As many of you know, I play Vasari almost exclusively. Well, I was playing a game yesterday on Whirlwind with an Advent ally set to unfair with four enemies on hard and locked teams.
Good news: I have every pact with my advent ally.
Bad news: a TEC adversary is pounding away at me with Sova spams.
The choke point is a desert world protected by the best defenses I can put on it. Maxed out SB, turrets, hangars, repair bays, and the adjoining asteroid has a phase stabilizer. Unfortunately, my egg is elsewhere colonizing and my fleet is split because I am fighting a three front war against two enemies.
Because of that last item, the AI is able to practically steamroll me. I can't mount any offensive because of that. I am attempting to build my fleet because I finally reached the point at which I have unlocked the Vasari's late game arsenal, but whenever the AI attacks, my fleet gets shattered.
The only way I found to mitigate this is Skirantras. SB is now incredibly powerful and makes taking down capitals far easier. More importantly, RC is awesome. The point is, without them, I get slaughtered and the planet is bombed to oblivion.. With them, I take minor losses.
So, my point is that in this game, Skirantras are more or less the only thing keeping me alive. Without them, I get annihilated. Maybe it is because a good chunk of my FC is used on Envoys, but still, I almost feel obligated to use them. No longer is Scramble Bombers some worthless ability. Now it has a real effect on gameplay.
That part is good, but the problem is how critical it is now. This large amount of carriers makes countering them more difficult since it can throw more at me than I can return. I don't know if this AI's RNG just likes Sovas or if the Devs actually made it like them, but either way, it is significantly more difficult now than before. I'm fine with a difficulty buff. I am just wondering if the Skirantra should be the only thing able to stand up to Sova spams. Obviously it shouldn't, but the point remains... It is far more powerful than the others and as such is unbalanced. Do I think its OP? No. Do I think other caps should be buffed? Yes!
I am not going to quote the entire thread. People are welcome to read it for themselves if they so wish. Everyone there said you misrepresented the game in question. One of the main things being there being more than the sova there to kill your 2 skirantra(namely 6 cobalts and 2 lrms). The "testing" method you use is laughable seeing as how it was not really 1 cap against 2 alone and the person playing on the other side wasn't "testing" with you. You also started denying the game that was posted was really you, showed a screenshot that cropped out the cobalts and such to refute that another game was your game, which was quickly reposted by another player that was in the game with you but not against you directly but with the cobalts in frame and you cussing about 1 sova killing your skirantra. You said you were going to post your own replay but never did. People called bullshit even then. So yes I doubt your 1 marza against a skirantra and a starbase without a replay which you refuse to show because some "assholes" on the net might see what really happened.
[_]-Greyfox
Is there an echo in this thread or something?
What's the point of continueing this, honestly? Everyone already knows and has made an opinion, now you're just harrassing him.
Agent...I think someone may have hired greyfox as a hitman!.....on a forum...not very efficient...
Scramble Bombers:
lvl 1 launch 1 squad
lvl 2 launch 1 squad and reduce cooldown 20%
lvl 3 launch 2 squads
That'll dull it down a bit and still make it useful.
-Twilight Storm
I could really give a flying fuck what you doubt, fuckface.
But to anyone else reading this, I already said I would release the replay to DesConnor (he never asked for it though). I also said I would play test this with him online (he never accepted). He probably has better things to do with his time, and I don't blame him.
I have no obligation to release jack shit to anyone, but for the record I have offered to release things to people I trust and respect, and play test things with those people as well, even though I am under no obligation to do either.
Furthermore, a replay isn't needed. All someone has to do is start a 1v1 on point blank map, play against his self (you can do this by saving and reloading, and taking the other side), and play out the scenario I described. I see no reason why similar results should not be obtained.
One last thing. The sniveling, conniving little shit keeps lying about what is in my old thread, keeps getting busted on the lies, yet continues to lie even more about it. For instance, he states that I misrepresented that there were not enemy cobalts in the grav well. Is he just so stupid that he can't read what is written on the thread, or is he just that blatant of a liar? I STATED THAT THERE WERE ENEMY COBALTS IN THE GRAV WELL. IT'S WRITTEN BY ME IN BLACK AND WHITE.
What a worthless, lowlife, gutter-snipe.
greyfox, read your evidence before you use it!!!
Agent: Honestly, I'd ignore him. He keeps harrassing you like this and the moderetors get wind of it, he's likely to get banned. Don't play into it. You've broken his entire story(Not that there was much to break from what you've said from the thread itself) and now he's just repeating himself. Anyone who reads this now who has half a braincell will either ignore it or go back to the beginning here and read it from the start before they develop an opinion. Right now, he's alone, and I doubt that will change.
So, not thoughts on my SB nerf idea?
Good advice, thanks.
I am not the one wishing for the other's grisly death and tossing out obscenities left and right(other than bullshit). If anyone is harrassing, it is him. I made no threats about his life, he did. People can read for themselves if they so wish. I called out his lies and I am done.
Well, if he's chosen to ignore you, and you are done, then can we have a cease fire?
I didn't respond to him quoting me in hopes of that happening.
Volt Cruelerz, refering back to your original post, which are the caps you feel need a buff?
A lot has been written about Skirantras scramble bombers being OP. But it is much easier to counter than most think. Often I get away just making a single coloniser cap ship and still come out on top 90% of the time against a vasari using double skirantra spam. From my experience online, playing exclusively TEC, I found that the best way to deal with skirantras early game is to just spam LRF and FF the skirantras. No more skirantras on the field means no more scramble bombers.
I have two threads devoted to such things elsewhere.
I would have to wonder myself why it is so hard to counter if you are a human player (as the AI has the IQ of a toaster). Simply get a capital with an interrupt. They get dual Skirantras, you get an additional capital to wipe out AM. The best at this game are the Kortul and Radiance. After that happens, FF the Skirantras and they will pop.
So I would recommend if you are in range to be rushed, first get a Carrier (if Vasari or Advent as TEC should get the Akkan) and begin fighter construction. If a rush is confirmed, then build a Carrier (if TEC) or build the battleship (if Vasari or Advent). This way when the enemy arrives, they will already be low on AM and by using your capitals, you can reduce it and quickly gain air superiority. Once that happens, switch most squads to bombers and FF while Fighters take down frigates and bombers.
That is fine in theory to dimish the amount of spam. There is somewhat of an issue of vasari being cap killers to begin with phase missles on assailants and bombers both more so than tec or advent. Using this method assuming the vasari built 2 skirantra(which is most common), the skirantra can still get off 1 round at least of scramble. He can then often pick off at least 1 cap with bombers and assailants before you can return the favor. Just my opinion though since I have not attempted what you suggest.
Yeah, I have to agree with Greyfox to an extent. In order to successfully use interrupt abilities your Radiance or Kortol needs to be in range of a skirantra. The vasari player can just micro the skirantras round the well to avoid this, and pick off the Radiance or kortol with scramble bombers. For this reason it is still a risky strategy, though I have not tried it either.
Making lrf and FFing the skirantras is probably less risky and more cost-effective. Your opponent may try countering with fighters, but lasurak is too expensive and too slow to build in sufficent numbers.
The whole purpose of double skirantra spam is to essentially FF a cap ship with their scramble bombers. Your cap ship need not be in the same grav well if you're up against 2 skirantras. It can always jump in once either they are killed or they retreat due to heavy damage.
Hm if u make skirantas weaker again what will vasari have? The Vasari LOOKS OP but as soon as u nerf the carrier byebye vasari again... Vasari is described in the lore to have expensive, but advanced and high quality units... Does it? Vasari is a shitload more expensive than TEC for only 1 more DPS in pretty much all of its frigates and cruisers. i thought vasari was supposed to be the "few but elite race" ( my favorite kind of race so i admit a bias...) aand it doesnt seem like to be few but elite, just a little bit more expensive for a teeny bit more DPS.
No, the Vasari are the least cost effective units with a bunch of unique abilities faction, along with the most mobility. They do eventually become the most power faction in damage terms with fully upgrade phase missiles, along with numerous other cool toys that can give them benefits the other factions can only dream of, but they've got to survive long enough for them to get that far. I agree they have to be careful with how they nerf the Skirantra so that the Vasari can compete in the early game, but I don't think they were ever supposed to be the best in early game.
I dont know why I have just been called a Jerk, please enlighten me with your single player knowledge.
Ironically, Vasari were always the best early game faction before quick start. Their LRF is the lowest tier and thus the easiest to pump out early. It was always a struggle as advent that needs 3 labs for illums if the vasari was very close. It only shifted after quick start allowed for building 3 labs pretty quickly.
Essentially, the Vasari are most powerful late game, and everyone is fine with that; the problem is early game when they should not be unstoppable.
The trick is preventing the Vasari from being too easily beatable early game. If they survive to the late game, they will win (unless there is a catastrophic error in strategy), so it should be somewhat of a challenge, but it shouldn't be impossible.
In that way, I suggest buffing battleships as they have abilities that can counter SC (JW, FB, and Det AM as it prevents further usage of SB). Perhaps a slight direct nerfing would be in order, but not a total revert. I don't want to hear the argument that Repair Cloud is an awesome fleet healer. Its not. It heals the one ship being FF'd and all SC. That is where its power lies. The Skirantra is capable of keeping SC alive better than any other ship in the game. This makes a counter for bombers paramount.
I have suggested elsewhere that the damage against LRF at least and possibly bombers as well would be altered to increase the ease of which Flak kills them.
Another option is to reduce the health of these scrambled bombers. I believe that they are a separate unit in the gameinfo folder, so if this is the case, some health changes ought to aid in this.
@BlackHawk: I meant no offense by that statement, but in virtually every post I have seen by you, you have been insulting someone. The post to which I am now responding was no different:
I have not made any attempt to hide the fact that I don't play online, nor that I am not the most knowledgeable player out there. I am however decent. I can beat unfairs with little to no difficulty (haven't tried playing against the higher diplo difficulties yet as I haven't had time). I'm sure that in response, you will say that any MP player can beat an Unfair in his sleep. Regardless, I have not played against actual humans and therefore this level of experience is not to be expected. When I develop a theory, I will if my schedule allows, play against myself to test it, and the proceed to ask MP players to validate my results.
It is for posts like this that I feel that you have a feeling of contempt for far too many players of the community. Your apparent arrogance does not line up with the intelligence I have seen in your posts and it certainly does not line up with respectful comments or any positive comment for that matter about you that I have heard.
I do not wish to start a flame war as we just finished a skirmish, but it is for those reasons that I said that I am pretty much convinced that you are just a jerk. I would love to be proven wrong, but I have just not seen you show much respect for other members of the community. Once again, I do not wish to start a flame war, and I feel no amount of animosity towards you, but you do not have my respect due to the extreme negativity I have seen in your posts. Please understand this. I am not trying to spark an argument, but I did want to answer your question in hopes that it could lead to a peaceful discussion. I want peace in this thread, and when you have four forum members (Grey, Agent, yourself, and myself) that have strong egos and do not agree, sparks may fly.
I really do not mean any disrespect towards you if it was perceived, but I do wish you to know that I do not hold you in very high esteem given your past posts and I believe the community feels in a similar way. I really don't know what to do at this point, which is probably why I keep repeating myself, but alas, its late and this post needs to come to an end.
@BlackHawk: I meant no offense by that statement, but in virtually every post I have seen by you, you have been insulting someone. The post to which I am now responding was no different:please enlighten me with your single player knowledge.I have not made any attempt to hide the fact that I don't play online, nor that I am not the most knowledgeable player out there. I am however decent. I can beat unfairs with little to no difficulty (haven't tried playing against the higher diplo difficulties yet as I haven't had time). I'm sure that in response, you will say that any MP player can beat an Unfair in his sleep. Regardless, I have not played against actual humans and therefore this level of experience is not to be expected. When I develop a theory, I will if my schedule allows, play against myself to test it, and the proceed to ask MP players to validate my results.It is for posts like this that I feel that you have a feeling of contempt for far too many players of the community. Your apparent arrogance does not line up with the intelligence I have seen in your posts and it certainly does not line up with respectful comments or any positive comment for that matter about you that I have heard.I do not wish to start a flame war as we just finished a skirmish, but it is for those reasons that I said that I am pretty much convinced that you are just a jerk. I would love to be proven wrong, but I have just not seen you show much respect for other members of the community. Once again, I do not wish to start a flame war, and I feel no amount of animosity towards you, but you do not have my respect due to the extreme negativity I have seen in your posts. Please understand this. I am not trying to spark an argument, but I did want to answer your question in hopes that it could lead to a peaceful discussion. I want peace in this thread, and when you have four forum members (Grey, Agent, yourself, and myself) that have strong egos and do not agree, sparks may fly. I really do not mean any disrespect towards you if it was perceived, but I do wish you to know that I do not hold you in very high esteem given your past posts and I believe the community feels in a similar way. I really don't know what to do at this point, which is probably why I keep repeating myself, but alas, its late and this post needs to come to an end.
I show a lot of respect however, when people try to change the games mechanics, its hard for me to sit back and let them do it. The fact is Volt, I did not offend you any shape or form until you called me a Jerk. I stand for the multiplayer commuinty, not the single player community, becuase the changes the developers make does not only affect the single player community, but affects the whole mulitplayer experiance too.
My posts are mostly aimed at people who either (A). who decided to change the balancing of the games units to suite there own desired race and (. people who spread senseless and unimportant issues regarding this game.
Agent Kharma and me have had a little history between us on the forums (two massive ego's in one room) , but the way i said this:
was a nice, and polite way of saying my love for him . Many people disagree with Agent Kharmas posts and idealogy, but I do not keep grudges, but if people keep saying the same thing over and over again, its does start to get annoying.
The reason I said to you 'your single player knowledge' was because that is the only form of the game you know, and as I know both sides of the game, (mulitplayer and single player), I know how unbalanced this game is, whereas you do not. People take advanatge of spamming 3 Skintra carrier capital ships, with 30 bombers at the start of the game, and this is causing major imbalances, where now, as with the previous patch, and illum spammer would be stopped with an starbase on the guys homeworld, but with the skintra spam, there is no where to hide.
Volt you do not gain respect, you earn it, I have earnt mine from most of the multiplayer community, excpet for a few indivudals disagreeing with Smurfing, and still an ongoing battle.
Before you start insulting people next time, think and read other posts before you say it. I think the Multiplayer community know more about what Capital ships need or do not need rebuffing then the single player community, please by all means show me what capital ships need rebuffing, and which do not, and ill happily agree or disagree with you, but until you show me some substance to your arguments, I will carry on disagreing with you.
[_]-BlackHawk
Has Returned
I have always been a believer in that multiplayer brings out all of the flaws in the system. If there is something OP in the slightest, you will see it abused to the maximum extent possible in multiplayer. I am not saying that single player opinions are invalid by any stretch but the computer is difficult to test with. It doesn't fluidly change to the flavor of the patch like a human does or exploit any newfound strength or weakness but rather sticks to the same predictably routine.
@Blackhawk: I am not discounting that the MP community is what magnifies flaws. Just as Greyfox said, things do get amplified because you have a bunch of people who are bound and determined to win.
I am one of the most active members on this forum, and have been so for quite some time. For that reason, I have a pretty good understanding of what most of the MP community desires. As I have said before, I work conceptually with ideas. I come up with a theory and ask for validation by people who could test it. What is wrong with this? I'm not saying that I am the best, but between reading many many posts and hunting through the code for mod making, I have a pretty good understanding of this game's mechanics. I probably wouldn't react fast enough to defeat a skilled human player in an RTS, but if I was actually concerned with it, I could probably devise a strategy to counter something that someone else can use.
I don't paint with a 1mm brush. I am more of an airbrush user. I tend to create an idea and let the figuring out of details go to others. Broad strokes are my preferred way of doing things. I will refine them though if there is evidence that I am in the right direction. The best example of this was my devising a counter to Halo spam a couple patches ago. I don't play online, but I was still able to look through potential solutions and found one that worked.
I know I don't have the knowledge of what all goes on during MP games, but I do tend to at least know what I am talking about. I do think about what I say before I say it. Still an all, I will be wrong at times, and I have no qualms with being corrected assuming that it is done in a respectful way. The post to which I am now responding is honestly the first reasonable post by you I have read. All others I have seen are not so peacefully minded. So, I did actually read posts and think about what I was saying. I really have not seen other posts by you that I can recall that are so. My apologies since you insist that there are and I did not see them, but that is simply what I saw (or rather did not).
In regards to which capitals deserve to be buffed, I think most of them are on that list. I don't want a full revert of SB by the way, but all the same, the only things I really want rebuffed are the Egg and the Progenitor, and for the following reasons:
1. The Eggs colonize has no real benefit. It reduces construction time by 20% which is virtually nothing whereas its other two abilities are great. I want it to either significantly increase build times or perform some other function.
2. The Progenitor, while at first glance is a very powerful ship, I think that Malice is lackluster. Once upon a time when the Advent ruled all, Malice had no target cap and could propagate 70% of damage, allowing an entire fleet to quickly succumb to late game fire. Simply combine a few Motherships with a ton of Aerias and you could use critical mass Bombers to destroy most of a fleet in one pass. Of course, I am not suggesting that this nerf be fully reverted, but I want Malice to have a bit more power than it does now. I would say to double the target cap and increase damage propagation to 20%/35%/50%. That is all. I don't want the ability to be unstoppable, just to have a little more impact.
Also, I would like to say that there are indeed capitals that need buffs more than the two of those such as the Radiance and Kol, but this is discussed more thoroughly in my dedicated thread to such things.
As one last request before I press the reply button, please explain to be the actual strategic issue with facing Skirantra spam. As I myself have not been the victim of such a rush, please explain what series of events causes the receiver of such a thing to hit the Surrender button.
With skirantra spam, you can get silly amounts of bombers and are able to heal those bombers. This makes quick work of any opposing caps even the halcyon with push and fighters. You simply cannot kill the bombers quickly enough to matter with early game fleet. Combine that with an enemy that quickly puts out flak if any number of fighters come out and assailants to snipe caps too. Cap counters are killed very quickly. Carrier cruisers are nullified with a handful of flak and pretty easily killed with bomber spam as well. You basically have to keep your caps out of the fight unless you want them dead. You can't SB for the same reason to defend but they can. You are left with trying to snipe a cap yourself with lrf or LF if no assailants. Plus having 2 or more caps makes quick work of anything short of a HW.
Like any other type of cap ship spam, your best 'counter' early on is to mass lrf.
Assassin X
To add to this discussion, please see my recent analysis of Scramble Bombers, old and new, at the Cap Ship Ability sticky.
The following is a side by side comparion of the maximum number of squads available to each of the Carrier Caps at key levels. Be mindfull that this assumes that the Skirantra has enough antimatter to continuosly cast Scramble Bombers. Whereas the Halcyon is guaranteed a squad (of choice - not just bombers), providing that the aura Adept Drone Anima is chosen as soon as it is available (at levels 1, 3, and 5). It also assumes that Anima Tempest will be continuously activated at level 6, giving an effective 3.125 additional squads. Although the TEC Sova can't obtain additional squads, it can deploy up to 4 progressively more lethal turrets (Missile Batteries) at each of these 3 levels.
...# of SQUADS..................New.............Old............TEC.....Advent.......Vasari........Vasari...........Sova...Halcyon....Skirantra.....SkirantraLevel 1....3.........4.............6.43..............6Level 3....4.........6............10.86.............8Level 5....5.........8............15.29............11Level 6....6........12.125.....16.29............12Level 8....7........13.125.....17.29............13Level10...8........14.125.....18.29............14
Its getting ridiculous. Noobs building nothing but Skirantra, no frigates! And Pros rushing with 2 or 3 Skirantra and/or maybe a Star Base, and winning.
Last night I played a game against two guys, and killed 12 Skirantra! While I was killing 1, they were building another. The thing was, they were using them wrong. They were picking Repair Cloud first, or even Microphasing Aura first!
I'm sorry, but I reject your notions that Skirantra are OP. Just deal with the extra bombers by bringing extra counters to them.
As for the spammage? Welcome to the internet. People fuckin' LOVE the bandwagon on the internet. This will continue until people realize a ton of some other unit is fun.
Just be glad you don't have 12 vasari siege caps spamming phase missile swarm in volleys at you. Or doubling up the beam weapon they get - that shit rapes SB/Caps when you have like 2-3 going on a target at a time.
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