It is difficult to explain the issues of Sins have without going into too much "technical detail" which some may not understand. The main problem is that Sins is an older generation 32 bit game. With a two gigabyte memory limit. This is nothing new. All 32 bit games have a 2 gig memory limit. However Sins is NOT like other 32 bit games. Most games have an ability to load their assets "on the fly", or only as needed. Some games can also unload assets that are not needed. This is how they prevent themselves from reaching the 2 gig limit. Some games have been patched to where they can use up to 4 gigs of ram on 64 bit systems.
Sins also can load only what is needed at game start up, but Sins does NOT unload what it does not use. Any assets that are loaded remain loaded throughout the entire game! If you use all three factions (Six in the case of Rebellion), Then Sins will load ALL of its game assets at start up. Entrenchment, and Diplomacy in some games loaded between 1.7 to 1.9 gigs worth of assets at game start up! Graphic settings, The size of the Map, and the amount of Players, or AI opponents also determine how much ram Sins will use in any given session.In 2006 when Sins was first conceived 32 bit Windows XP was the standard OS of the time. Single core CPU's were also still the standard. Though dual core CPU's were starting to become mainstream, and 2 gigs was considered to be "plenty" of memory. So most game developers at the time didn't have to worry about hitting that dreaded 2 gig brick wall. As time went on Computers, and Sins itself evolved into their present state which is now Rebellion, and soon to be Windows 10 running in multiple core 64 bit systems. With 16+ gigs of ram. Things have changed so much over the years. However Sins still remained the 32 bit game as it was designed in 2006. That uses only a single core of your CPU. With a two gigabyte hard coded memory limit. Sins WILL CRASH when the game reaches that 2 gig limit.There is some misunderstanding about the 2 gig crash issue. The dump happens when Sins reaches 2 gigs of Ram Usage. That means the ram that Sins uses by itself. NOT what your entire operating system, and/or other programs you are running combined uses. Only the ram that Sins uses. No matter how powerful your system is. If it is 32, or 64 bit, or if it is Windows XP, Vista, 7, 8, etc. etc. Sins WILL CRASH when it hits its 2 gig ram limit. It is hard coded into the game.Nobody was aware that this would be a major problem back when the game was first designed, because Sins was designed based on the hardware standards of 2006-2007. Before 64 bit OS's, Quad Core cpu's, and 4+ gig ram systems became the standard that they are now. There is nothing that can be done about it. Except to re-write Sins in 64 bit. Which is out of the question, because it is too cost prohibitive for the developers to do this (Ironclad said so themselves). Sins is a great game, and it is a shame that this is happening. With the Entrenchment, and Diplomacy expansions Ironclad had unintentionally pushed the game over its own hard coded limitations with all of the new added content.
Over the years as of the release of Diplomacy 1.3, and Rebellion. Stardock, and Ironclad did indeed fix all of the major game crashing issues of Sins. Using the fix's from This Project as a guide. However, NONE of these fix's ever made it into Entrenchment, or Original Sins! While the Stardock, and Ironclad developers have fixed most of these issues over years. They can not do anything to change the game itself short of reprogramming Sins over from scratch. The developers can do no more, but there is something that WE can do as modders to prevent Sins from hitting that dreaded 2 gig brick wall, and improve the performance of Sins "just a little bit more". I have taken the initiative, and applied to Sins what i have learned from my Homeworld Modding days. I present to you....
The goal of this project is to improve your Vanilla Sins gaming experience, and to eliminate the 2 gig crash issue. No changes will be made to Original Sins, or any of its Expansions in game play at all. No stat changes will be made. Nothing "new" will be added. There are other mods that can do that. Original Sins will remain Original Sins, and the Expansions will remain as they are. What we are doing is taking what game assets that Sins already has, and we are "optimizing" them to improve the performance, stability, and to moderate the ram usage in game. The side benefit will be that some lower end systems can enjoy almost the same gaming experience as the high end users do (Especially Laptop Users).The project initially started out as an idea to reduce the texture sizes, and poly counts of some models. Not just arbitrary reductions. The goal was to maintain the quality of Sins in game. To make it look as if nothing has been changed at all. We started with optimizations to the Planet's, and Skybox's, because they were the "worst offenders" as far as ram usage, and performance was concerned. Unfortunately my modeling skills left much to be desired in Softimage XSI at the time, and there were un-fixable mesh errors on the optimized planet meshes. Despite that the "proof of concept" was established. A lot of ram was saved, and there was a very noticeable increase in performance.Then we studied the Particle files, and Textures. Many of the particle textures in our opinion were way too high in resolution for the purpose that they served. A reduction in texture resolution by HALF showed no visible difference in game at all! There were some exceptions where the particle resolution reduction difference was very noticeable in game, and those textures were reverted back to their original resolutions. Remember the goal was NOT to reduce in game quality. Also all of the particle textures were changed from TGA format to DDS format, because DDS uses a little less memory, and is much more efficient, because DDS format loads directly into video memory. The particles can also utilize the mip mapping features of DDS format. Where TGA format does not. Therefore enhancing in game video performance (increased FPS). As of version 0.07 no TGA format textures load in TSOP. With the exceptions of the Mouse Cursors, and Scenario Pictures. This is due to those textures being controlled by the hard coded exe. When you change the texture format those textures do not show up in game.The developers mentioned something about a Memory Leak. I heard that a memory leak can be caused by a file searching for something over, and over again if it is not there. Example a mesh file calling for a texture that does not exist. Vanilla Sins had MANY particle, and mesh files that had that issue. We removed all of the entries that pointed to non existent textures in the mesh, and particle files. We also removed the entries that have lines like for example "C;\g\main\datasource\textures\effects\aura4.dds", and just used "aura4.dds". This will default the search to Sins, or the Mods "Textures" folder, and speed things up a bit. Also various typo's were corrected in some mesh, and particle files. Some ships had mesh nulls that were Miss-Labeled. For example the Akkan had nulls, and flairs that were miss-labeled. The engine trails, and flairs didnt show up in game. the Marza was missing its bomb nulls. etc. etc. All of this has been corrected as well. If there is a ships mesh file in the mods "Mesh" folder then it had something wrong with it that was fixed. The Soundata, and Galaxydef files had errors too. Regardless if any of these issues caused any memory leaks, or not these issues MUST be fixed! (and they were as of Diplomacy 1.3, but NOT for Original Sins, or Entrenchment).After the Meshes, Particles, Textures, and the User Interface were optimized, and the very obvious issues were fixed there was a tremendous boost in game performance. Sins ram usage was greatly reduced. As of TSOP 0.07 I could run a game of Entrenchment, or Diplomacy ALL DAY, and I NEVER used more than 1.5 gigs of ram! This was using Maximum Settings. Including Bloom enabled. Tested on Huge Random Multi Star maps with 9 AI's. The 2 gig crash problem has been solved! Our primary goal with this project has been achieved! Without having to use any external memory increasing programs! Stardock, and Ironclad took notice, and they used TSOP as a guide in the Diplomacy 1.3 patch, and for developing Rebellion.Now that the Stardock, and Ironclad have fixed the issues of the game as of Diplomacy 1.3, and Rebellion. TSOP has been focusing more on Original Sins, and Entrenchment. Since the Ironclad/Stardock fixes never made it into Original Sins, or Entrenchment. However, That is not stopping us from optimizing Diplomacy, or Rebellion "just a little bit more" You can also use Large Address Aware to give Sins an extra gig to play with, but in vanilla Original Sins, and Entrenchment the Endless Search Loop issues that were never fixed will cause the game to eventually go over that extra gig (Run vanilla Entrenchment, and watch your ram usage keep going up, and up, and up). TSOP is a solution that will stop that issue.
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Downloads
The Sins Optimization Project v1.0
For Original Sins 1.195
For Entrenchment 1.055
For Diplomacy 1.37
Stardock, and Ironclad fixed all of the issues that compelled us to make TSOP. Therefore there is no TSOP for Diplomacy
For Rebellion 1.82
As with Diplomacy, Stardock, and Ironclad fixed all of the issues that TSOP pointed out, and then some in the case of Rebellion. Sins: Rebellion is as optimized as any Sins game is going to get.
NOTE: TSOP 0.07 is still hosted on ModDB, and it still works in the current versions of Trinity (OS, E, and D), but you will be playing as if Sins was patched to an older version of the game. Plus some Icons and Buttons wont be visible.
Changes in TSOP 1.0
TSOP 1.0 updated to the latest versions of Original Sins, and Entrenchment.
The User Interface is completely overhauled to use pure DDS format.
Trade Ships, Strike Craft, Mines, and Constructor Unit Meshes, and Textures are Optimized.
Starbase Textures are optimized mimicking the Stardock Rebellion Optimizations.
Sounds, and Music are optimized.
All TGA format Textures are replaced with DDS format, and TSOP "force" loads them. The only TGA textures that remain are the Mouse Cursers, and Scenario Pictures. This is due to hard code in the EXE.
"Strategic Texture Reductions" for the Particles return using newer methods to create a better looking texture.
(Original Sins, and Entrenchment) Many Mesh Null issues, and various File Errors were corrected, and Unnecessary Text Entry's were removed in both the Mesh, and Particle files. Entry's pointing to Non Existent Textures in both the mesh, and particle files removed. See the various "Fixed Files" texts in the mods Read Me for details.
(Original Sins, and Entrenchment) The Diplomacy 1.3 graphic fix's have been incorporated into the Original Sins, and Entrenchment versions of TSOP (Pipeline Effects, "White Line" error fix, and Corrected Mesh files).
TSOP 1.0 for Trinity will see the return of Optimized Planets using the planet meshes from Rebellion! but with our Optimized Original Sins Textures!
There will be no version of TSOP made for Diplomacy, or Rebellion, because there is no need for it. Only Original Sins, and Entrenchment need TSOP, because the 2 gig issue, and various other issues were never fixed in those two versions of the game.
This is the FINAL version of TSOP that i will make. If the community wants to take over the project they are more than welcome to.
Community input, and contributions are more than welcome, and they are encouraged! This is a Community Project! All can pitch in!
Note: TSOP does not fix the known issue of "Late Game Lag". It does help prolong the lag until further into the game in some cases, but sooner, or later the lag will happen. The late game lag issue is a CPU issue due to the fact that Sins (including Rebellion) is optimized to use only single core processors. Therefore Sins will use only one core in multi core CPU's. To help with the late game lag issue we recommend the following:
Playing on smaller maps.
Using fewer AI opponents.
Disabling the Trade Ship icons (this actually helps out a lot)
Stacking the icons in the empire tree (same as with disabling trade ship icons the less icons rendered the better).
Using a Strike Craft Reduction mod (The many strike craft in the game are a big CPU hog. There are some good strike craft mods that reduce the number, but maintain the balance. Search for them).
You do not need to download all versions of TSOP. You only need to download the version of TSOP for the specific version of Sins you wish to play. The Retail version of Trinity is just all three versions of Sins bundled into one package. Installation for Trinity versions of Sins are no different than if you purchased each version of Sins separately.
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Other mods are more than welcome to use TSOP. No questions asked! In fact we encourage it! Learn from it! Use it as guide, and an example! Merge it into your projects!
TSOP is intended to be a Stand Alone mod. Run with no other mods enabled. There are issues enabling TSOP with other mods. Enabling with other "Graphic Enhancement" mods is NOT recommended, because the graphic enhancement mod will defeat the entire purpose of TSOP. All of our optimized files will be overridden by that enhancement mods "enhanced" files. Increasing your ram usage instead of decreasing it. Some enhancement mods like Distant Stars are incorporating elements of TSOP into their future updates.
Read the included READ ME text's for installation instructions.
All 3 versions packed together with 7z (free)
download -> ok
archive check -> ok
installing -> starting now
playing -> next
THANK YOU! and one for free ->
Update.
Barring any major crisis this weekend i will try to import SivCorps optimized builder units. It wont be much of a gain, but a gain regardless, and one more step in reducing the late game lag.
We need a texture artist.. Not just a good texture artist. We need a Master Artist to try and help us to fix the pole pinch problem we have with the planets and skybox's.
I have via PayPal transfer $25 to anyone that can texture that correctly. I know it's not much, but it is an incentive.
$25 for skybox issue resolved and fixed
another $25 for planet issue resolved and fixed.
PayPal to PayPal account transfer. Quality must be approved by Major Stress
Enthusiasm appreciated, but if we start paying people then we break the IC/Stardock EULA. This needs to be pure voluntary assistance. If i had more free time to study the problem i can probably solve it myself, but i do not have the free time right now. This is why i am asking the community for help. Hopefully from someone who has more texturing experience than i do.
What program should I use to open the file?
refer to post #376 at the top
Understood.
Some Sky box textures are not complete!
Have you not read the readme, the past few posts here, or the main topic?
The Planet, and Skybox textures are complete. It is the meshs themselves that are bugged (as in the UV's), and why we need an artist that can fix it. In other words we are already aware of the problem.
Make sure you are not running another mod with this.
Constructor Units are done and in game. Thank you SivCorp for some outstanding work! You cant tell the difference between the old, and the new at all in game. Which is our goal. The difference is the poly counts are much less, and the textures are reduced in size. It is not much of a gain in early game, but late game the performance difference should be very noticeable. As each saved poly adds up and equals better fps.
I uploaded the constructors as an add on to the mod. So you dont have to re-download TSOP. Just add the meshes to the mods Mesh folder, and the Textures to the mods Textures folder. It is compatible with the OS, E, and D versions, and interchangeable between all.
If Myfisto is willing he can make a new download with everything combined again
I could take a look at those if you want
Let me see if I can figure out the problem here.... I only need to find out what files are used with what.... any aid?
and BTW: I had a very heavy overtime week last week, so no upgrades yet... But I will get something done this week (hopefully)
I can send you all of the planet, and skybox 3dsmax master files. Ill just need your e-mail in a PM. Perhaps you will see something that i missed.
PM sent, and could you send me the originals from the game? I want to compare the methods of their usage to see if i can spot a way to do it better. Thanks!
Very cool work guys...I still lurk in the shadows awaiting total and complete optimization!
How about a little artwork for the mod
Pngs that can be size for whatever you want or I can add characters or ships something like these. Click on Pics.
Thank You to all who are working on this project! And Thank You for your positive attitude when dealing with the more negative elements of the community. As far as the game goes - I am running a laptop that I bought earlier this year and by 2010 standards is by my guess, middle-quality. Even in the early game my strike craft would get there when they get there, but now they Zoooooom! I also have to think faster about my next moves as game speed has increased. Keep in mind that I like to play Diplomacy cutom maps with a ridiculous amount of planets (150-200) - all pre-colonized, with pirates and max players. The texure artwork and sound have no real noticable flaws, and as far as "pole-pinch" is corcerned, it's not like there's a big transparent gaping hole that you can see into the planet sphere itself, so in my opinion SO WHAT? The game itself has become more challenging and enjoyable! I am not the kind of guy who is going to buy a $15000 stereo just to make old Beatles record sound better! In fact even though I can run the game at Highest graphics settings I turn the ship quality to Low as I am kind of nostalgic for that "You sunk my Battleship!" type feel. Will let you Know what happens in late-game stages as I am not there yet (it's gonna take awhile). I will be in heaven when the DS team make their mod TOP compatible!
One more thing... just for my general knowledge.... even with the graphics set to LOW, the polys used to construct the object and place the textures upon are still there? Just curious as I am a noob to being anything other than your basic "Joe End-User".
Once again Commander-In-Chief Stress and all involved Thank You. It is apparent that those who do it purely for the love of it will excel greatly!
Major Stress. You win the interwebs for eternity. I'm playing a Full map with full settings and 10 players with maxed fleets and only feeling minimal lag. Thanks for your time and effort put into this.
How it is supposed to work if i get the general idea of it is that once you zoom out to a certain distance a mesh is "supposed" to be replaced with an icon. However i dont think that is happening. I think the icons are just covering the meshes. Not replacing them. My point was further proven when you switch to cinematic mode. Many cases the lag got worse when you switch to cinematic. Even if zoomed all the way out. So i think every mesh on the map is rendered regardless of how far away it is zoomed. This is why we are poly crunching.
Sins meshes do not use a "LOD" or "level of detail" system. That means the 12000 poly Advent starbase remains 12000 polys no matter what. The Iron engine is brilliant for the fact that it can render all those tri's even on lower end systems. Other game engines would make your system beg for mercy trying to render the same amount of tri's. However there is still major lag in late game when 1000's of units are being rendered at once.
"if" you want to play custom maps with custom planets, and skybox's you will need to remove the planet, and skybox meshes, and textures from the mod. Otherwise you will run into problems like what you described above. This mod uses a unique mesh for the planets, and Skybox's that is UV mapped differently than how Vanilla is. The UV's on our meshes are still bugged, and we are working on fixing it. The reason for that is because i just made "quick, and dirty" UV's, and the textures are also "quick, and dirty". So some flaws are very visible. I just have not had the free time to fix them yet.
The only thing that uses any sort of level of detail are the textures. Only if they are in .dds format. DDS uses mip mapping which means when you zoom out it switches to a lower resolution as you zoom out. This is why it bugged me when IC used TGA for the particle textures. TGA doesnt use mip mapping, and uses more memory to load than DDS. TGA remains at full resolution no matter how far out you zoom.
When you switch to low, medium and high on your game settings it only effects the textures. Nothing else. Meshes remain the same amount of Tri's. no matter the effects settings.
That is some extremely interesting information. Some of it I had suspected, namely about the polys still rendering even as you zoom out. I didn't know about DDS and mip mapping, so I guess that's one more advantage to you guys replacing some of the TGA textures with DDS.
Would'nt a MAJOR savings in memory come if someone fiqured out how to dock all those strikecraft when there are no enemy's in the wells?
Instead of the game having them flying around their carriers all the time. just my 2 cents.
I too would really like to figure this out
Also thinking about that because I am making a mini mod that adds the 5 strikecraft types from Mad Scientist
While the Cap Ship Abilities might not have room but the Hangers have room for abilities. Two needed, one for launch and one for dock
aiUseTime "OnlyInCombat"
aiUseTime "NotInCombat"
Am I on the right track?
Me , I just 47 year old gamer. I couldnt code to save my life. I have trouble with xp still. lol
But love Sins, and now playing Requiem mod, having the time of my life.
Love to help with ideas to help prevent that 2 gig minidump.
I thought i was the resident "geezer" in this community. Glad to know there is at least one older than me here. I am 46 BTW
Yes MyFisto. It is possible to make an ability like that. I couldnt tell you how to do it myself, but i do know it is possible. You are on the right track with what you posted. The problem is that TSOP is not designed to change Vanilla Sins game play at all. It is only designed to limit how much resources, and ram the game uses. So you dont have to worry about the 2 gig crash bug, or very late game lag. Which we are working on finding more ways to remedy that problem. Without sacrificing game quality.
If you love Requiem then you will love SoA 2, and SOGE (shameless plugs)
We already reduced the tri's, and texture resolutions on the strike craft. The only other thing i can think of without altering the game balance itself is to reduce the number of strike craft in a squad. For example a squad of 5 fighters would be reduced to 3 fighters, but the fighter stats buffed to compensate for the loss of the 2 fighters.
I forgot to mention that TGA textures are not part of the equation in the game effects settings. They remain max resolution no matter if you set to low, medium, or max.
Thanks Major. I knew it would not go in top but thought I would respond.
I did try reducing the strike craft but do to every race having different amounts of SC its not that easy without a lot of recalculations and testing. If all races had say 5 per squad then easy as pie to reduce 1 from every race.
BTW 44 years young here.
Well I feel younger now (28)
BTW, I'm still waiting on that email of the master planets, textures and meshes.... Stress....
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