It is difficult to explain the issues of Sins have without going into too much "technical detail" which some may not understand. The main problem is that Sins is an older generation 32 bit game. With a two gigabyte memory limit. This is nothing new. All 32 bit games have a 2 gig memory limit. However Sins is NOT like other 32 bit games. Most games have an ability to load their assets "on the fly", or only as needed. Some games can also unload assets that are not needed. This is how they prevent themselves from reaching the 2 gig limit. Some games have been patched to where they can use up to 4 gigs of ram on 64 bit systems.
Sins also can load only what is needed at game start up, but Sins does NOT unload what it does not use. Any assets that are loaded remain loaded throughout the entire game! If you use all three factions (Six in the case of Rebellion), Then Sins will load ALL of its game assets at start up. Entrenchment, and Diplomacy in some games loaded between 1.7 to 1.9 gigs worth of assets at game start up! Graphic settings, The size of the Map, and the amount of Players, or AI opponents also determine how much ram Sins will use in any given session.In 2006 when Sins was first conceived 32 bit Windows XP was the standard OS of the time. Single core CPU's were also still the standard. Though dual core CPU's were starting to become mainstream, and 2 gigs was considered to be "plenty" of memory. So most game developers at the time didn't have to worry about hitting that dreaded 2 gig brick wall. As time went on Computers, and Sins itself evolved into their present state which is now Rebellion, and soon to be Windows 10 running in multiple core 64 bit systems. With 16+ gigs of ram. Things have changed so much over the years. However Sins still remained the 32 bit game as it was designed in 2006. That uses only a single core of your CPU. With a two gigabyte hard coded memory limit. Sins WILL CRASH when the game reaches that 2 gig limit.There is some misunderstanding about the 2 gig crash issue. The dump happens when Sins reaches 2 gigs of Ram Usage. That means the ram that Sins uses by itself. NOT what your entire operating system, and/or other programs you are running combined uses. Only the ram that Sins uses. No matter how powerful your system is. If it is 32, or 64 bit, or if it is Windows XP, Vista, 7, 8, etc. etc. Sins WILL CRASH when it hits its 2 gig ram limit. It is hard coded into the game.Nobody was aware that this would be a major problem back when the game was first designed, because Sins was designed based on the hardware standards of 2006-2007. Before 64 bit OS's, Quad Core cpu's, and 4+ gig ram systems became the standard that they are now. There is nothing that can be done about it. Except to re-write Sins in 64 bit. Which is out of the question, because it is too cost prohibitive for the developers to do this (Ironclad said so themselves). Sins is a great game, and it is a shame that this is happening. With the Entrenchment, and Diplomacy expansions Ironclad had unintentionally pushed the game over its own hard coded limitations with all of the new added content.
Over the years as of the release of Diplomacy 1.3, and Rebellion. Stardock, and Ironclad did indeed fix all of the major game crashing issues of Sins. Using the fix's from This Project as a guide. However, NONE of these fix's ever made it into Entrenchment, or Original Sins! While the Stardock, and Ironclad developers have fixed most of these issues over years. They can not do anything to change the game itself short of reprogramming Sins over from scratch. The developers can do no more, but there is something that WE can do as modders to prevent Sins from hitting that dreaded 2 gig brick wall, and improve the performance of Sins "just a little bit more". I have taken the initiative, and applied to Sins what i have learned from my Homeworld Modding days. I present to you....
The goal of this project is to improve your Vanilla Sins gaming experience, and to eliminate the 2 gig crash issue. No changes will be made to Original Sins, or any of its Expansions in game play at all. No stat changes will be made. Nothing "new" will be added. There are other mods that can do that. Original Sins will remain Original Sins, and the Expansions will remain as they are. What we are doing is taking what game assets that Sins already has, and we are "optimizing" them to improve the performance, stability, and to moderate the ram usage in game. The side benefit will be that some lower end systems can enjoy almost the same gaming experience as the high end users do (Especially Laptop Users).The project initially started out as an idea to reduce the texture sizes, and poly counts of some models. Not just arbitrary reductions. The goal was to maintain the quality of Sins in game. To make it look as if nothing has been changed at all. We started with optimizations to the Planet's, and Skybox's, because they were the "worst offenders" as far as ram usage, and performance was concerned. Unfortunately my modeling skills left much to be desired in Softimage XSI at the time, and there were un-fixable mesh errors on the optimized planet meshes. Despite that the "proof of concept" was established. A lot of ram was saved, and there was a very noticeable increase in performance.Then we studied the Particle files, and Textures. Many of the particle textures in our opinion were way too high in resolution for the purpose that they served. A reduction in texture resolution by HALF showed no visible difference in game at all! There were some exceptions where the particle resolution reduction difference was very noticeable in game, and those textures were reverted back to their original resolutions. Remember the goal was NOT to reduce in game quality. Also all of the particle textures were changed from TGA format to DDS format, because DDS uses a little less memory, and is much more efficient, because DDS format loads directly into video memory. The particles can also utilize the mip mapping features of DDS format. Where TGA format does not. Therefore enhancing in game video performance (increased FPS). As of version 0.07 no TGA format textures load in TSOP. With the exceptions of the Mouse Cursors, and Scenario Pictures. This is due to those textures being controlled by the hard coded exe. When you change the texture format those textures do not show up in game.The developers mentioned something about a Memory Leak. I heard that a memory leak can be caused by a file searching for something over, and over again if it is not there. Example a mesh file calling for a texture that does not exist. Vanilla Sins had MANY particle, and mesh files that had that issue. We removed all of the entries that pointed to non existent textures in the mesh, and particle files. We also removed the entries that have lines like for example "C;\g\main\datasource\textures\effects\aura4.dds", and just used "aura4.dds". This will default the search to Sins, or the Mods "Textures" folder, and speed things up a bit. Also various typo's were corrected in some mesh, and particle files. Some ships had mesh nulls that were Miss-Labeled. For example the Akkan had nulls, and flairs that were miss-labeled. The engine trails, and flairs didnt show up in game. the Marza was missing its bomb nulls. etc. etc. All of this has been corrected as well. If there is a ships mesh file in the mods "Mesh" folder then it had something wrong with it that was fixed. The Soundata, and Galaxydef files had errors too. Regardless if any of these issues caused any memory leaks, or not these issues MUST be fixed! (and they were as of Diplomacy 1.3, but NOT for Original Sins, or Entrenchment).After the Meshes, Particles, Textures, and the User Interface were optimized, and the very obvious issues were fixed there was a tremendous boost in game performance. Sins ram usage was greatly reduced. As of TSOP 0.07 I could run a game of Entrenchment, or Diplomacy ALL DAY, and I NEVER used more than 1.5 gigs of ram! This was using Maximum Settings. Including Bloom enabled. Tested on Huge Random Multi Star maps with 9 AI's. The 2 gig crash problem has been solved! Our primary goal with this project has been achieved! Without having to use any external memory increasing programs! Stardock, and Ironclad took notice, and they used TSOP as a guide in the Diplomacy 1.3 patch, and for developing Rebellion.Now that the Stardock, and Ironclad have fixed the issues of the game as of Diplomacy 1.3, and Rebellion. TSOP has been focusing more on Original Sins, and Entrenchment. Since the Ironclad/Stardock fixes never made it into Original Sins, or Entrenchment. However, That is not stopping us from optimizing Diplomacy, or Rebellion "just a little bit more" You can also use Large Address Aware to give Sins an extra gig to play with, but in vanilla Original Sins, and Entrenchment the Endless Search Loop issues that were never fixed will cause the game to eventually go over that extra gig (Run vanilla Entrenchment, and watch your ram usage keep going up, and up, and up). TSOP is a solution that will stop that issue.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Downloads
The Sins Optimization Project v1.0
For Original Sins 1.195
For Entrenchment 1.055
For Diplomacy 1.37
Stardock, and Ironclad fixed all of the issues that compelled us to make TSOP. Therefore there is no TSOP for Diplomacy
For Rebellion 1.82
As with Diplomacy, Stardock, and Ironclad fixed all of the issues that TSOP pointed out, and then some in the case of Rebellion. Sins: Rebellion is as optimized as any Sins game is going to get.
NOTE: TSOP 0.07 is still hosted on ModDB, and it still works in the current versions of Trinity (OS, E, and D), but you will be playing as if Sins was patched to an older version of the game. Plus some Icons and Buttons wont be visible.
Changes in TSOP 1.0
TSOP 1.0 updated to the latest versions of Original Sins, and Entrenchment.
The User Interface is completely overhauled to use pure DDS format.
Trade Ships, Strike Craft, Mines, and Constructor Unit Meshes, and Textures are Optimized.
Starbase Textures are optimized mimicking the Stardock Rebellion Optimizations.
Sounds, and Music are optimized.
All TGA format Textures are replaced with DDS format, and TSOP "force" loads them. The only TGA textures that remain are the Mouse Cursers, and Scenario Pictures. This is due to hard code in the EXE.
"Strategic Texture Reductions" for the Particles return using newer methods to create a better looking texture.
(Original Sins, and Entrenchment) Many Mesh Null issues, and various File Errors were corrected, and Unnecessary Text Entry's were removed in both the Mesh, and Particle files. Entry's pointing to Non Existent Textures in both the mesh, and particle files removed. See the various "Fixed Files" texts in the mods Read Me for details.
(Original Sins, and Entrenchment) The Diplomacy 1.3 graphic fix's have been incorporated into the Original Sins, and Entrenchment versions of TSOP (Pipeline Effects, "White Line" error fix, and Corrected Mesh files).
TSOP 1.0 for Trinity will see the return of Optimized Planets using the planet meshes from Rebellion! but with our Optimized Original Sins Textures!
There will be no version of TSOP made for Diplomacy, or Rebellion, because there is no need for it. Only Original Sins, and Entrenchment need TSOP, because the 2 gig issue, and various other issues were never fixed in those two versions of the game.
This is the FINAL version of TSOP that i will make. If the community wants to take over the project they are more than welcome to.
Community input, and contributions are more than welcome, and they are encouraged! This is a Community Project! All can pitch in!
Note: TSOP does not fix the known issue of "Late Game Lag". It does help prolong the lag until further into the game in some cases, but sooner, or later the lag will happen. The late game lag issue is a CPU issue due to the fact that Sins (including Rebellion) is optimized to use only single core processors. Therefore Sins will use only one core in multi core CPU's. To help with the late game lag issue we recommend the following:
Playing on smaller maps.
Using fewer AI opponents.
Disabling the Trade Ship icons (this actually helps out a lot)
Stacking the icons in the empire tree (same as with disabling trade ship icons the less icons rendered the better).
Using a Strike Craft Reduction mod (The many strike craft in the game are a big CPU hog. There are some good strike craft mods that reduce the number, but maintain the balance. Search for them).
You do not need to download all versions of TSOP. You only need to download the version of TSOP for the specific version of Sins you wish to play. The Retail version of Trinity is just all three versions of Sins bundled into one package. Installation for Trinity versions of Sins are no different than if you purchased each version of Sins separately.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Other mods are more than welcome to use TSOP. No questions asked! In fact we encourage it! Learn from it! Use it as guide, and an example! Merge it into your projects!
TSOP is intended to be a Stand Alone mod. Run with no other mods enabled. There are issues enabling TSOP with other mods. Enabling with other "Graphic Enhancement" mods is NOT recommended, because the graphic enhancement mod will defeat the entire purpose of TSOP. All of our optimized files will be overridden by that enhancement mods "enhanced" files. Increasing your ram usage instead of decreasing it. Some enhancement mods like Distant Stars are incorporating elements of TSOP into their future updates.
Read the included READ ME text's for installation instructions.
Those numbers look promising SivCorp and great job X getting this to us ASAP
Going to add this section to the TSOP Downloads page and these are direct links
TSOP Add-ons
Cargo Ship Reduction by Xalderon_
[WIP] Squadron Automation by Mystic Angel
Strike Craft Reduction by WhoeverGetsItDoneFirst
These changes will *definitely* affect the balance of SC. This includes anti-SC abilities on cap ships, but it extends to non-ability balance as well.
1) Any ability that is (partially) balanced by a target cap will benefit from any change that condenses power into fewer ships. Consider Magnetize on the Dunov. It destroys SC regardless of their health, so condensing ships together makes Magnetize much stronger.
2) Conversely, attacks that inflict raw damage to an infinite number of targets will be nerfed. Flak Burst and (to a lesser extent) Telekinetic Push depend on their ability to damage/destroy all enemy SC within a radius. If lvl3 FB (60dmg) hits 100 regular Advent fighters, they're all destroyed. If it hits your modified fighters, they all survive. The effects could be even larger if you consider Vasari fighters (regular=85hp). Two flak bursts cost a lot of AM, but at level 3 they should wipe out all Vasari fighters in the radius. If you bump them up to 170hp then it's quite possible that even three flak burst shots won't get the fighters (when you consider armor and regen). Then consider the Skiranta's repair cloud, which will definitely complement the survivability of these new super-tough fighters.
3) Aside from the max-target issue, any change that condenses unit power will probably act as a buff because tougher units live longer and have more time to inflict damage. (e.g., In a stand-up fight, one unit with 2x DPS and 2x HP will always beat 2 units with 1x DPS and 1x HP because the side with more-but-weaker units will take casualties sooner and suffer a drop to their total DPS). If you don't double everything (e.g., you could leave regen as-is) then they wouldn't really be 2x stronger.. But I still think you'd see some differences because their increased survivability should give SC a bit more power vs defended targets (e.g., bombers will live a bit longer when under fire from fighters or flak).
I still think this might be a good idea to increase performance, but if you want to maintain the game's current balance then I don't think you can make this as simple as decreasing squad size and proportionally increasing unit HP/DPS.
I think that you are right about not enough strike craft getting destroyed fast enough. When you redistribute the hull points and damage among fewer craft this way, it certainly gives them an advantage against area of effect abilities like the Kol's flak, because fewer targets are getting damaged at a time against the same hull point total. On the other hand, it will be a disadvantage when faced with weapons targeting individual strike craft, because there are now fewer to target. Large swarms of weak craft are far more powerful than fewer, stronger air wings when they have to be individually targeted. So, while this change is perhaps balanced overall, it tips things in favor of individual targeting of strike craft being better relative to area of effect abilities. So, this change is definitely some flavor other than vanilla.
But, we're talking about an optional add-on here for people playing large maps and suffering from bad lag, and at some point a significant speed reduction is worth some mild shift in game balance. So, we should proceed with this.
so how is the income rate calculated anyway? isent it based on the amount of ships and distance or something? or do changing the numbers of ship not affect the income of the player owning them?
All valid points.
How much of an effect do strike-craft have though? Personally I blame the "late-game all planets get turned in to trade hubs with a gazillion ships."If it were strike-craft mostly, wouldn't the lagg decrease notable when the enemy fleet has been pummelled in to dust and they have very few planets left?
At that point I've seeded all planets with trade én massé, and the lagg just keeps on going up.
Silly question maybe, but how do I use those minimods?
i agree that since its optional, it can nicely be made, but i also agree with herrpuinguin in the fact that its will just mess up the balance too much in an unpleasant way, with the foundry and trade ships this is marginal ( hell, now shooting the blasted ships down actually has a use ) so its actualy an improvement in my eyes.
is there a way that you can modify a ships 'shoot at me and hit' rating btw? we could always boost them in this way if possible? just double the firepower, half their 'you can hit me x% of the time' and half the squadsize? the flak would still be able to have the same affects, ( well maybe we need to have those auto-hit or something, is 200% hitrate possible? )
and so would magnatize.
in the trade ship ones is an explenation. simply put, their adjustments to your main mods. they overwrite and /or change certain things in the coding.
Got 'em installed, will try them out later.
Thanks again mate!
Income is calculated based on the longest trade route you have. From https://www.sinsofasolarempire.wikia.com/wiki/Trade_Port
"The base income rate for a trade port is 1 credit per second. 0.075 credits per second are added to the income for each of your trade ports for each jump in the longest trade route you have. For example, if you have a continuous trade route 4 jumps long, you would earn 1.3 credits per second at each of your ports.
Multiple ports at a planet DO stack. You receive income for each of them. However, it is better to spread your ports out, so you expand the length of your longest trade route and boost your income more.
The above numbers may seem wrong to you; they may seem too low. However, if you play on 'Normal' speed, all income is boosted by 15%. If you play on 'Fast' speed, all income is boosted by 30%. Once you apply these modifiers, all should calculate correctly.
Trade depots send out trade ships to do their work. If a trade ship is destroyed, credits are awarded to the destroying player and the income of the depot goes down until it is replaced in 25 seconds."
So changing the number of ships doesn't affect income until one of them dies. Then there is a penalty inflicted until it is respawned. I've reduced the ships to about half, and increased the penalty for losing one to double by doubling the respawn time. The credits/resources gained by the killer are also doubled.
Ok a few things...
1) While i appreciate the enthusiasm let us try to keep the arguments over balance as brief as possible. I really did not want to dig into the balancing aspect of Sins just for this reason. All made some very good points. However i do NOT want this topic to turn into a balance flame fest. We are opening pandoras box by messing with Sins balancing. This is why these changes are going to be made as "optional add-ons" instead of being fully integrated into TSOP. So that if anyone wants the vanilla stats back. Just remove the add-on.
2) Being that these are optional add-ons they need to have instructions on how to remove them once they are installed. Include backups of the files they are replacing with the download so that it will make things a little easier for the guys new to modding. Until then i can't list them on the main topic.
Nobody mentioned anything about the half a billion mines the AI spams during the course of a standard game, or the remnant pirate raid fleets that return to the base after each successful raid. They dont disappear. They just accumulate until you hit the pirate base itself. Its fun attacking a pirate base in diplomacy that has over 200 ships waiting for you....NOT!
Good work. Get uninstall instructions done and ill get them up
Great points all Major.
Who the hell zooms in on a mine. Lets make them all simple cubes but keep the same zoom out icon.
I did figure on doing the backups for merge and info for stacking but figured it will only be a few people testing things and there would be changes so I was not in a hurry. I will work on it today.
The reduced SC will be a hot topic for a while, I can make a new thread for it if you like. To me the SC are a bigger contributor to lag than the Cargo ships. All those hundreds or even thousands of meshes being recalculated every time a scout or cargo ship goes through a planet. Today I think I might try a ram test with no SC in game and I am willing to bet it will be the biggest lag remover.
EDIT: Added this section to the Downloads Page and working backups and info for them now
I have produced an updated cargo ship reduction minimod with uninstall files and directions. A copy sent to myfist0 for now.
Is there any interest in the second, more severe version of the mod that I mentioned, where I would cut trade ships from 5 to 1, and refinery ships from 10 to 2?
Just completed it.
I thought the basic idea of this mod was to keep things simple, to run Sins better. But now your adding add- ons?
My opinion is this game is splintered enough. just my opinion.
I'm watching, waiting for the final results, before downloading and testing, but you keep adding stuff.
Xalderon I'd be interested, sure.
Its very simple. If you dont want it, dont download it. The add-ons are wanted but because they will change gameplay slightly they will not be included with TSOP. TSOP is pure optimized and fixed files only.
This project will probably continue to change for quite some time. There are still many files to search for bugs and typos and only 1% of the meshes have been optimized. I would say this project will be done when nobody plays Sins any longer.
@BFroberg: There will be a direct link shortly to the Severe Caargo Ship Reduction later today. I am working in the strike craft.
Understood wbino.
I'm sure Stress and the rest of us are not looking at getting too much into this. The main objective of the mod has been reached. The 2 GB ram limit crash has been solved. If this is all you are looking for, then this version is the best one for that. The only things left to add is mine reduction and pirate fixs (if possible).
This other add-on buisness is just for getting large and huge maps to work without much lag. I feel (and I think the rest of you all do too) that this game was ment to be played on huge maps with massive fleets. Imagine the cinimatics! The huge fleet battles! I would save it and watch the replays over and over from different points of view, like a scifi movie
But in order to get to this point, the Iron Engine needs less stress on its fragile frame. Reducing trade, refinery, and strike craft units is the easiest way to achieve this. Those ships have already been reduced down in polys and textures. This is the next obvious step. I'm sure we can all reach a consensus on what the best plan of attack is here.
For now, I will optimize Mines and get those to you very soon, Major Stress.
UPDATE: The tech mine has 1500 Polys!!! No wonder there is lag!!! This WILL be fixed....
Sivcorp
Your saying as of the current version I can play all Mods at what level and not have to worry about the 2 gig crash?
I'm sure I'll enjoy all the benefits of your hard work as soon as I'm done wrestling with SOGE.
Two questions..
I love the smaller scale of the ships in SOGE. Do smaller ships take up less ram to draw than a bigger cousin?
Did anyone fiqure out to dock SC when no enemy's are in the well?
Has anyone yet given thought to how we might actually reduce the number of mines in the game? After all, I play OS, and I can't really say I miss them.... Is using fewer mines that do more damage an option?
I haven't really looked but I think its hard coded. Another option would be to make a personal mod that removes the mines all together but thats for another thread.
Mystic Angel spent a lot of time doing that exact thing for me and I havent had any time to test it yet. Its on the table for today. That discussion is here [Community Effort] Additions/Changes for next patch
Oh, I don't know, that sounds like it would make a good TSOP add-on.
You can play with the TSOP mod at Highest settings on a decent rig and not worry about the 2 GB crash, Yes.
Yes the smaller ships save on ram use.
And myfist0 has the answer to the srike craft issues.
NOTE: I've pulled the tech mines from 1500 polys down to under 500... a great reduction.
I know the DS mod has reduced mines and increased their power, so I know it is possible to change those settings... Not sure what would be best there....
Why can't you just scrap the mine meshes and use simple tetrahedrons in their place? 4 polys.
At the least this should be available as another add-on. I'm sure most people who would install add-ons for strike craft reduction, which can actually change the game a little, would do this one for sure.
We are "trying" to keep this simple. That is why we set up the add ons as an option. So that if you chose to use it then it is there. If not then you can simply ignore it.
The main project itself will live by the "keep it simple" rule, or keep it as simple as humanly possible. Plus since those add-ons change the balance of Sins i do NOT want them as part of the main project. See what did i tell you. Pandoras box has been opened :/
I believe the entitys themselves determine how many mines are deployed. I will have to look into this. However if we do reduce the mine numbers. like with the strike craft, and trade ships we alter the balance of the game. How much of this do we plan on doing? I stated that vanilla Sins stats wouldnt be touched. As an optional add on altering the stats can be done experimentally. However there is NO WAY something that alters the sins stats will be merged into the main project. Just keep that in mind. If it does change gameplay that drastically then another way must be found.
As of version 0.03 the 2 gig issue has been fixed. So yes you will not 2 gig crash running TSOP. However if you enable other mods over TSOP the other mods will cancel out the work we have done. Other mods are working on incorporating what we have done here so far.
Right all of these things altering numbers of things I would understand to be add-ons. But they will be invaluable for people who are playing larger games. I think it makes sense to have a 2 tiered product here. The core TSOP to take things as far as possible while keeping the game itself untouched, and then the extra mods for those who are willing to sacrifice a little in the game balance to get some serious help with large game lag. With convenient uninstallation available (the included uninstall directories), people would switch add-ons on and off depending on the size of the game they were playing. I'd suggest a single package to conveniently install all the separate add-ons at once as an option also.
That will be looked into. It is still too early to determine the best route.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account