rebellion. Stardock, and Ironclad did indeed fix all of the major game crashing issues of Sins. Using the fix's from This Project as a guide. However, NONE of these fix's ever made it into Entrenchment, or Original Sins! While the Stardock, and Ironclad developers have fixed most of these issues over years. They can not do anything to change the game itself short of reprogramming Sins over from scratch. The developers can do no more, but there is something that WE can do as modders to prevent Sins from hitting that dreaded 2 gig brick wall, and improve the performance of Sins "just a little bit more". I have taken the initiative, and applied to Sins what i have learned from my Homeworld Modding days. I present to you....
The goal of this project is to improve your Vanilla Sins gaming experience, and to eliminate the 2 gig crash issue. No changes will be made to Original Sins, or any of its Expansions in game play at all. No stat changes will be made. Nothing "new" will be added. There are other mods that can do that. Original Sins will remain Original Sins, and the Expansions will remain as they are. What we are doing is taking what game assets that Sins already has, and we are "optimizing" them to improve the performance, stability, and to moderate the ram usage in game. The side benefit will be that some lower end systems can enjoy almost the same gaming experience as the high end users do (Especially Laptop Users).The project initially started out as an idea to reduce the texture sizes, and poly counts of some models. Not just arbitrary reductions. The goal was to maintain the quality of Sins in game. To make it look as if nothing has been changed at all. We started with optimizations to the Planet's, and Skybox's, because they were the "worst offenders" as far as ram usage, and performance was concerned. Unfortunately my modeling skills left much to be desired in Softimage XSI at the time, and there were un-fixable mesh errors on the optimized planet meshes. Despite that the "proof of concept" was established. A lot of ram was saved, and there was a very noticeable increase in performance.Then we studied the Particle files, and Textures. Many of the particle textures in our opinion were way too high in resolution for the purpose that they served. A reduction in texture resolution by HALF showed no visible difference in game at all! There were some exceptions where the particle resolution reduction difference was very noticeable in game, and those textures were reverted back to their original resolutions. Remember the goal was NOT to reduce in game quality. Also all of the particle textures were changed from TGA format to DDS format, because DDS uses a little less memory, and is much more efficient, because DDS format loads directly into video memory. The particles can also utilize the mip mapping features of DDS format. Where TGA format does not. Therefore enhancing in game video performance (increased FPS). As of version 0.07 no TGA format textures load in TSOP. With the exceptions of the Mouse Cursors, and Scenario Pictures. This is due to those textures being controlled by the hard coded exe. When you change the texture format those textures do not show up in game.The developers mentioned something about a Memory Leak. I heard that a memory leak can be caused by a file searching for something over, and over again if it is not there. Example a mesh file calling for a texture that does not exist. Vanilla Sins had MANY particle, and mesh files that had that issue. We removed all of the entries that pointed to non existent textures in the mesh, and particle files. We also removed the entries that have lines like for example "C;\g\main\datasource\textures\effects\aura4.dds", and just used "aura4.dds". This will default the search to Sins, or the Mods "Textures" folder, and speed things up a bit. Also various typo's were corrected in some mesh, and particle files. Some ships had mesh nulls that were Miss-Labeled. For example the Akkan had nulls, and flairs that were miss-labeled. The engine trails, and flairs didnt show up in game. the Marza was missing its bomb nulls. etc. etc. All of this has been corrected as well. If there is a ships mesh file in the mods "Mesh" folder then it had something wrong with it that was fixed. The Soundata, and Galaxydef files had errors too. Regardless if any of these issues caused any memory leaks, or not these issues MUST be fixed! (and they were as of Diplomacy 1.3, but NOT for Original Sins, or Entrenchment).After the Meshes, Particles, Textures, and the User Interface were optimized, and the very obvious issues were fixed there was a tremendous boost in game performance. Sins ram usage was greatly reduced. As of TSOP 0.07 I could run a game of Entrenchment, or Diplomacy ALL DAY, and I NEVER used more than 1.5 gigs of ram! This was using Maximum Settings. Including Bloom enabled. Tested on Huge Random Multi Star maps with 9 AI's. The 2 gig crash problem has been solved! Our primary goal with this project has been achieved! Without having to use any external memory increasing programs! Stardock, and Ironclad took notice, and they used TSOP as a guide in the Diplomacy 1.3 patch, and for developing Rebellion.Now that the Stardock, and Ironclad have fixed the issues of the game as of Diplomacy 1.3, and Rebellion. TSOP has been focusing more on Original Sins, and Entrenchment. Since the Ironclad/Stardock fixes never made it into Original Sins, or Entrenchment. However, That is not stopping us from optimizing Diplomacy, or Rebellion "just a little bit more" You can also use Large Address Aware to give Sins an extra gig to play with, but in vanilla Original Sins, and Entrenchment the Endless Search Loop issues that were never fixed will cause the game to eventually go over that extra gig (Run vanilla Entrenchment, and watch your ram usage keep going up, and up, and up). TSOP is a solution that will stop that issue.
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Downloads
The Sins Optimization Project v1.0
For Original Sins 1.195
For Entrenchment 1.055
For Diplomacy 1.37
Stardock, and Ironclad fixed all of the issues that compelled us to make TSOP. Therefore there is no TSOP for Diplomacy
For Rebellion 1.82
As with Diplomacy, Stardock, and Ironclad fixed all of the issues that TSOP pointed out, and then some in the case of Rebellion. Sins: Rebellion is as optimized as any Sins game is going to get.
NOTE: TSOP 0.07 is still hosted on ModDB, and it still works in the current versions of Trinity (OS, E, and D), but you will be playing as if Sins was patched to an older version of the game. Plus some Icons and Buttons wont be visible.
Changes in TSOP 1.0
TSOP 1.0 updated to the latest versions of Original Sins, and Entrenchment.
The User Interface is completely overhauled to use pure DDS format.
Trade Ships, Strike Craft, Mines, and Constructor Unit Meshes, and Textures are Optimized.
Starbase Textures are optimized mimicking the Stardock Rebellion Optimizations.
Sounds, and Music are optimized.
All TGA format Textures are replaced with DDS format, and TSOP "force" loads them. The only TGA textures that remain are the Mouse Cursers, and Scenario Pictures. This is due to hard code in the EXE.
"Strategic Texture Reductions" for the Particles return using newer methods to create a better looking texture.
(Original Sins, and Entrenchment) Many Mesh Null issues, and various File Errors were corrected, and Unnecessary Text Entry's were removed in both the Mesh, and Particle files. Entry's pointing to Non Existent Textures in both the mesh, and particle files removed. See the various "Fixed Files" texts in the mods Read Me for details.
(Original Sins, and Entrenchment) The Diplomacy 1.3 graphic fix's have been incorporated into the Original Sins, and Entrenchment versions of TSOP (Pipeline Effects, "White Line" error fix, and Corrected Mesh files).
TSOP 1.0 for Trinity will see the return of Optimized Planets using the planet meshes from Rebellion! but with our Optimized Original Sins Textures!
There will be no version of TSOP made for Diplomacy, or Rebellion, because there is no need for it. Only Original Sins, and Entrenchment need TSOP, because the 2 gig issue, and various other issues were never fixed in those two versions of the game.
This is the FINAL version of TSOP that i will make. If the community wants to take over the project they are more than welcome to.
Community input, and contributions are more than welcome, and they are encouraged! This is a Community Project! All can pitch in!
Note: TSOP does not fix the known issue of "Late Game Lag". It does help prolong the lag until further into the game in some cases, but sooner, or later the lag will happen. The late game lag issue is a CPU issue due to the fact that Sins (including Rebellion) is optimized to use only single core processors. Therefore Sins will use only one core in multi core CPU's. To help with the late game lag issue we recommend the following:
Playing on smaller maps.
Using fewer AI opponents.
Disabling the Trade Ship icons (this actually helps out a lot)
Stacking the icons in the empire tree (same as with disabling trade ship icons the less icons rendered the better).
Using a Strike Craft Reduction mod (The many strike craft in the game are a big CPU hog. There are some good strike craft mods that reduce the number, but maintain the balance. Search for them).
You do not need to download all versions of TSOP. You only need to download the version of TSOP for the specific version of Sins you wish to play. The Retail version of Trinity is just all three versions of Sins bundled into one package. Installation for Trinity versions of Sins are no different than if you purchased each version of Sins separately.
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Other mods are more than welcome to use TSOP. No questions asked! In fact we encourage it! Learn from it! Use it as guide, and an example! Merge it into your projects!
TSOP is intended to be a Stand Alone mod. Run with no other mods enabled. There are issues enabling TSOP with other mods. Enabling with other "Graphic Enhancement" mods is NOT recommended, because the graphic enhancement mod will defeat the entire purpose of TSOP. All of our optimized files will be overridden by that enhancement mods "enhanced" files. Increasing your ram usage instead of decreasing it. Some enhancement mods like Distant Stars are incorporating elements of TSOP into their future updates.
Read the included READ ME text's for installation instructions.
Good stuff^^
FYI:
Issues with the Shield Generator will be fixed in upcoming patch from SC and IC.
I have some problems getting this mod to work for diplomacy when i applied the mod sins crashes ? I installed Sins Optimization Project D folder into the Mods-Diplomacy v1.31 folder at C:\Documents and Settings\user1\local settings\Application Data\Ironclad Games\ from the readme.
That is because we didnt update TSOP for 1.31/1.32. There is almost no need to.
You really dont need TSOP for Diplomacy, because IC fixed the 2 gig problem, and incorporated much of TSOP into Diplomacy with the last series of patches.
We are currently debating if another build for Diplomacy is even necessary. Since almost all of the issues that started this project are pretty much fixed for Diplomacy. However, those fix's never made it into Entrenchment, or Original Sins. The builds of TSOP for those 2 versions are still current.
Did you guys or IC ever get around to fixing up the outrageous poly count for the Advent Star Base? Just curious.
SivCorp was working on the optimized models. i dont know if he ever got around to working on the starbases yet. Yea the Advent starbase is pretty ridiculous in tri's, AND texture size. To add insult to injury there are 4 meshes (one for each upgrade). Well see what Siv has got done (if he is doing anything at all now).
I had been working on it. I will probably get it down past half on the totals for tri count.
I will have to pick up on it in a little while, I haven't had time to get back to it...
I couldn't get download Sins Optimization Project v0.08 Entrenchment? those link lead to no flie? I try download all trinity as well, but it's doe seem lead to download, so I click download but website is lead to error, if you click till where they said 5 second wait then get download but it's website errer as well.
assuming it is ok with the optimization mod's crew I am uploading my copies(unmodified) of the entrenchment and vanilla 0.8 rar's to my dropbox, and will post when the 166mb & 200mb files are uploaded
harpo
Thank Harpo, that would be great, I hope it's help better when come memory dump when I having window 7 64 bit. Let's me know when you are done.
Any mirrors would be appreciated. both 0.07, and 0.08 are current for entrenchment, and Original Sins. the only difference between the two versions is 0.07 has lower texture resolutions.
thanks stress, here is my dropbox link to the vanilla tsop 0.8
and the link to the entrecnhment 0.8 tsop.
Thanks Harpo.
Ill try to fix the main topic links asap.
Is there any way to get this to work for Diplo 1.32? I just tried if there, and got scores of errors. I had to reinstall the game, and am waiting for an answer. Or did I just miss something?
Anyway, I've got Trinity.
Diplomacy 1.32 has most of the TSOP fixes included into it officially. There are also other engine improvements that eliminates one of the core reason for this mod, and that's reducing the memory footprint to prevent crashes.
So, all I would need is the add-ons? Like SC reduction and Cargoship reduction?
But is there a way to make this compatible, just in case? I would like to try it, just to see how it improves the game. (Late game for me is laggy. I'm looking to end it)
What part of most of TSOP is already included officially in Diplomacy are you having trouble understanding? I'd love to explain it to you but I'm at a loss for how much clearer I can be.
Late game lag will not be improved by this. Your best bet is to start killing off the excess of ships, structures, mines, strike craft and factions that are present on the map.
Well it's two AM here. I'm probably not thinking straight.
So, I guess I'll just get the cargoship and strike craft reduction.
As for the automated SC thing, I've had that in the past but it keeps cancelling itself out. Is that normal or a bug?
Automated strike craft was an add-on to TSOP, and there are issues with it AFAIK. I never used it. It is not included with TSOP. It is a separate download.
What came from TSOP that is included in the diplomacy patches is:
1) The TSOP Particle fix's
2) The TSOP Mesh fix's
3) The ton of error fix's in the GameInfo files that we found over time.
IC did not include the conversion of textures to DDS format. They seem to be hell bent on sticking with TGA format. IMO DDS is a much better format for this type of game. I am not a dev so i have no say in this.
IC did not include the optimized lower poly meshes for the strike craft, and trade ships.
IC did include a fix of their own in the Pipeline Effects, and the EXE. Which corrected the "white line" issue on ship meshes, and allowed the existing textures to use up less ram. That is the best thing they did with the patch. A game of Vanilla Diplomacy in Max settings, Max AI, and largest map shouldnt run over 1.6 gigs. My average games are around 1.5 gigs. The main purpose of TSOP was to fix the 2 gig crash issue. We succeeded, and IC included some of our work into the Diplomacy patches. Diplomacy does NOT need TSOP any more.
Like i said before. Unfortunately these fix's did NOT make it into Entrenchment, or Original Sins. You will still need TSOP for those versions of the game to prevent the 2 gig crash. The versions of TSOP out now are still current. Since Entrenchment, and Original Sins have NOT been updated when Diplomacy was updated.
We could do a version of TSOP for diplomacy for the very few people that have very low end systems, but why? I have no motivation, or free time to do this. Since the diplomacy updates are so many that it would force me to re-build TSOP from scratch. Plus Rebellion is right around the corner. I think it is safe to say that i am finished with TSOP. For now at least.
That does not mean that others can not work with TSOP. This is a Community Project with the goal of others studying what we have done, learned, and incorporating it into their projects, and mods. In fact We Encouraged It. Distant Stars is using it. Other enhancement projects are using it. ANYONE can continue the work if they chose to do so. Brutal honesty, The main guys here have just been too busy with RL, and other things to work on it. If you think you have something to contribute, or You can make a version that works with the latest Diplomacy updates? Then by all means do so. This is what we have been trying to do from day one. Make this a Community effort.
Links on Main Topic are now fixed using my dropbox. I am only gonna host the Entrenchment, and Original Sins version of TSOP. Since the Diplomacy version is now obsolete, and no longer required.
No updates?
And the Necromancy award goes to...
Seriously, TSOP is pretty much obsolete my friend. 0.08 was intended to be the final release, because there is not much more we can do. Only Entrenchment, and Original Sins need TSOP, and not many play ether. Most play Diplomacy, and soon Rebellion now.
Much of TSOP was incorporated into the latest Diplomacy patches (see post above yours), and it seems that the lessons learned from TSOP are being passed onto Rebellion as well from what i can see of the beta so far.
Once Rebellion is released ill take one final look at Trinity. The advantage of Rebellion is that its a stand alone game, and it does not need any past releases of Sins to run. I dont understand why IC didnt include the TSOP fix's into the Original Sins, and Entrenchment patches, because Diplomacy needs files from those two games to run. All IC did was include the fixed files into the diplomacy patch, and left OS, and E alone with the same 2 gig problems and errors. I guess if it makes sense it is too easy.
I got a question for the community now that this topic has risen from the dead...
Did you guys prefer the TSOP 0.08 update with the full resolution textures? or the 0.07 release with the "strategically reduced resolution" textures?
Personally when i did the reduced resolution versions as it was intended to be, i did not notice any difference in game play or graphic detail. I know some are more particular about details. this is why i am asking.
I think I've mentioned this previously, but I'm fairly confident that the late-game lagg isn't necessarily caused by graphics utilization.
I believe it's down to all empires having massive trade-networks, and those are ever-increasing. Were the specific patches made for Strike Craft Reduction and Refinery/Trade ship reductions ever implemented at all?
I really noticed increased playability when I used those patches.
I agree. The late game lag is more a CPU problem than a graphics related issue, because of the sheer number of units on the map.
Trade ship, Constructor, and Strike craft poly, and texture reductions were in TSOP. They helped a little, but ultimately didnt solve the issue. We also had the strike craft reduction add ons were add ons because they directly effected the gameplay which we didnt want to change. Again that was only mildly effective.
Even considering buying a new cpu cooler and oc'ing my i7 2600k to see if I can get increased performance out of it.
bfroberg, I would suggest one of the self contained water coolers, and then you will be held back b the SPEED of your ram and also the motherboard(this is from my own tests with a OC'd i7930 from 2.8ghz to 4ghz & 2ghz ddr3 ram).
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