It is difficult to explain the issues of Sins have without going into too much "technical detail" which some may not understand. The main problem is that Sins is an older generation 32 bit game. With a two gigabyte memory limit. This is nothing new. All 32 bit games have a 2 gig memory limit. However Sins is NOT like other 32 bit games. Most games have an ability to load their assets "on the fly", or only as needed. Some games can also unload assets that are not needed. This is how they prevent themselves from reaching the 2 gig limit. Some games have been patched to where they can use up to 4 gigs of ram on 64 bit systems.
Sins also can load only what is needed at game start up, but Sins does NOT unload what it does not use. Any assets that are loaded remain loaded throughout the entire game! If you use all three factions (Six in the case of Rebellion), Then Sins will load ALL of its game assets at start up. Entrenchment, and Diplomacy in some games loaded between 1.7 to 1.9 gigs worth of assets at game start up! Graphic settings, The size of the Map, and the amount of Players, or AI opponents also determine how much ram Sins will use in any given session.In 2006 when Sins was first conceived 32 bit Windows XP was the standard OS of the time. Single core CPU's were also still the standard. Though dual core CPU's were starting to become mainstream, and 2 gigs was considered to be "plenty" of memory. So most game developers at the time didn't have to worry about hitting that dreaded 2 gig brick wall. As time went on Computers, and Sins itself evolved into their present state which is now Rebellion, and soon to be Windows 10 running in multiple core 64 bit systems. With 16+ gigs of ram. Things have changed so much over the years. However Sins still remained the 32 bit game as it was designed in 2006. That uses only a single core of your CPU. With a two gigabyte hard coded memory limit. Sins WILL CRASH when the game reaches that 2 gig limit.There is some misunderstanding about the 2 gig crash issue. The dump happens when Sins reaches 2 gigs of Ram Usage. That means the ram that Sins uses by itself. NOT what your entire operating system, and/or other programs you are running combined uses. Only the ram that Sins uses. No matter how powerful your system is. If it is 32, or 64 bit, or if it is Windows XP, Vista, 7, 8, etc. etc. Sins WILL CRASH when it hits its 2 gig ram limit. It is hard coded into the game.Nobody was aware that this would be a major problem back when the game was first designed, because Sins was designed based on the hardware standards of 2006-2007. Before 64 bit OS's, Quad Core cpu's, and 4+ gig ram systems became the standard that they are now. There is nothing that can be done about it. Except to re-write Sins in 64 bit. Which is out of the question, because it is too cost prohibitive for the developers to do this (Ironclad said so themselves). Sins is a great game, and it is a shame that this is happening. With the Entrenchment, and Diplomacy expansions Ironclad had unintentionally pushed the game over its own hard coded limitations with all of the new added content.
Over the years as of the release of Diplomacy 1.3, and Rebellion. Stardock, and Ironclad did indeed fix all of the major game crashing issues of Sins. Using the fix's from This Project as a guide. However, NONE of these fix's ever made it into Entrenchment, or Original Sins! While the Stardock, and Ironclad developers have fixed most of these issues over years. They can not do anything to change the game itself short of reprogramming Sins over from scratch. The developers can do no more, but there is something that WE can do as modders to prevent Sins from hitting that dreaded 2 gig brick wall, and improve the performance of Sins "just a little bit more". I have taken the initiative, and applied to Sins what i have learned from my Homeworld Modding days. I present to you....
The goal of this project is to improve your Vanilla Sins gaming experience, and to eliminate the 2 gig crash issue. No changes will be made to Original Sins, or any of its Expansions in game play at all. No stat changes will be made. Nothing "new" will be added. There are other mods that can do that. Original Sins will remain Original Sins, and the Expansions will remain as they are. What we are doing is taking what game assets that Sins already has, and we are "optimizing" them to improve the performance, stability, and to moderate the ram usage in game. The side benefit will be that some lower end systems can enjoy almost the same gaming experience as the high end users do (Especially Laptop Users).The project initially started out as an idea to reduce the texture sizes, and poly counts of some models. Not just arbitrary reductions. The goal was to maintain the quality of Sins in game. To make it look as if nothing has been changed at all. We started with optimizations to the Planet's, and Skybox's, because they were the "worst offenders" as far as ram usage, and performance was concerned. Unfortunately my modeling skills left much to be desired in Softimage XSI at the time, and there were un-fixable mesh errors on the optimized planet meshes. Despite that the "proof of concept" was established. A lot of ram was saved, and there was a very noticeable increase in performance.Then we studied the Particle files, and Textures. Many of the particle textures in our opinion were way too high in resolution for the purpose that they served. A reduction in texture resolution by HALF showed no visible difference in game at all! There were some exceptions where the particle resolution reduction difference was very noticeable in game, and those textures were reverted back to their original resolutions. Remember the goal was NOT to reduce in game quality. Also all of the particle textures were changed from TGA format to DDS format, because DDS uses a little less memory, and is much more efficient, because DDS format loads directly into video memory. The particles can also utilize the mip mapping features of DDS format. Where TGA format does not. Therefore enhancing in game video performance (increased FPS). As of version 0.07 no TGA format textures load in TSOP. With the exceptions of the Mouse Cursors, and Scenario Pictures. This is due to those textures being controlled by the hard coded exe. When you change the texture format those textures do not show up in game.The developers mentioned something about a Memory Leak. I heard that a memory leak can be caused by a file searching for something over, and over again if it is not there. Example a mesh file calling for a texture that does not exist. Vanilla Sins had MANY particle, and mesh files that had that issue. We removed all of the entries that pointed to non existent textures in the mesh, and particle files. We also removed the entries that have lines like for example "C;\g\main\datasource\textures\effects\aura4.dds", and just used "aura4.dds". This will default the search to Sins, or the Mods "Textures" folder, and speed things up a bit. Also various typo's were corrected in some mesh, and particle files. Some ships had mesh nulls that were Miss-Labeled. For example the Akkan had nulls, and flairs that were miss-labeled. The engine trails, and flairs didnt show up in game. the Marza was missing its bomb nulls. etc. etc. All of this has been corrected as well. If there is a ships mesh file in the mods "Mesh" folder then it had something wrong with it that was fixed. The Soundata, and Galaxydef files had errors too. Regardless if any of these issues caused any memory leaks, or not these issues MUST be fixed! (and they were as of Diplomacy 1.3, but NOT for Original Sins, or Entrenchment).After the Meshes, Particles, Textures, and the User Interface were optimized, and the very obvious issues were fixed there was a tremendous boost in game performance. Sins ram usage was greatly reduced. As of TSOP 0.07 I could run a game of Entrenchment, or Diplomacy ALL DAY, and I NEVER used more than 1.5 gigs of ram! This was using Maximum Settings. Including Bloom enabled. Tested on Huge Random Multi Star maps with 9 AI's. The 2 gig crash problem has been solved! Our primary goal with this project has been achieved! Without having to use any external memory increasing programs! Stardock, and Ironclad took notice, and they used TSOP as a guide in the Diplomacy 1.3 patch, and for developing Rebellion.Now that the Stardock, and Ironclad have fixed the issues of the game as of Diplomacy 1.3, and Rebellion. TSOP has been focusing more on Original Sins, and Entrenchment. Since the Ironclad/Stardock fixes never made it into Original Sins, or Entrenchment. However, That is not stopping us from optimizing Diplomacy, or Rebellion "just a little bit more" You can also use Large Address Aware to give Sins an extra gig to play with, but in vanilla Original Sins, and Entrenchment the Endless Search Loop issues that were never fixed will cause the game to eventually go over that extra gig (Run vanilla Entrenchment, and watch your ram usage keep going up, and up, and up). TSOP is a solution that will stop that issue.
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Downloads
The Sins Optimization Project v1.0
For Original Sins 1.195
For Entrenchment 1.055
For Diplomacy 1.37
Stardock, and Ironclad fixed all of the issues that compelled us to make TSOP. Therefore there is no TSOP for Diplomacy
For Rebellion 1.82
As with Diplomacy, Stardock, and Ironclad fixed all of the issues that TSOP pointed out, and then some in the case of Rebellion. Sins: Rebellion is as optimized as any Sins game is going to get.
NOTE: TSOP 0.07 is still hosted on ModDB, and it still works in the current versions of Trinity (OS, E, and D), but you will be playing as if Sins was patched to an older version of the game. Plus some Icons and Buttons wont be visible.
Changes in TSOP 1.0
TSOP 1.0 updated to the latest versions of Original Sins, and Entrenchment.
The User Interface is completely overhauled to use pure DDS format.
Trade Ships, Strike Craft, Mines, and Constructor Unit Meshes, and Textures are Optimized.
Starbase Textures are optimized mimicking the Stardock Rebellion Optimizations.
Sounds, and Music are optimized.
All TGA format Textures are replaced with DDS format, and TSOP "force" loads them. The only TGA textures that remain are the Mouse Cursers, and Scenario Pictures. This is due to hard code in the EXE.
"Strategic Texture Reductions" for the Particles return using newer methods to create a better looking texture.
(Original Sins, and Entrenchment) Many Mesh Null issues, and various File Errors were corrected, and Unnecessary Text Entry's were removed in both the Mesh, and Particle files. Entry's pointing to Non Existent Textures in both the mesh, and particle files removed. See the various "Fixed Files" texts in the mods Read Me for details.
(Original Sins, and Entrenchment) The Diplomacy 1.3 graphic fix's have been incorporated into the Original Sins, and Entrenchment versions of TSOP (Pipeline Effects, "White Line" error fix, and Corrected Mesh files).
TSOP 1.0 for Trinity will see the return of Optimized Planets using the planet meshes from Rebellion! but with our Optimized Original Sins Textures!
There will be no version of TSOP made for Diplomacy, or Rebellion, because there is no need for it. Only Original Sins, and Entrenchment need TSOP, because the 2 gig issue, and various other issues were never fixed in those two versions of the game.
This is the FINAL version of TSOP that i will make. If the community wants to take over the project they are more than welcome to.
Community input, and contributions are more than welcome, and they are encouraged! This is a Community Project! All can pitch in!
Note: TSOP does not fix the known issue of "Late Game Lag". It does help prolong the lag until further into the game in some cases, but sooner, or later the lag will happen. The late game lag issue is a CPU issue due to the fact that Sins (including Rebellion) is optimized to use only single core processors. Therefore Sins will use only one core in multi core CPU's. To help with the late game lag issue we recommend the following:
Playing on smaller maps.
Using fewer AI opponents.
Disabling the Trade Ship icons (this actually helps out a lot)
Stacking the icons in the empire tree (same as with disabling trade ship icons the less icons rendered the better).
Using a Strike Craft Reduction mod (The many strike craft in the game are a big CPU hog. There are some good strike craft mods that reduce the number, but maintain the balance. Search for them).
You do not need to download all versions of TSOP. You only need to download the version of TSOP for the specific version of Sins you wish to play. The Retail version of Trinity is just all three versions of Sins bundled into one package. Installation for Trinity versions of Sins are no different than if you purchased each version of Sins separately.
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Other mods are more than welcome to use TSOP. No questions asked! In fact we encourage it! Learn from it! Use it as guide, and an example! Merge it into your projects!
TSOP is intended to be a Stand Alone mod. Run with no other mods enabled. There are issues enabling TSOP with other mods. Enabling with other "Graphic Enhancement" mods is NOT recommended, because the graphic enhancement mod will defeat the entire purpose of TSOP. All of our optimized files will be overridden by that enhancement mods "enhanced" files. Increasing your ram usage instead of decreasing it. Some enhancement mods like Distant Stars are incorporating elements of TSOP into their future updates.
Read the included READ ME text's for installation instructions.
TXT format files are a little larger than BIN format. The texture locations where bad so they were changed to look directly in the texture folder instead of the developers drive and not finding it then looking in the texture folder. Here is 1 example...
Mesh\Planet_Ice_1.mesh DiffuseTextureFileName "C:\PlanetIce01-cl.dds" SelfIlluminationTextureFileName "C:\PlanetIce01-da.dds" --> DiffuseTextureFileName "PlanetIce01-cl.dds" SelfIlluminationTextureFileName "PlanetIce01-da.dds"
with the old mesh it will always look in C:\ first and not find it so then it looks in the games texture folder.
Mesh\Planet_Ice_1.meshDiffuseTextureFileName "C:\PlanetIce01-cl.dds"SelfIlluminationTextureFileName "C:\PlanetIce01-da.dds"-->DiffuseTextureFileName "PlanetIce01-cl.dds"SelfIlluminationTextureFileName "PlanetIce01-da.dds"
I see, these are just fixed but not optimized. So if we converted these back to .bin they would be about the same size as the original files Sins is installed with? Would there be any advantage to doing so?
BIN format just helps the game load a little quicker, other than than there is no difference
Go to http://soase.weebly.com/convertdata.html if you want to change them to BIN format
I'm back Fist0 got busy with work and stuff so my PR for Opti pittered out a bit. also now I'm in the middle of moving to a new place so now I'm gonna be offline for a lack of internet reason. Anyway just wanted to know what progress you guys made as far as updates and stuff. You ever finish up the DS/Opti with the Distant Stars crew?
Also I'm going back to college in the spring for I.T. (financial aid dropped the ball this semester -.-; ) anyway, gonna do it all lol, from basic codding to analysis and repairs.(plus the 4 foreign languages, so if one economy gets bad I'll just move =3)
Bad Tune~ Friendly Neighborhood PR guy
Apologies i screwed up.. I Used the Original Sins versions of Buttons_Main_CursorOver, Buttons_Main_Normal, Buttons_Main_Pressed, and Buttons_Main_Disabled UI textures. Which the only difference is the Entrenchment version has the starbase upgrade icons.
Uploaded the correct UI textures on the main topic. Just drop them into The Entrenchment, and Diplomacy versions textures folder overwriting the existing textures.
If there is a mesh file in the TSOP mesh folders then something was wrong with it in the Vanilla game that had to be fixed.
I will do the uploads and have some new links tomorrow.
EDIT: Here is 2 fixed mirrors for Trinity. I named them 0.071 to be able to tell which is which. Will do the singles tomorrow.
Well, I think it kind-of works. I didn't experience as much of an improvement as I'd hoped in late game..
I still maintain my theory that all the trade drones/ships are responsible for much of it.
Mapping all those travel-paths for so many units has to take some doing.
i can agree with this, i have a shitty laptop that stil runs the game GREAT wit hthis, but as soon as i pop into a system with too much of these damn trade ships in one system ( im a sucker for HUGE trade hubs, same with huge foundy planets.. )
it slows right the hell down
no worries m8, anyone can make a slip up, and your still doing stellar work together with your co-modders couldn't have done it myself all who make this mod possible!, go you guys -thumbs up-
Great now merge it with the Star Trek mod for trinity/diplomacy. Make it so.
Sorry for the lack of update and such.... I've been on a much needed vacation this past week.
Good to see that .07 has come out. I'm looking forward to checking it out and seeing how much improvement I get on my test system.
Now back to optimizing some meshes
Oh, and nice website!
This is why for my games I have modded the numbers of those way down, to 2 trade ships per trade port and 5 refinery ships per refinery. They are worth twice as much to the faction that kills them, and penalize the owner twice as much when they die. They also have twice as many hull points. So, its like superimposing 2 of them on top of each other. Seems to help some, gives me about a 20% or so boost in game speed.
It also doesn't hurt to uncheck the box for showing cargo ship icons in game UI settings.
I agree that the trade ships, Relentless AI spamming of mines, and other NPC units are contributing to the late game lag problems. Along with the remnants of Pirate Raids that return to the base after they attack. Texture, and poly reductions to the meshes didnt seem to help very much. Though it is improved over vanilla. You still will get late game lag. Everyone does no matter what kind of system you have. I get it and my main box is damn near top of the line, or at the very least upper mid ranged. Well beyond the minimum requirements for Sins. This is why i think it is more of a CPU issue than a graphics issue. Though the rendering of so many units also contributes to the problem. Like what was said the CPU is figuring out all of the paths. Along with ability's, damage, and effects. Resources in even a high end system are not limitless. However our primary goal with the project has been achieved. Which is to eliminate the hard code 2 gig crash in Vanilla Sins.
I said there would be an improvement in performance, and in most cases there is a noticeable improvement in game performance. Especially in the early game. It depends mainly on your system specs, what kind of map you run, and how many AI's are active. I tested all three versions on the biggest maps with the most, and hardest AI's. Lag happens almost immediately at mid game. On my big box it is not so much of a problem cause it can maintain 19 FPS till the end game. Laggy, but playable. My laptop is another story. It becomes unplayable 3/4ths through the game. Nerfing graphic settings to all low, and disabling the optionals like asteroids, planet cars, and trade ship icons has no effect. More the reason to believe it is a CPU issue.
I said before that this is not a perfect solution. Basically your performance depends on your system.
Another thing.. We found the Obvious errors in our bug fix effort. There can be many more that are not so obvious in the files that we do not understand. like the pipeline effects. We are not programmers. I do not understand c++, or VB. If anyone that does understand can look through those files and find what we couldnt. Then that will be that much more of a boost.
Ummmm. Jaytlrpcs is the SoA 2 project lead now. I have retired from SoA 2, and no longer have any interest in it. Ask the SoA 2 team to merge it. Not us. It is not our job to merge TSOP with other mods. It is the other mod teams job. BTW The SoA 2 team already did merge TSOP. They just havent released yet.
Well, just got a dump to desktop due to lack of memory.. Epic. Was in the middle of pummeling the opposing forces, too.
Edit: Oh yeah my specs:
4 GB DDR2 Crucial Ballistix RAMCore2Duo E8500ATI HD 4700
I tried a game with 5 suns, 3 computer enemies and one computer ally.
I didn't notice much in the start of the game, but I did notice a slight improvement in the middle-game. End-game still laggs like a motherfucker, with some commands taking as long as 1-2 seconds to process.
I'll try tweaking the UI.
@ Xalderon: How can I make those modifications myself? I'm assuming a settings file somewhere? I'd really appreciate it, as I'm entirely sure by this stage that performance is due to all those trade/refinery ships. The reasoning behind it being, that I've tried games with all graphical settings set to minimum, and low resolution - and I still got end-game lagg.
Do you have more than 2 gigs of ram? Sins with TSOP enabled needs a minimum of 1.5 gigs at max settings.
See edit Mr. Major!
5 suns and 5 players... yeah.. that kinda tends to blow up the ram usage to LOOOOTS
no wonder your game went boom after a certain amount of time.
but for players who want to play maps this big:the easyist solution for them, if they want to comprimise, is reduce the trade ships to a third of their orriginal number, and just increase the amount of health x3 and the amount of resources they carry x3.
would reduce the late game lag by trading ships anyway... but yeah, that amount of players and resources and probably ships.. wil still eat the hell out of your ram
I was able to continue from an auto-save and pummel the darn computer-newbs in to submission though.
But I like the idea of reducing trade-ships, but how?
If you guys want I'll post my minimod for cargo ship reductions later tonight. It's here somewhere but I'm on my way to work at this moment.
Karma for the X man as soon as I get it.
I did 6+ hour "stress" tests on maximum settings with random gen multi star maps with 9 AI's. Sins with TSOP enabled NEVER went above 1.5 gigs of ram on ether system i tested it on (Sins itself. Not Sins plus everything else i am running). So i dont see how you could have 2 gig crashed unless you are running another mod on top of TSOP, or something else in your system is eating your ram up.
That may be the route we have to go to fight the late game lag. Reducing the number of units itself, but buffing them up to compensate for the lack of numbers.
I am at 4hrs in a 10 player viscous 5 star and the frame rate is slower but playable where without TSOP I would have quit already from the lag.
We need a formula for the strike craft.
Bombers
DamagePerBank FRONT
TTL Squad Damage
Fighters
EDIT:
We can do TTL Damage/Fighers to get a new DamagerPerBank
DamagePerBank
We can mix the cargo ship reduction with the strike craft reduction or separate?
Separate add-ons for TSOP or inter-grate?
I'd say integrate the unit reductions.. But that's just me. I figure with the re-textures, and some limits on refinery and trade ships - and strike craft apparently - we could indeed be golden!I might worry slightly about reduced effectiveness though? Won't the "kill all strikecraft" powers actually accomplish just that with fewer units flying about? Or is that calculated differently?
Major; Never used mods.. except for now. I think it might be due to the six hours it was running (Went and made dinner n' cleaned the house a bit while the resources accumulated.. ) After the crash it was very playable. Probably just a memory leak, then.
I'm gonna crunch some numbers on this and see what may work better.... and lets see how strike craft abilities would stack with it too.
I would suggest having a unit reduction mini mod with the main mod. If all someone plays is medium to small maps, it wont impact them. Have a different mod for the super-sized systems.
After crunching some numbers, I have found the following to be the best possible method of strike craft reduction....
Advent
Fighters 5 units - 28.8 TTL - 72 HP/u
Bombers 5 units - 48 TTL - 105 HP/u
Tech
Fighters 3 units - 39 TTL - 120 HP/u
Bombers 3 units - 74 TTL - 166 HP/u
Vas
Fighters 2 units - 61.5 TTL - 170 HP/u
Bombers 2 units - 115 TTL - 210 HP/u
(TTL = Damage per unit)
(HP/u = Hull points per unit)
This will keep the same DPS per squad the same for all factions, and still maintain a decent amount of strike craft without over doing it (and lagging the game).
The only problem now is how to balance the abilities to it. I propose doing nothing yet and testing it at these numbers first. The total damage per squad is the same, and the total hull points per squad is also the same. The abilities should not be influenced at all. The only problem I predict is that not enough strike craft will be getting destroyed to compensate for the increased damage per ship. What do you all think?
Ok folks, here is the cargo ship reduction minimod. I've reduced refinery ships from 10 to 5 and trade ships from 5 to 2, doubling the gain or loss for killing one, and doubling the hull points. I realize for trade ships this is not quite perfect, technically you could argue for 2.5X, but I think its close enough. I didn't want to make them too juicy a target for fear of changing the game.
If we really want to get hard core about unit reductions though, I could always go from 10 refinery ships to 2, and 5 trade ships to 1, and then it will be an even 5X for everything to balance it.
All 3 versions are in this single file, just look in the appropriate directory for the files for your version.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PPSZXCFT
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