It is difficult to explain the issues of Sins have without going into too much "technical detail" which some may not understand. The main problem is that Sins is an older generation 32 bit game. With a two gigabyte memory limit. This is nothing new. All 32 bit games have a 2 gig memory limit. However Sins is NOT like other 32 bit games. Most games have an ability to load their assets "on the fly", or only as needed. Some games can also unload assets that are not needed. This is how they prevent themselves from reaching the 2 gig limit. Some games have been patched to where they can use up to 4 gigs of ram on 64 bit systems.
Sins also can load only what is needed at game start up, but Sins does NOT unload what it does not use. Any assets that are loaded remain loaded throughout the entire game! If you use all three factions (Six in the case of Rebellion), Then Sins will load ALL of its game assets at start up. Entrenchment, and Diplomacy in some games loaded between 1.7 to 1.9 gigs worth of assets at game start up! Graphic settings, The size of the Map, and the amount of Players, or AI opponents also determine how much ram Sins will use in any given session.In 2006 when Sins was first conceived 32 bit Windows XP was the standard OS of the time. Single core CPU's were also still the standard. Though dual core CPU's were starting to become mainstream, and 2 gigs was considered to be "plenty" of memory. So most game developers at the time didn't have to worry about hitting that dreaded 2 gig brick wall. As time went on Computers, and Sins itself evolved into their present state which is now Rebellion, and soon to be Windows 10 running in multiple core 64 bit systems. With 16+ gigs of ram. Things have changed so much over the years. However Sins still remained the 32 bit game as it was designed in 2006. That uses only a single core of your CPU. With a two gigabyte hard coded memory limit. Sins WILL CRASH when the game reaches that 2 gig limit.There is some misunderstanding about the 2 gig crash issue. The dump happens when Sins reaches 2 gigs of Ram Usage. That means the ram that Sins uses by itself. NOT what your entire operating system, and/or other programs you are running combined uses. Only the ram that Sins uses. No matter how powerful your system is. If it is 32, or 64 bit, or if it is Windows XP, Vista, 7, 8, etc. etc. Sins WILL CRASH when it hits its 2 gig ram limit. It is hard coded into the game.Nobody was aware that this would be a major problem back when the game was first designed, because Sins was designed based on the hardware standards of 2006-2007. Before 64 bit OS's, Quad Core cpu's, and 4+ gig ram systems became the standard that they are now. There is nothing that can be done about it. Except to re-write Sins in 64 bit. Which is out of the question, because it is too cost prohibitive for the developers to do this (Ironclad said so themselves). Sins is a great game, and it is a shame that this is happening. With the Entrenchment, and Diplomacy expansions Ironclad had unintentionally pushed the game over its own hard coded limitations with all of the new added content.
Over the years as of the release of Diplomacy 1.3, and Rebellion. Stardock, and Ironclad did indeed fix all of the major game crashing issues of Sins. Using the fix's from This Project as a guide. However, NONE of these fix's ever made it into Entrenchment, or Original Sins! While the Stardock, and Ironclad developers have fixed most of these issues over years. They can not do anything to change the game itself short of reprogramming Sins over from scratch. The developers can do no more, but there is something that WE can do as modders to prevent Sins from hitting that dreaded 2 gig brick wall, and improve the performance of Sins "just a little bit more". I have taken the initiative, and applied to Sins what i have learned from my Homeworld Modding days. I present to you....
The goal of this project is to improve your Vanilla Sins gaming experience, and to eliminate the 2 gig crash issue. No changes will be made to Original Sins, or any of its Expansions in game play at all. No stat changes will be made. Nothing "new" will be added. There are other mods that can do that. Original Sins will remain Original Sins, and the Expansions will remain as they are. What we are doing is taking what game assets that Sins already has, and we are "optimizing" them to improve the performance, stability, and to moderate the ram usage in game. The side benefit will be that some lower end systems can enjoy almost the same gaming experience as the high end users do (Especially Laptop Users).The project initially started out as an idea to reduce the texture sizes, and poly counts of some models. Not just arbitrary reductions. The goal was to maintain the quality of Sins in game. To make it look as if nothing has been changed at all. We started with optimizations to the Planet's, and Skybox's, because they were the "worst offenders" as far as ram usage, and performance was concerned. Unfortunately my modeling skills left much to be desired in Softimage XSI at the time, and there were un-fixable mesh errors on the optimized planet meshes. Despite that the "proof of concept" was established. A lot of ram was saved, and there was a very noticeable increase in performance.Then we studied the Particle files, and Textures. Many of the particle textures in our opinion were way too high in resolution for the purpose that they served. A reduction in texture resolution by HALF showed no visible difference in game at all! There were some exceptions where the particle resolution reduction difference was very noticeable in game, and those textures were reverted back to their original resolutions. Remember the goal was NOT to reduce in game quality. Also all of the particle textures were changed from TGA format to DDS format, because DDS uses a little less memory, and is much more efficient, because DDS format loads directly into video memory. The particles can also utilize the mip mapping features of DDS format. Where TGA format does not. Therefore enhancing in game video performance (increased FPS). As of version 0.07 no TGA format textures load in TSOP. With the exceptions of the Mouse Cursors, and Scenario Pictures. This is due to those textures being controlled by the hard coded exe. When you change the texture format those textures do not show up in game.The developers mentioned something about a Memory Leak. I heard that a memory leak can be caused by a file searching for something over, and over again if it is not there. Example a mesh file calling for a texture that does not exist. Vanilla Sins had MANY particle, and mesh files that had that issue. We removed all of the entries that pointed to non existent textures in the mesh, and particle files. We also removed the entries that have lines like for example "C;\g\main\datasource\textures\effects\aura4.dds", and just used "aura4.dds". This will default the search to Sins, or the Mods "Textures" folder, and speed things up a bit. Also various typo's were corrected in some mesh, and particle files. Some ships had mesh nulls that were Miss-Labeled. For example the Akkan had nulls, and flairs that were miss-labeled. The engine trails, and flairs didnt show up in game. the Marza was missing its bomb nulls. etc. etc. All of this has been corrected as well. If there is a ships mesh file in the mods "Mesh" folder then it had something wrong with it that was fixed. The Soundata, and Galaxydef files had errors too. Regardless if any of these issues caused any memory leaks, or not these issues MUST be fixed! (and they were as of Diplomacy 1.3, but NOT for Original Sins, or Entrenchment).After the Meshes, Particles, Textures, and the User Interface were optimized, and the very obvious issues were fixed there was a tremendous boost in game performance. Sins ram usage was greatly reduced. As of TSOP 0.07 I could run a game of Entrenchment, or Diplomacy ALL DAY, and I NEVER used more than 1.5 gigs of ram! This was using Maximum Settings. Including Bloom enabled. Tested on Huge Random Multi Star maps with 9 AI's. The 2 gig crash problem has been solved! Our primary goal with this project has been achieved! Without having to use any external memory increasing programs! Stardock, and Ironclad took notice, and they used TSOP as a guide in the Diplomacy 1.3 patch, and for developing Rebellion.Now that the Stardock, and Ironclad have fixed the issues of the game as of Diplomacy 1.3, and Rebellion. TSOP has been focusing more on Original Sins, and Entrenchment. Since the Ironclad/Stardock fixes never made it into Original Sins, or Entrenchment. However, That is not stopping us from optimizing Diplomacy, or Rebellion "just a little bit more" You can also use Large Address Aware to give Sins an extra gig to play with, but in vanilla Original Sins, and Entrenchment the Endless Search Loop issues that were never fixed will cause the game to eventually go over that extra gig (Run vanilla Entrenchment, and watch your ram usage keep going up, and up, and up). TSOP is a solution that will stop that issue.
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Downloads
The Sins Optimization Project v1.0
For Original Sins 1.195
For Entrenchment 1.055
For Diplomacy 1.37
Stardock, and Ironclad fixed all of the issues that compelled us to make TSOP. Therefore there is no TSOP for Diplomacy
For Rebellion 1.82
As with Diplomacy, Stardock, and Ironclad fixed all of the issues that TSOP pointed out, and then some in the case of Rebellion. Sins: Rebellion is as optimized as any Sins game is going to get.
NOTE: TSOP 0.07 is still hosted on ModDB, and it still works in the current versions of Trinity (OS, E, and D), but you will be playing as if Sins was patched to an older version of the game. Plus some Icons and Buttons wont be visible.
Changes in TSOP 1.0
TSOP 1.0 updated to the latest versions of Original Sins, and Entrenchment.
The User Interface is completely overhauled to use pure DDS format.
Trade Ships, Strike Craft, Mines, and Constructor Unit Meshes, and Textures are Optimized.
Starbase Textures are optimized mimicking the Stardock Rebellion Optimizations.
Sounds, and Music are optimized.
All TGA format Textures are replaced with DDS format, and TSOP "force" loads them. The only TGA textures that remain are the Mouse Cursers, and Scenario Pictures. This is due to hard code in the EXE.
"Strategic Texture Reductions" for the Particles return using newer methods to create a better looking texture.
(Original Sins, and Entrenchment) Many Mesh Null issues, and various File Errors were corrected, and Unnecessary Text Entry's were removed in both the Mesh, and Particle files. Entry's pointing to Non Existent Textures in both the mesh, and particle files removed. See the various "Fixed Files" texts in the mods Read Me for details.
(Original Sins, and Entrenchment) The Diplomacy 1.3 graphic fix's have been incorporated into the Original Sins, and Entrenchment versions of TSOP (Pipeline Effects, "White Line" error fix, and Corrected Mesh files).
TSOP 1.0 for Trinity will see the return of Optimized Planets using the planet meshes from Rebellion! but with our Optimized Original Sins Textures!
There will be no version of TSOP made for Diplomacy, or Rebellion, because there is no need for it. Only Original Sins, and Entrenchment need TSOP, because the 2 gig issue, and various other issues were never fixed in those two versions of the game.
This is the FINAL version of TSOP that i will make. If the community wants to take over the project they are more than welcome to.
Community input, and contributions are more than welcome, and they are encouraged! This is a Community Project! All can pitch in!
Note: TSOP does not fix the known issue of "Late Game Lag". It does help prolong the lag until further into the game in some cases, but sooner, or later the lag will happen. The late game lag issue is a CPU issue due to the fact that Sins (including Rebellion) is optimized to use only single core processors. Therefore Sins will use only one core in multi core CPU's. To help with the late game lag issue we recommend the following:
Playing on smaller maps.
Using fewer AI opponents.
Disabling the Trade Ship icons (this actually helps out a lot)
Stacking the icons in the empire tree (same as with disabling trade ship icons the less icons rendered the better).
Using a Strike Craft Reduction mod (The many strike craft in the game are a big CPU hog. There are some good strike craft mods that reduce the number, but maintain the balance. Search for them).
You do not need to download all versions of TSOP. You only need to download the version of TSOP for the specific version of Sins you wish to play. The Retail version of Trinity is just all three versions of Sins bundled into one package. Installation for Trinity versions of Sins are no different than if you purchased each version of Sins separately.
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Other mods are more than welcome to use TSOP. No questions asked! In fact we encourage it! Learn from it! Use it as guide, and an example! Merge it into your projects!
TSOP is intended to be a Stand Alone mod. Run with no other mods enabled. There are issues enabling TSOP with other mods. Enabling with other "Graphic Enhancement" mods is NOT recommended, because the graphic enhancement mod will defeat the entire purpose of TSOP. All of our optimized files will be overridden by that enhancement mods "enhanced" files. Increasing your ram usage instead of decreasing it. Some enhancement mods like Distant Stars are incorporating elements of TSOP into their future updates.
Read the included READ ME text's for installation instructions.
I realize this is the terribly wrong place to put this, however I noticed the Sins community has a small number modelers, and I was just wondering if it would be worth it for a newbie to try and learn to model...?
If it is something that you really want to do then it is definitely worth it. Not only for Sins modding, but as an art form, and hobby in general. Which if you are good enough could possibly lead to a professional career. Just know you will need lots of time, and more importantly patience to learn to model, and do not learn on just one program like i did. Learn on as many modeling programs as you can.
@MajorStressWell said!
I got your e-mail Tobiwan, and i am downloading Meshlab. Myfisto you may want to add that tool to the weebly as well. It is quite useful.
It seems the SoA 2 3rd party meshes along with some of my own meshes are pretty well screwed. Which could explain a lot of why XSI, and convertXSI were corrupting them on import. This means that much of the work may have to be re-meshed. From what i am gathering the mesh must be "solid". (No intersecting polys, No open areas or gaps).
In the days of Homeworld, and SFC modding "open" meshes were a necessity to save tri's. Now i am beginning to see that newer game engines do not like this method. Especially the Sins engine which has become somewhat unforgiving. Sins itself uses some "open" meshes. If you study the Kol mesh you can see that it uses "open" add ons. Some parts are solid, but some parts are not. I will have to study this some to see exactly how much "openness" one can get away with in sins. I think the safe route is to just rebuild the models as solid meshes. The Sins meshes themselves shouldnt be a problem as long as during optimization they are not "opened" up.
I can do solid meshes, but it will effectively triple the poly counts to close up all of the gaps, and get rid of intersecting polys. That is ok now i have a new challenge.. To do "taste great-less filling" on a "solid" model.
I do not speak german, but in the reply it said a word with VIRUS in the topic. Please tell me that there was no virus.
You can do intersecting polys (closed objects intersecting each other in one mesh) but there should be no holes in the objects themselves. (as for example the dome of the Kvort cockpit is not closed if you look inside the model, there are some connections missing.) So, yes, it will upp the polygon count, but as one can use multiple closed objects intersecting each other in a mesh, it will not tripple, but probably be 150 % of it's current size.
And as for the VIRUS, there was non, it was just my email client warned me of your mail that there MIGHT be a virus because it could not scan your archive I suppose.
Sure I can add a mesh lab link but can one of you give a brief description of why someone that has 3ds max or XSI would use this for.
On the subject of holes, I am not sure if I understand this. I have experimented in the past with deleting polys leaving holes and had no issues getting the model in Sins. I add this extra engine to the KOL as an experiment with ship upgrades which I thought had 6 holes.
The very 1st modeling tutorial I ever watched stated that pinch points on models were BAD. this model I deleted the pinch points on both ends and on the rear I added the 4 poly plane in position then merged. On the front its just a hole. The center brace also has the end polys deleted before moving in position.
I also did this with the vasari star base which has a lot of those pinch point, some inside the model. No issues in-game.
Am I misunderstanding by what you mean as holes?
@MyFist0Holes not necessarily prevent a model from being displayed correctly in sins, but from my experience it can sometimes result in faulty face orientations, missing faces, missing tangents, incorrect lightning and so forth. I've yet to find an empirical way to determine when something goes tits-up, but after I started checking for holes and closing them, I haven't encountered an issue ever since. So I think this is the safest way (even if it costs a few more polygons)
Gotcha. Thanks
When a model is made of several solid objects, it is best to have them intersecting... if they are not intersecting a little and are just near, in game, there will be white dots visible on the model itself and not only on the externe edges...
@myfist0
Well, meshlab is mainly a tool for correct 3D scan, able to work with million of poly.... in itself, only a few features are useful for sins model... by example, the filling hole is interesting, or the function for calculate weighted normal, or the function for merge duplicate edges, or for find the non manifold surface, or find the flipped faces, etc...
So, mainly it is a check tool...
Well, there is two thing when modeling... holes and transparent surfaces... holes are created by bridging two opposite surface... by example, a cylinder where you select the two round faces and bridge will result in a tube... both externe and interne surface will be on the UV map...
Now, it happen that due to modeling error, some surface of the object are deleted, creating a hole in the solid object... when converted, the interne surface will be filled with poly...
Related to your example, the middle piece, once converted, will use 48 poly for the inside of the piece...
It is not a modeling error, not a XSI error, simply something that the convert don't accept...
Same thing with transparent surface... it is used by a lot of game but sins convert transparent surface to hole...
Now, about your Kol engine, check the poly count before convert to .mesh and after... it is very possible that the poly count in the .mesh will increase...
By the way, the actual poly count of your Kol engine can be greatly reduced without changing the shape...
Well, when my main computer will be repair, i will be able to post some example on the other forum... if you wish see what we mean by holes/transparent surface, go to http://danmangames.com/forums/index.php?topic=2299.msg18462#msg18462 ... download the trash.wings ... open it in wings3d ... blue surface are holes/transparent surfaces... make a simple opengl render in wings3d for see the result... this example show something who will not work in sins ( but will work in almost any other game )...
@ThoumsinThanks for the detailed explanation!
yes, thanks Thoumisin
to both you guys for your recent help
Mesh lab added to the weebly
On topic of fixing mesh errors...
I tend to use multiple intersecting polys and occasionally get this error.
Error *** Found duplicate vertex at [125.5 , 31.5 , -269.9]
My solution for fixing this is to use the Poly. Mesh/Filter Points command.
Is this the correct way to resolve this problem? I don't seem to have any issues with the models in game, but would am curious to know what you all think as I plan to reiterate through my models soon.
Sorry, I can't tell if that's the correct way, since I correct my models in Cinema4D.Duplicate Vertex is mostly a duplicate of the mesh or part of the mesh that is in the same exact place as another part (or the duplicate) and thus using up the same exact space for a vertex. It is mostly harmless but can result in a weird meshfile sometimes when ConvertXSI optimises the mesh. Also, it means your model may use more triangles up then it should.
I think that it is the correct way... i am not sure about it because i don't know what software you are using... but it seem to have a similar name that a function of meshlab...
In meshlab, Function can be apply to point, edges or surface... you need to fill one distance parameter ( absolute or percent )... it simply collapse nearby point/edges/surface to a single point/edges/surface... just need to be carefull of not put a too much big distance/percent else the model can change of shape... and certainly make this step before the UV/segmenting stage...
In case of duplicate vertex, the two point will become a single point and resolve the problem... or create a new one... by example, you have two edges where the vertex are located at the same position... the collapse will result in the vertex from one edges mixing with the other, who lead to duplicate edges... so, it is best to apply the filter on the vertex, apply it again for the edges and conclude with surface... if you software allow a percent value in the distance, choose a low value, something like 0.1 to 0.2 percent at max...
Same method can be used for correct what i call "exploded" model... in some export case, i have receive model where each surface have become a object... by example, a solid cube become 6 flat square... collapse the vertex and the double edges will rebuild the solid cube...
At surface level, the function can be useful in some case of internal duplicate surface... by example, two identical cube touching by one face... after the function, you will have one single object where the two hidden surface ( the touching face ) will be removed ( spare 2 quad/4 triangle )... if a bridge was used in this case, it will have create 4 duplicate vertex...
In fact, there is a very easy way to check if a model is good or not... it is a simple mathematical formula... model need to be triangulated... Vertex+faces-edges=2xobj-2xtorus-3xhandle ... for these who have access to the Danmangame forum, simply look at http://danmangames.com/forums/index.php?topic=1805.msg17102#msg17102 ... if the result is not good, it mean that something is wrong with the model ( double vertex, double edges, etc ... ) ... if the result is good, the model will be perfect in sins...
Thanks for the additional explanation on the error. Unfortunetly, I doubt I'll be purchasing Cinema4D though anytime soon as this is only a hobby for me. I realize I get models that use a few more triangles than it maybe should, but I try to manage when and where this occurs and keep my models within sins limits as much as possible. I usually use one large extruded and shaped poly for the core of the ship. Luckily I do keep any intersecting polys closed now, some of my early models had hidden open polys but I didn't like getting the conversion errors so I stopped doing that.
I don't feel to bad about my results being self taught and starting a little over a year ago. Not too bad for an old programmer
I guess I'll just keep doing what I'm doing as it appears to be working.
Thanks, I am using Softimage XSI. I had downloaded meshlab previously and had plan to start getting familiar with it. I will attempt to fix my model following this and approach and see how it goes.
Thanks again!
Well, it is a good way... XSI don't like me, so i am not a expert... but from the various guide, your method is good... all "pro" 3D software have similar function... function name are not always identical from one software to the other but result is identical...
About meshlab, it is a good software but a lot of the more powerful function are not good documented ( main problem of free software )... will find it very useful is you begin make high poly model ( million or more poly )...
@ZombieRus5As a programmer and §D Artist myself, I encountered numerous problems with the first models I tried to create. Thanks to people like Thoumsin I now know what to look for (most of the time). XSI is a fine program (and much more versatile than Cinema4D) but I like the simple and intuitive interface of Cin4D and I got it as a payment for some work I was doing (well, I got the cash to buy the program to make the work, and a little besides that) so I'm sticking to it for now.
Just as 3dsmax is my weapon of choice, because it was the first program i learned to mesh with.
This discussion indeed has made me look at things in a new perspective. Thanks for the help, and feedback guys.
Always welcome!! You've done so much for the community so we do as much as we can to help.
Thanks very much @Major Stress. I bought this game a few weeks ago and the first day I played it mini-dumped. I was unaware of the 2 gig cap on memory and it appears (after reading through the post/replies) that the cap is what caused the problem. Keep up the good work, my friend.
Do not thank me. I just got the project started. Thank all who contributed,and helped us make it happen.
Hmmmmm... well THIS is an interesting development.
So what's the gameplan for the TSOP now?
I hadn't realized that when I delete a polygon to rebuild the shape, that it messed up the interior info. Very interesting. Never needed the interior info for anything 3D Max related before, so never paid attention to it.
And I always close up holes when I see them. But I weld them to the next mesh, not close the hole and push the two together....
I have not seen any issues with your optimized models yet. Let me know when you want a file converted to mesh to test.
I have a script that imports from 3ds max and does everything but the tangents and another convert mesh script so it takes only a few minutes once I have the 3ds file.
Very well then. I will start, uh, continue optimizing the starbases.... Yes I have had zero time, and being the holidays, may not get much done.
But I will try!
And thanks myfist0, I will send you them once I get done to test them out.
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