It is difficult to explain the issues of Sins have without going into too much "technical detail" which some may not understand. The main problem is that Sins is an older generation 32 bit game. With a two gigabyte memory limit. This is nothing new. All 32 bit games have a 2 gig memory limit. However Sins is NOT like other 32 bit games. Most games have an ability to load their assets "on the fly", or only as needed. Some games can also unload assets that are not needed. This is how they prevent themselves from reaching the 2 gig limit. Some games have been patched to where they can use up to 4 gigs of ram on 64 bit systems.
Sins also can load only what is needed at game start up, but Sins does NOT unload what it does not use. Any assets that are loaded remain loaded throughout the entire game! If you use all three factions (Six in the case of Rebellion), Then Sins will load ALL of its game assets at start up. Entrenchment, and Diplomacy in some games loaded between 1.7 to 1.9 gigs worth of assets at game start up! Graphic settings, The size of the Map, and the amount of Players, or AI opponents also determine how much ram Sins will use in any given session.In 2006 when Sins was first conceived 32 bit Windows XP was the standard OS of the time. Single core CPU's were also still the standard. Though dual core CPU's were starting to become mainstream, and 2 gigs was considered to be "plenty" of memory. So most game developers at the time didn't have to worry about hitting that dreaded 2 gig brick wall. As time went on Computers, and Sins itself evolved into their present state which is now Rebellion, and soon to be Windows 10 running in multiple core 64 bit systems. With 16+ gigs of ram. Things have changed so much over the years. However Sins still remained the 32 bit game as it was designed in 2006. That uses only a single core of your CPU. With a two gigabyte hard coded memory limit. Sins WILL CRASH when the game reaches that 2 gig limit.There is some misunderstanding about the 2 gig crash issue. The dump happens when Sins reaches 2 gigs of Ram Usage. That means the ram that Sins uses by itself. NOT what your entire operating system, and/or other programs you are running combined uses. Only the ram that Sins uses. No matter how powerful your system is. If it is 32, or 64 bit, or if it is Windows XP, Vista, 7, 8, etc. etc. Sins WILL CRASH when it hits its 2 gig ram limit. It is hard coded into the game.Nobody was aware that this would be a major problem back when the game was first designed, because Sins was designed based on the hardware standards of 2006-2007. Before 64 bit OS's, Quad Core cpu's, and 4+ gig ram systems became the standard that they are now. There is nothing that can be done about it. Except to re-write Sins in 64 bit. Which is out of the question, because it is too cost prohibitive for the developers to do this (Ironclad said so themselves). Sins is a great game, and it is a shame that this is happening. With the Entrenchment, and Diplomacy expansions Ironclad had unintentionally pushed the game over its own hard coded limitations with all of the new added content.
Over the years as of the release of Diplomacy 1.3, and Rebellion. Stardock, and Ironclad did indeed fix all of the major game crashing issues of Sins. Using the fix's from This Project as a guide. However, NONE of these fix's ever made it into Entrenchment, or Original Sins! While the Stardock, and Ironclad developers have fixed most of these issues over years. They can not do anything to change the game itself short of reprogramming Sins over from scratch. The developers can do no more, but there is something that WE can do as modders to prevent Sins from hitting that dreaded 2 gig brick wall, and improve the performance of Sins "just a little bit more". I have taken the initiative, and applied to Sins what i have learned from my Homeworld Modding days. I present to you....
The goal of this project is to improve your Vanilla Sins gaming experience, and to eliminate the 2 gig crash issue. No changes will be made to Original Sins, or any of its Expansions in game play at all. No stat changes will be made. Nothing "new" will be added. There are other mods that can do that. Original Sins will remain Original Sins, and the Expansions will remain as they are. What we are doing is taking what game assets that Sins already has, and we are "optimizing" them to improve the performance, stability, and to moderate the ram usage in game. The side benefit will be that some lower end systems can enjoy almost the same gaming experience as the high end users do (Especially Laptop Users).The project initially started out as an idea to reduce the texture sizes, and poly counts of some models. Not just arbitrary reductions. The goal was to maintain the quality of Sins in game. To make it look as if nothing has been changed at all. We started with optimizations to the Planet's, and Skybox's, because they were the "worst offenders" as far as ram usage, and performance was concerned. Unfortunately my modeling skills left much to be desired in Softimage XSI at the time, and there were un-fixable mesh errors on the optimized planet meshes. Despite that the "proof of concept" was established. A lot of ram was saved, and there was a very noticeable increase in performance.Then we studied the Particle files, and Textures. Many of the particle textures in our opinion were way too high in resolution for the purpose that they served. A reduction in texture resolution by HALF showed no visible difference in game at all! There were some exceptions where the particle resolution reduction difference was very noticeable in game, and those textures were reverted back to their original resolutions. Remember the goal was NOT to reduce in game quality. Also all of the particle textures were changed from TGA format to DDS format, because DDS uses a little less memory, and is much more efficient, because DDS format loads directly into video memory. The particles can also utilize the mip mapping features of DDS format. Where TGA format does not. Therefore enhancing in game video performance (increased FPS). As of version 0.07 no TGA format textures load in TSOP. With the exceptions of the Mouse Cursors, and Scenario Pictures. This is due to those textures being controlled by the hard coded exe. When you change the texture format those textures do not show up in game.The developers mentioned something about a Memory Leak. I heard that a memory leak can be caused by a file searching for something over, and over again if it is not there. Example a mesh file calling for a texture that does not exist. Vanilla Sins had MANY particle, and mesh files that had that issue. We removed all of the entries that pointed to non existent textures in the mesh, and particle files. We also removed the entries that have lines like for example "C;\g\main\datasource\textures\effects\aura4.dds", and just used "aura4.dds". This will default the search to Sins, or the Mods "Textures" folder, and speed things up a bit. Also various typo's were corrected in some mesh, and particle files. Some ships had mesh nulls that were Miss-Labeled. For example the Akkan had nulls, and flairs that were miss-labeled. The engine trails, and flairs didnt show up in game. the Marza was missing its bomb nulls. etc. etc. All of this has been corrected as well. If there is a ships mesh file in the mods "Mesh" folder then it had something wrong with it that was fixed. The Soundata, and Galaxydef files had errors too. Regardless if any of these issues caused any memory leaks, or not these issues MUST be fixed! (and they were as of Diplomacy 1.3, but NOT for Original Sins, or Entrenchment).After the Meshes, Particles, Textures, and the User Interface were optimized, and the very obvious issues were fixed there was a tremendous boost in game performance. Sins ram usage was greatly reduced. As of TSOP 0.07 I could run a game of Entrenchment, or Diplomacy ALL DAY, and I NEVER used more than 1.5 gigs of ram! This was using Maximum Settings. Including Bloom enabled. Tested on Huge Random Multi Star maps with 9 AI's. The 2 gig crash problem has been solved! Our primary goal with this project has been achieved! Without having to use any external memory increasing programs! Stardock, and Ironclad took notice, and they used TSOP as a guide in the Diplomacy 1.3 patch, and for developing Rebellion.Now that the Stardock, and Ironclad have fixed the issues of the game as of Diplomacy 1.3, and Rebellion. TSOP has been focusing more on Original Sins, and Entrenchment. Since the Ironclad/Stardock fixes never made it into Original Sins, or Entrenchment. However, That is not stopping us from optimizing Diplomacy, or Rebellion "just a little bit more" You can also use Large Address Aware to give Sins an extra gig to play with, but in vanilla Original Sins, and Entrenchment the Endless Search Loop issues that were never fixed will cause the game to eventually go over that extra gig (Run vanilla Entrenchment, and watch your ram usage keep going up, and up, and up). TSOP is a solution that will stop that issue.
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Downloads
The Sins Optimization Project v1.0
For Original Sins 1.195
For Entrenchment 1.055
For Diplomacy 1.37
Stardock, and Ironclad fixed all of the issues that compelled us to make TSOP. Therefore there is no TSOP for Diplomacy
For Rebellion 1.82
As with Diplomacy, Stardock, and Ironclad fixed all of the issues that TSOP pointed out, and then some in the case of Rebellion. Sins: Rebellion is as optimized as any Sins game is going to get.
NOTE: TSOP 0.07 is still hosted on ModDB, and it still works in the current versions of Trinity (OS, E, and D), but you will be playing as if Sins was patched to an older version of the game. Plus some Icons and Buttons wont be visible.
Changes in TSOP 1.0
TSOP 1.0 updated to the latest versions of Original Sins, and Entrenchment.
The User Interface is completely overhauled to use pure DDS format.
Trade Ships, Strike Craft, Mines, and Constructor Unit Meshes, and Textures are Optimized.
Starbase Textures are optimized mimicking the Stardock Rebellion Optimizations.
Sounds, and Music are optimized.
All TGA format Textures are replaced with DDS format, and TSOP "force" loads them. The only TGA textures that remain are the Mouse Cursers, and Scenario Pictures. This is due to hard code in the EXE.
"Strategic Texture Reductions" for the Particles return using newer methods to create a better looking texture.
(Original Sins, and Entrenchment) Many Mesh Null issues, and various File Errors were corrected, and Unnecessary Text Entry's were removed in both the Mesh, and Particle files. Entry's pointing to Non Existent Textures in both the mesh, and particle files removed. See the various "Fixed Files" texts in the mods Read Me for details.
(Original Sins, and Entrenchment) The Diplomacy 1.3 graphic fix's have been incorporated into the Original Sins, and Entrenchment versions of TSOP (Pipeline Effects, "White Line" error fix, and Corrected Mesh files).
TSOP 1.0 for Trinity will see the return of Optimized Planets using the planet meshes from Rebellion! but with our Optimized Original Sins Textures!
There will be no version of TSOP made for Diplomacy, or Rebellion, because there is no need for it. Only Original Sins, and Entrenchment need TSOP, because the 2 gig issue, and various other issues were never fixed in those two versions of the game.
This is the FINAL version of TSOP that i will make. If the community wants to take over the project they are more than welcome to.
Community input, and contributions are more than welcome, and they are encouraged! This is a Community Project! All can pitch in!
Note: TSOP does not fix the known issue of "Late Game Lag". It does help prolong the lag until further into the game in some cases, but sooner, or later the lag will happen. The late game lag issue is a CPU issue due to the fact that Sins (including Rebellion) is optimized to use only single core processors. Therefore Sins will use only one core in multi core CPU's. To help with the late game lag issue we recommend the following:
Playing on smaller maps.
Using fewer AI opponents.
Disabling the Trade Ship icons (this actually helps out a lot)
Stacking the icons in the empire tree (same as with disabling trade ship icons the less icons rendered the better).
Using a Strike Craft Reduction mod (The many strike craft in the game are a big CPU hog. There are some good strike craft mods that reduce the number, but maintain the balance. Search for them).
You do not need to download all versions of TSOP. You only need to download the version of TSOP for the specific version of Sins you wish to play. The Retail version of Trinity is just all three versions of Sins bundled into one package. Installation for Trinity versions of Sins are no different than if you purchased each version of Sins separately.
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Other mods are more than welcome to use TSOP. No questions asked! In fact we encourage it! Learn from it! Use it as guide, and an example! Merge it into your projects!
TSOP is intended to be a Stand Alone mod. Run with no other mods enabled. There are issues enabling TSOP with other mods. Enabling with other "Graphic Enhancement" mods is NOT recommended, because the graphic enhancement mod will defeat the entire purpose of TSOP. All of our optimized files will be overridden by that enhancement mods "enhanced" files. Increasing your ram usage instead of decreasing it. Some enhancement mods like Distant Stars are incorporating elements of TSOP into their future updates.
Read the included READ ME text's for installation instructions.
Totally agree Imperium.
Of course we are here, Just busy with RL and modeling (at least for me). Speaking of that, here is the first starbase optimization....
Original Advent starbase, lvl 1 - 6424 Verts
Optimized Advent starbase, lvl 1 - 2065 Verts
Anyone like over a 60% improvement?
Now for the upgraded versions, and the rest of them....
Yup RL making other plans for us as usual. Sorry i havent been around, but u know how it goes.
I expect the winter season to be slow so i may be able to get at least something accomplished here. Siv pm me what u got so far and ill start working on getting it in game.
60% is HUGE. Hows the detail look? I have ways of making sections with curves, saucers, and spheres look 10k, but are really 2k, but that involves creating new meshes from scratch. Something i did not want to do with the IC models.
(I hope this doesn't double post, it logged me out while I was typing this! )
So, I went through and merged this with my customized copy of Distant Stars (as well as continued just changed virtually ever tga to a dds that hadn't been already. Sorta needed it for the bk/ve stuff), and I must say, the performance improvement is phenomenal. It was actually rather amusing playing DS with the effects settings completely on max (well, except for the camera shake, cause I just didn't want it.) I didn't play for very long, was mostly just test running it for about an hour or two on a huge map (DS's Big Blue), and the ram usage only got, at most, 1.75 gig or so. Held pretty steady before I stopped at 1.707. I suspect as time went on, I'd eventually have to turn the graphics back down, but still, was pretty nice to last that long with no worry of a dump or anything. Honestly, I'm really looking forward to seeing how much the lower poly models help improve it more.
Could I request, though, that one of the next set of models that are reduced be the strike craft? Those things are probably far more detailed then they need to be, considering both how often people likely zoom into them, and with the sheer number of them that get created.
Also, SivCorp, there's 3 weird null points in the advent starbase mesh file. Labeled 0, 9, and 3 I believe. Any idea what those might actually be? I'd love to check myself, but I sadly have nothing available to load the mesh's up into directly.. and anything I do to convert it into an xsi file (which doesn't do me any good now either, 'cause mod tool refuses to install on my system.. I think it's the whole 64 bit thing, but heck if I know for sure there) loses all the texture and point info. I've wondered if they they were part of the Weapon-2 set (part of my customizing was changing those on the starbase to beams, 'cause I'm beam lover, and I always thought it was weird that the Advent's base didn't use'm. So I've noticed that the 'rear' (well, the backside of the huge towers) weapons for that type virtually never fire, and the rare times when they do, they fire from the center.) But I've found those points in all the variations of the starbase, so I don't think it's actually that.. so they're just kinda bizarrely there.
First of all, the strike craft have already been reduced. Any further reduction would impact them too much visually. The aim of TSOP is to minimally impact the visual while gaining the most performance. This is why Mines, for example, are not simply replaced with icons.
Second, Null points I have not looked into. I simply do not have the time right now to figure out the whole modding thing. I'm an expert in modeling, texturing and that's really it. I won't know what coding to look into for those null points. I will look into it a little bit, but I can't promise anything. Stress or MyFist may be able to look into it though....
Oh, and good to know that there was no problem melding TSOP into DS.
(On a more personal note: I've recently injured my back, and therefor it pains me just to type this. I will be back in the saddle as soon as I can. If only I could fix the Verts in my back )
Reject their reality and substitute your own?
I am aware of the advent starbases strange null points, and i am not exactly sure why they are named like that. I havent had the time to do much research on it. I dont know yet if they are named that way for a reason, and if we remove them if it will cause problems, or not. I will look into this once i get some free time available.
Sorry to hear about your back Siv. Get well soon.
Found a small issue with Sins vanilla (1.91) cargo ship reduction mod..
tsop_cargo_ship_reduction.rar\TSOP Cargo Ship Reduction OS\GameInfo
ability:0 "AbilityRevengeBounty"ability:1 "AbilityRevengeBounty"
To fix, change the second one to
ability:1 ""
Love, Love, Love, Love your work on TSOP. It is VERY appreciated, we are unworthy, etc. I have a top of the line computer as far as this game is concerned (dual core 3gh, 4 gigs of fast ram; 8800 gtx video, asus MB). More ram, more cores would not help Sins performance.
After I installed your TSOP mod, I could not believe how much MORE detail I could see. Meaning, I think some items simply were not getting rendered prior to installing your mod. Suddenly I could see a lot more strikecraft and exhaust trails. Of course now that I just installed the cargo ship and strikecraft reduction mods, there will be less strike craft.
But I'm still excited to see this! Going to play now. see yas.
AWESOME WORK !!
Played for 7 hours with the strike craft and cargo / trade ship reduction. The minor reduction in strike craft and cargo/trade ships was not at all noticeabe. The gameplay was simply fantastic. Huge hugs to ya guys for all the hard work!
Now, if someone could incorporate the Celestial Bodies mod (or vice versa), that would rool. I'd love to check out that mod, but i don't think it's for sins 1.91 and if it's benefiting from TSOP work.
I have entrenchment, but recently went back to vanilla because I think star bases trivialize playing against the AI. I've also come to find the anti-module "ballistic wpn" ships game imbalancing.
Just FYI Sins has a hardcode limit for rendering particles. I think its 5000 or something like that. In huge battles that could be why some are not seeing some effects.
This mod is awesome! Every modder should take part in this project!
Thanks a lot for this great mod
We do. We provide encouraging words of praise and inspiration and incorporate their work into our own stuff so that it may serve it's purpose faithfully in providing gamers with the best experience possible.
This mod is the backbone of my own modification of Sins. Thanks to you guys, I can play my mod for hours on a 21 star map with over 110 planets fairly smooth and my laptop has a 128mb graphic card and 3 gigs of ram God bless you guys
Not true, you can adjust the particlecount in the file User.SettingsUse the lines
MaxParticleCount 6000MaxParticleSimulationsCount 2000
Thanks to Thoumsin for this info!
I was not aware that you could do that. My info was old news then. TY Tobiwahn for the correction.
RL still interfering with the my gaming free time. So no progress to report.
Hey guys, found this issue with TSOP D. Looks like the pact screen was saved over with one of the button template files.
Actually the problem is in the "ScreenInGame " Window file....
brush name "PlayerScreenAlliancesBackdropLong" content "Simple" fileName "Buttons_Backgrounds.dds2.dds" pixelBox [ 276 , 15 , 737 , 383 ]
It should look like this:
brush name "PlayerScreenAlliancesBackdropLong" content "Simple" fileName "Buttons_Backgrounds2.dds" pixelBox [ 276 , 15 , 737 , 383 ]
I know when converting these to read .dds after a while everything becomes one big blur.
Thank you for spotting that error. Sometimes we bust our butts trying to fix stuff, and wind up creating an error of our own.
it should be easy enough for the community to correct themselves with wordpad.
Check the Buttons_Interface.dds texture for Entrenchment (TSOP_Trinity_0.071) it seems to be missing the game speed (increase/decrease) buttons
A question for the major.....
Due to my lack of time to optimize, what do you think about using the fully upgraded models of each star base exclusively? The Advent one i had been working on was the base model one, and has become corrupted somehow. So rather than start over and be behind some more, I was thinking just using the fully upgraded model on each base. No upgrade changes, no 3 meshes, just the one. Thoughts?
Do not feel bad. I have had ZERO free time to mod myself let alone do anything else but go straight to bed after work myself. This is troubling because i am supposed to make meshes for Star Ruler, but have no time to do so. Apologies to the community, but it is what it is, and there is nothing i can do about it at the moment. I need to keep my day job.
I didnt understand the 3 separate meshes myself. The Tech base is the only one you notice any visible changes. Vasari base too, but not as noticeable. The advent base you hardly notice any changes at all when upgraded, because the upgrade components are tiny compared to the base itself. In SoA 2 we use only one mesh for the starbases. All of the upgrade nulls are on that one mesh, and it causes no problems for the game. So i would say yes on the single meshes. The same would apply for the structure upgrades as well. Like the turrets, and hangar defenses.
Copy that, good sir.
Once I get some time, I will get those single meshes done. And I'll incrementally save to avoid any unruly corruption issues.....
From a other topic :
Being a modeler, i can say that there is several ways for reach you goals...
First, take a look at http://www.worldwidetelescope.org/docs/worldwidetelescopeprojectionreference.html ... what you need is a equirectangular projection...
Download the file on my server : http://www.love-from-russia.be/Archive.zip
Inside, you will find a file called planet.obj ... for test, you can test it with cl-01.tga ( own map ) or with cl-02.tga ( NASA map ) by editing the planet.mtl ...for more planet, take a look at http://www.mmedia.is/~bjj/planetary_maps.html
For a way who fully eliminate strech, the TOAST ( Tessellated Octatedral Adaptive Subdivision Transform ) projection look great but build map can be very difficult... in the Archive, i have join a other model, called planet_tri_equi.obj ... not segmenting or UV are yet done but since all triangle have a identical size, it is possible to segment it in a way that not streching appear but it will be difficult to texture due to the seam...
Best is to use the planet object who use map with a ratio 2:1... these projection are numerous on the net and very little surface on the map is loose.
two screenshot below... first one using a NASA texture, second one using one of my own texture...
In fact, the model called planet.obj was for moon only... i have a other model for planet with two sphere... one for the surface and one for the cloud... not sure that the last will work with sins since transparency is needed... same thing for the planet with rings...
Now, it is your job to test it if it work in sins ( not sure that the game engine can handle a equirectangular projection )... if it work, i will begin to seek after some texture set that i have make long time ago... i think that i have maybe 10-20 different planet... with cl map, cloud map, bump map and specular map...
Really hope that these post will help to resolve your planet problem...
Thank you for the info Thoumsin. I explained in another post i think the problem now is my computers themselves. As in they are too "new". Both are 64 bit machines running windows 7. I do not want to downgrade them because surprisingly windows 7 has never given me one problem yet. So far the most reliable OS microshaft put out.
ConvertXSI has not been updated in a long time (2008 i believe was the last update). In fact it is still the same ConvertXSI that was released when IC swapped the Specular, and Team color channels on the model shaders.
I posted this before as well. The issue i believe is that ConvertXSI is not completely compatible with newer versions of Softimage. It will convert your dotxsi to mesh format, and that mesh will run in game, but there is a 50/50 chance that ConvertXSI will create mesh errors if the mesh was made with anything higher than XSI 6.0. I never had problems like i am having now using ConvertXSI with Softimage XSI 6.0 (the same modeling program Ironclad used to create Sins meshes). I am currently using softimage 7.5. Since XSI 6.0 does not work with windows 7, or Vista. My meshes no matter how error free they are in XSI come out screwed up after i use ConvertXSI on them.
This is telling me that it is not "me", because i triple checked the meshes in various other modeling programs for errors before i convert it. Other people have had trouble with this as well. There is something happening during the conversion process that is causing the errors. The obvious answer is that ConvertXSI is not compatible with softimage 7.5+. It works, but just barely.
If i had an older 32 bit machine that ran windows XP i can test this theory. Like i said i am not downgrading to run just one program.
Others can test this too by trying a 7.5 conversion compared to a 6.0 conversion and checking the results.
@Major StressI'm running 64 Bit Win7 as well, using XSI 7.5. After learning about Meshlab and checking all my model with it before importing them into XSI I've had zero problems with ConvertXSI. Perhaps you might try that route.
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