As many of you know, I play Vasari almost exclusively. Well, I was playing a game yesterday on Whirlwind with an Advent ally set to unfair with four enemies on hard and locked teams.
Good news: I have every pact with my advent ally.
Bad news: a TEC adversary is pounding away at me with Sova spams.
The choke point is a desert world protected by the best defenses I can put on it. Maxed out SB, turrets, hangars, repair bays, and the adjoining asteroid has a phase stabilizer. Unfortunately, my egg is elsewhere colonizing and my fleet is split because I am fighting a three front war against two enemies.
Because of that last item, the AI is able to practically steamroll me. I can't mount any offensive because of that. I am attempting to build my fleet because I finally reached the point at which I have unlocked the Vasari's late game arsenal, but whenever the AI attacks, my fleet gets shattered.
The only way I found to mitigate this is Skirantras. SB is now incredibly powerful and makes taking down capitals far easier. More importantly, RC is awesome. The point is, without them, I get slaughtered and the planet is bombed to oblivion.. With them, I take minor losses.
So, my point is that in this game, Skirantras are more or less the only thing keeping me alive. Without them, I get annihilated. Maybe it is because a good chunk of my FC is used on Envoys, but still, I almost feel obligated to use them. No longer is Scramble Bombers some worthless ability. Now it has a real effect on gameplay.
That part is good, but the problem is how critical it is now. This large amount of carriers makes countering them more difficult since it can throw more at me than I can return. I don't know if this AI's RNG just likes Sovas or if the Devs actually made it like them, but either way, it is significantly more difficult now than before. I'm fine with a difficulty buff. I am just wondering if the Skirantra should be the only thing able to stand up to Sova spams. Obviously it shouldn't, but the point remains... It is far more powerful than the others and as such is unbalanced. Do I think its OP? No. Do I think other caps should be buffed? Yes!
I'm not sure if this is the best place to be putting stat change requests. Now if you wanted to know how to counter Sova spams that would work, but you already answered that question, you are just not happy about it.
Yeah... i guess as I wrote it I kinda strayed from what I originally intended...
-VOID THREAD-
go play online and see that most vasaru players just build 2 or 3 skirantras and its dificult to stop if u are not vasari urself and go rock v rock.
point is the skirantra is OP and needs atleast a slight nerf. (mainly the scramble bomber ability needs nerfed)
^Just preventing the extra strikecraft from jumping with the carrier could be good enough in my opinion. Not only does it not make any sense (if they can hold that many strikecraft, why not always have 9 extra bomber squadrons...), but it could go a long way in reducing the initial wave of bombers as well as making retreating a legitamite option.
6 skirantras will evuantualy equal 75 bomber spaudrons (ive done it)
and u cant kill them because their constantly being relaunched at 100% (scamble bombers)
u cant beat that using even twice the resources/fleet cap that the skriantras take up
what i beleave would fix it is an increase to the cooldown for scramble bombers. and the cooldown should increase with each higher level of the ability
SB should be rebalanced at 1 squadron at each level, with reduced cooldown at lvls 2 and 3.
SB should be better than it was last patch, and worse than it is now. Some middle ground.
Some people say revert it back entirely, but this would just make the Halcyon OP again, and the Skirantra the red-headed stepchild who can't keep up. The Skirantra of last patch did not have the destructive potential of either the Halcyon or the Sova.
Again, a nerf from where it is now, but a buff from what it was last patch.
deleted.
I hope not. As a modder I loved the new parameter that allows you to spawn multiple squadrons at once. Before we had to make several linked buffs filled with nothing but "SpawnSquadron" over and over and over. Surely just increasing antimatter costs or cooldown time can do the same effect (as what you are proposing is exactly what it was before, and it sucked).
only cooldown needs changed
just a slight change at first
big major changes and multiple changes at once is how we get OP ships/abilities like this. keep it simple
At the rate which fighters can destroy bombers, the Skirantra are not OP.
Not to mention flakk burst, telekinetic push, etc... or the fact that TEC/Advent can deplete anti-matter reserves with abilities really fast (Vasari can too, but it's a bit slower and more sporadic).
Having a bazillion bomber squads is nothing you can't accomplish with every race. Scramble Bombers is IMO fairly in line with Rapid Manufacturing - the Sova can bust out replacement squadrons ASAP.... not to mention it affects the entire gravwell - hangar bays and frigate factories. The Halcyon? Same deal, it can pull more squadrons outta it's butt and buffs them to boot.
If anything, I think that the fact that Skirantras are so central now is a sign of a serious design flaw in the Vasari capabilities. They are massively under par in respects to strike craft. Vasari repair rates are dismal. We have reintegration, yes (on two ships), but it has to be micro'd (the auto cast is a joke), and when we use it - the ship is as good as dead for 30 seconds while it sits there uselessly (they can't move/fire). Other than that? Overseers are overpriced and about two tiers higher than they should be. That leaves us with the Skirantra - Repair Cloud. It's a large AOE, which is nice, but the rate is fairly mediocre (which is acceptable by late game, but if overseers came earlier it would be solid early on, too).
So we're already taking a Skirantra just for RC, sometimes two in a large fleet. Now it's a fact that most Vasari players will never see the number of squadrons a TEC/Advent player pumps out, the Vasari Light Carriers just simply are not cost/supply effective when you take in the rest of the fleet composition into account. This means most Vasari players are left weak in the SC department. Now we were given Scramble Bombers - which greatly helps level the playing field. Now we can take our pitiful number of squadrons and make them Fighters so that our fleets are adequately defended - AND we can have enough bombers that we actually notice an effect.
The result? We make damned sure we take two Skirantra, if not three or four - so that we can keep up with the Strike Craft problem and have a bit of redundancy (hopefully) in the Repair arena when the anti-AM and CC abilities start flying like fur from a catfight. All Scramble Bombers does is make it so that Vasari can enjoy the fruits of Strike Craft too without gimping themselves in the process. Fair fights are a bitch, aren't they?
In the meanwhile, until the collective whine gets the Skirantra unduely nerfed, just employ your usual anti-strike craft measures that you use against the TEC/Advent against the Vasari as well. That's really all it takes.
If you're really looking to see the Skirantra "balanced" instead of nerfed - then call for reduction of tier for Overseers and increasing the cost/supply effectiveness of the Vasari Light Carriers before you have Scramble Bombers nerfed.
Or join me in bitching about the now pathetically meek Marauder. Talk about a waste of a capship... it's useless in Entrenchment/Diplomacy.
-Itharus
lol ithas u dont even know what you are talking about
It made sense to me when I read it...Scramble Bombers, is meant to bring Skirantra in line with Sova and Halcyon, and to give the Vasari th option of fielding strikecraft that is taken away by their highly expensive Light Carriers. (Resources and Fleet cost)
-Twilight Storm
Try to keep up with my incoherent babbling, will ya? There's always something meaningful in there after you translate it!
fighters killing bombers is completely irrelevent when dealing with a high level skirantra currently
it relaucnhes 3 squads at 100% without much time inbetween. 6 skirantras will eventualy equal 75+ bombers (ive done it/ seen it lots of times). to counter that you would need roughly 30 carrier cruisers lol. and dont forget fighters have about the shortest survival rate of any combat ship due to how fast flak kills them
Halcyons do nothing to buff squads other than simply being able to carry/build more squads. Their passive dps aura does not affect strike craft(you need a rapture for that). They are good for push but scramble bombers can overwhelm them even with all fighters and tele push. Not to mention vasari are gonna build assailants too so that they can kill the aforementioned halcyon/halcyons before they can even think about thinning the bomber spam. You are lucky to get 2 pushes before it either dies or you retreat.
You gotta be fricking kidding me. First of all, vasari SC are on par if not better than other races for a couple reasons. Vasari SC do the most damage per ship and have the most HP while the other 2 races can have more ships per squad and less damage and hp with advent having the most ships per squad and the least hp and damage with them all being about even in total hp and damage per squad. So what, you say? This translates into the vasari SC being harder to kill. It takes 2+ tele pushes to kill a squad at level 1 or 2 telepush. The vasari SC in question are not sitting idle during this time. They continue to be rebuilt/repaired and are doing damage. They can also be REPAIRED with skirantra AE heal. What you call a mediocre heal is absolutely fricking huge for SC. On top of that you get fresh 100% health squadrons with scramble bombers. I am not even gonna touch the overseer comment because it is totally wrong and besides the point. Overseers are perfectly fine.
Vasari are the same in their regards of putting out SC outside of skirantra. TEC and vasari carrier cruisers are of comparable cost and power. Advent get 1 more squad per carrier but take more cost and supply making them about even. The fact that I even have to mention this makes me think that you do not know what the hell you are talking about. Fair fights are quite fun but I am guessing being a vasari player you haven't had one this patch without playing another vasari.
[_]-Greyfox
Greyfox:
1.) I wasn't aware that the beam enhancement from the Halcyon didn't apply to the Advent Bombers, sorry.
2.) I never said anything about the quality of Vasari strike craft, only the quantity of squadrons. Which also is less related to the Light Carrier than it is more related to fleet composition. Vasari fleets don't have "room" for adequate Strike Craft unless you've built a fleet that's specialized for it. "Balanced" fleets are very mandatory for the Vasari in my experience... without all/most the pieces in place, Vasari fleets are very lack-lustre... and that synergy is mostly in their frigates/cruisers, not their capships (although the Skirantra is changing this). What this results in, is (in fleets not specialized to be SC powerhouses) the Vasari fleet having quite a few less squadrons than their opponents, to the point where it can/will bite you in the ass fairly often. Having Scramble bombers lets you focus on Fighter production in your light carriers (so that you can have adequate bomber defense) while still maintaining enough bombers to be worth while (although you'll still have to have some LC w/ bombers for that unless you DID build 4+ Skirantra).
3.) My remarks about the Overseer aren't about capability, they are about availability. I was arguing for a reduction of tier. As for the overpriced comment, I don't really know what I was thinking when I typed that, it probably got confused in my head when I was thinking about it being improperly tiered (it's really harsh having to wait til mid-late game to get a repair ability outside of a capital ship).
4.) Lastly, in any faction, having 6 maxed out super-carrier capships will result in a retarded amount of strikecraft. I really don't see how it's any different from the Halcyon or Sova. The simple fact is the bombers from either group will fly past the other and probably kill a capship or two before enough of them are taken out to slow down the cap-popping. Have you or anyone you know tried putting 6 of either super-carrier in a group at level 10 and fighting the same of Skirantra?
5.) If you think that Fighters are taken out too quickly by flakk, argue for that change before trying to nerf the Skirantra (IMO). If your fighters survive longer they may well counter the bombers better/faster and resolve the issue w/o nerfing the Skirantra.
If anything were changed about the Skirantra right now, all that it could take (IMO) w/o being heavily nerfed (to an insulting level) is another 5-15 seconds of cooldown on Scramble Bombers, that's it.
Vasari can put out more squads of bombers with the same amount of carrier caps than any other race can field any type of squad because of scramble bombers. Carrier cruisers carry 2 squads for vasari and TEC and advent carry 3(at higher supply and cost). Vasari are certainly not hurting for strike craft quantity or quality. If you are hurting for lack of SC then thats a matter of how you play rather than blaming either skirantra or vasari carrier cruisers. Fighters are incapable of getting rid of the bombers quickly enough unless one goes for carrier caps and carrier cruisers too which will promptly bring out flak from vasari if it isnt already. Plus the bomber spam will quickly pop any halcyon or sova before it has much of a chance to thin out the bombers along with a few assailants. Both of which have phase missles to skip shields. Flak is laughable against bombers. If you think overseers suck(which they don't), then you should try a domina sometime.
The skirantra is currently OP. It was a good cap ship even before carrier caps were buffed and certainly before scramble bombers was buffed twice. Carrier caps are OP period but skirantra is the worst of the lot at present. Fighters ARE too quickly killed by flak or bombers not killed quickly enough with flak. I have never said otherwise. That doesn't change the fact that skirantra is OP. It is possible to spam entirely too many bombers at present with it. Having 30+ bombers from 2 or 3 ships is absurd.
Why is it useful to balance Scramble Bombers against Anima Tempest and Rapid Manufacturing, when they are ultimate abilities? Even if you did compare Scramble Bombers against Anima Tempest its 50 AM 35 cooldown 3 squads 120s lifetime versus 150AM 180 cooldown 7-8 squads 75s lifetime.. this makes the top level of Scramble in the current version slightly less than twice as good as the Halcyon's ultimate? To alter this would be insulting?
The Vasari strikecraft repair ability can hardly be less effective than that of the other factions.... The poorer Vasari players seem not to use it though. It makes Vasari strikecraft a little more effective against flak. They have the best dps and the bombers have phase missiles, an upgrade which also enhances their tier one long range frigate.. If you take the upgraded dps into account then Scramble Bombers might be twice as good as Anima Tempest in this version.. To complain about Flak Burst must be a joke, as the Skirantra is an overwhelming counter to it..
What I object to most is the entire theory that Vasari have to be superior in strikecraft and have the best carrier capital. How would you apply this to starbases then..? Vasari pay nothing or almost nothing for their starbase constructor, while the other factions have vulnerable constructors that are extremely expensive. Plus Vasari starbases build quickest and can deploy anywhere in a gravwell, while the vulnerable and expensive starbase constructors have to move into position. Vasari starbases are lower tier. They can carry strikecraft too...
So have Vasari already got the best starbases then, or would you feel insulted if they weren't buffed? The colony pods might use improving, and that would even be a sensible adjustment. The buff to Scramble Bombers wasn't, it was a buff for poor play. Revert it all.
The skirantra without scramble bombers is weak. Period. This was apparent before the buff. It is still apparent now.
I just finished a test game. Went skirantra, but purposefully no scramble bombers. The strat was to use the skirantra to support an early starbase rush, so the skirantra was configured for all fighters to counter any enemy bombers which would counter the starbase, and repair cloud to repair the starbase.
Starbase hit the enemy homeworld and started building. A level1 marza with radiation bomb appeared shortly after and attacked the SB while it was building. When my starbase finished building it had less than 1000 hull points left, and no shields. I instantly started upgrading hull. Also, my skirantra arrived about this time. I brought the skirantra over near the starbase in order to support and heal it. My fighters first targeted and killed the two builders before then attacking the marza.
I had to upgrade the hull on the starbase 2 more times, back to back, just to keep it alive. This was in addition to heals from the much-hyped repair cloud. Also, at some point, I switched the fighters over to bombers, since I didn't see any bombers being deployed. The bottom line is, the skirantra died while sitting there supporting the SB, the SB was still weak after 3 hull upgrades (I want to say around 1000 hull or so), and the marza was still healthy and in range firing away at the SB. At this point, I had seen all that I wanted to see from the test game, so that was the end of it. The marza never had support of any kind - no repair, no escorting fleet, no strikecraft, no nothing. Just a level 1 marza with radiation bomb.
Please, no insults about my letting a skirantra die while supporting it's starbase - WHAT PART ABOUT "TEST GAME" DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?
Without scramble bombers, the skirantra is a weak ship. Now, if scramble bombers has been overbuffed, fix it, but don't revert it entirely. Somewhere between what it was before, and what it is now, might be okay.
Des is welcome to test out some scenarios with me regarding skirantra. We've played a few test matches - he knows how to contact me.
EDIT: The above scenario may be even worse against a sova, which will lay down missle turrets and have bombers. What would a skirantra do? Now, I'm not suggesting that a starbase rush by vasari automatically succeed. But I am suggesting that if the starbase finishes building and is then supported by a fresh skirantra, the skirantra plus the starbase together should be able to beat a lone capship from another race.
6 lvl6 skirantras = 75+ bombers
6 lvl6 sovas AND 6 lvl6 halycons wont match that lol
Six Halcyons? You wouldn't even be able to use strike craft with that much TK push going on
In all seriousness, if you get that far in the game you should have a LRF, HC, or bomber swarm that just vapourizes caps on contact. The Skirantras won't even last long enough to scramble everything.
Agent, seeing as how you lost 2 skirantras to a single sova by playing stupidly(IE letting them beat on you with missle platforms when you could have moved out of the way) you have lost all credibility to me in your "tests". Skirantra was a good cap even before the buffs and I frequently saw them used with success even then.
I don't want any credibility with you.
agent thinks he is some 'great player' lol
and if u dont think that 75 bomber squads will effect a battle then u must be on crack
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