Note: This became a lot longer than I had originally intended. Wall of Text incoming: you've been warned.It seems to me lately that Developers aren't happy with the fans of their established series, so much so that they want someone else's fans and badly. Who's fans are they after? Well, to be honest, I haven't quite figured that one out yet, and I don't think that the Developers have either. However, in attempting to gain new fans, they more often than not seem to be losing fans by changing their series to better appeal to a different demographic of gamers. This trend isn't new, however its becoming systemic and the rule, rather than the exception. What do we, the gamers, think about this? Is it good that Developers are trying new things, trying to bring more people 'to the fold'? Or, is it spitting in the face of fans?As some of the more console friendly gamers here might know, Final Fantasy XIII was recently released on the Playstation 3 and Xbox 360. This marks the first time a Final Fantasy has appeared on a Microsoft console, and the first entry in the main cannon since XII, which was frankly despised by long time series fans yet hailed by critics. The key feature of any Final Fantasy entry has always been its epic plot, however XII's plot was almost universally labelled as boring and uninvolved. It also made serious changes to the long-established Japanese-RPG Turn Based Battle System by introducing a programmable series of "If/then" statements to automate your party's members in battle and allowed the player to only directly control the main character, who could also be automated if desired. This resulted in what has been labelled the worst entry in the series. This was thought to be a rare mistep from the beloved franchise, however XIII's reception has revealed that its repeated nearly all of the misteps from XII, and added a few new ones. Long time fans believe this is Square-Enix attempting to make the series more accessible in a bid to lure in non-RPG fans to the series, as the new battle system in XIII has been compared to a cross between God of War and the Turn Based systems of old, while the game is being universally agreed upon as one of the most linear games ever made, and one that appears to try to remove any confusion about where a player might need to go next in the story. One comment which has stuck out to me was when a series fan said XIII was like a Michael Bay movie: turn your brain off to enjoy a dumb and flashy piece of entertainment. Considering that Final Fantasy games survive or die on their indepth and, often, long winded plots, this seems counter-productive to what long time fans would want, at least to me.Anyway, I've mentioned Final Fantasy so extensively for a single reason: Final Fantasy is simply one of the biggest names in gaming. Each entry in the series goes on to sell millions upon millions of copies, often debuting at number one in appropriate sales charts. As Final Fantasy is the most successful JRPG series of all time, and a contender for the most popular RPG series ever made, why have the Developers felt the need to make changes designed to 'expand the appeal' or make the game more 'accessible'? Wasn't it successful enough already? Considering most smaller JRPG's aspire to be Final Fantasy, often to their detriment, who is Final Fantasy trying to be, and why?Another note-worthy release recently has been Supreme Commander 2. The original Supreme Commander was a hardcore RTS by design and made no apologies about it. It was a Real Time Strategy game with the focus on large scale conflicts to ensure players focused on the bigger picture rather than the moment-to-moment battles that other RTS games like C&C and Starcraft focus on. The sequel, however, has changed the design to ensure maximum accessibility, most note worthy in its economy, base building, unit segmentation and automation features. Supreme Commander alienated the mass-RTS-Starcraft loving crowd with its more cerebral brand of strategy, however this was clearly the developer's intention. It was successful enough within its own right, earned a stand-alone expansion pack, and is still played today with an active multiplayer community. The sequel appears to have in turn alienated the fans of the original in a bid to lure in the mass-RTS-Starcraft loving crowd that the original saught to exclude. Was this the right way to go?I, personally, can understand the want of a Developer for their game(s) to succeed, both on an artistic and financial level. I can also understand the idea of improvement and change in a sequel - fans want bigger and better the second time around, or in Final Fantasy's case, the thirteenth time around, and Developers probably want to try new things. None of this is something new and strange and shouldn't come as a suprise to anyone with an understanding of the games industry as a whole. Developers have a successful game, clearly the fans want another because they enjoyed the first one so much and so they make another game and improve upon it, adding in new bits and pieces and take out stuff that didn't work or wasn't favoured. Makes perfect sense. The problem I've mentioned above seems to arise when Developers either change too much, or try and appeal to new markets or more people.Now, change isn't a bad thing. Resident Evil is one of my personal favourite series, yet after the three original games on the Playstation One the series was in serious danger of stagnating and dying off. Then comes along Resident Evil 4. Before it was released, I was a neigh-sayer.: a focus on swarms of Zombies instead of each one posing a massive threat? Change to over-the-shoulder gunplay? I was ready to burn Capcom to the ground for destroying my beloved Resident Evil! Then, I played it. Resident Evil 4 now stands as one of my personal favourite games of all time, and is my favourite entry in the series. They changed so much and yet clearly knew what they needed above anything else to remain true to their fans: feeling, and they nailed it. When Resident Evil 5 came along, I was excited as all hell to see what they would do with 4's way of playing on today's hardware. Then, I played it. Resident Evil 5 is, in my opinion, one of the worst games ever made. It plays very similar to 4, however by focusing on multiplayer - and forcing an incompotent A.I. partner to destroy the single player game if you don't play multiplayer - they destroyed the most important aspect: feeling. This, to me, is the main area that Developers fail to recognise when re-designing their series for the next instalment.Re-invention can be a good thing, as previous reinventions have shown, however it must be done with care and grace and perserve the feeling invoked by the series. When Developers create a sequel to a game, they do so to use the name of the previous instalments. Final Fantasy's numerous entries have little to no connection beyond a few running themes or cameo characters - the name Final Fantasy, however, means a lot. It's not the continuing adventures of one character or another, but rather the continuation of the design principles of the previous entries - when I say Final Fantasy, people know exactly the kind of game I'm talking about. This is what was changed in the unpopullar entires, and this is why they lost the feeling of the classics - and pissed of their fan base in turn. Supreme Commander 2 is the same - it changed the 'how' of the game without capturing the feeling of the previous 'SupCom' games by trying to make 'SupCom 2' something it clearly wasn't.Trying new things is the way our industry moves forward, and all Developers should try new things. However, when doing new things with beloved entries, such as the case with the games I've mentioned, I feel Developers need to appease their established fan base first. Why? Without their fans, they simply wouldn't be in business to create the sequel, and a little love goes a long way. The way to show that love isn't with flashy graphics, radically re-designing the game or adding features that no one asked for (side note: seriously, who thought multiplayer is what survival horror needed to stay fresh?) or things that alienate established fans. Its a fine line to walk - however Developers long ago discovered the escape goat for this; the sub-title. Calling an entry in an established series something else affords you both the use of its established name and room enough to go crazy with new features. Final Fantasy: Tactics, Civilization: Revolution, Starcraft: Ghost (cancelled, but the idea is the same). I'd rather a hundred spin-off titles I can ignore (Resident Evil: Survivor, anyone?) than a numbered entry in the cannon that is a blemish that will remain, and possibly cost the Developer dearly enough that a redeeming entry isn't financially viable.Maybe I'm just a fanboy, who wants more of the same. I don't think I am, but it's difficult to have an opinion on one's own opinion - so, what does everyone else think? Should Developers be a little more careful with our favourite franchises? Do they owe us, their fans, anything at all to warrant such care? Or should Developers be free to go crazy with their series and add or take features as they see fit, radically changing things to achieve better financial success or bring in new fans or do anything that pops into their heads - they are their series after all, are they not?
This thought was running through my head when playing SupCom2. I'm disapointed at this game because I want SupCom 2 to be *THIS* and they gave me *THAT*. Its also unlikely they will go 'backwards' to recapture the original, especially if 2 sells well, so its like Total Annihilation and Supreme Commander have died a death for me.
If they called it SupCom: Starcraft Clone I probably still would have bought it, but I would still know they could actually make SupCom 2.
(And remember I dislike several things from SupCom and like several things from SC2 - its like you say the 'feeling', or general design that has been removed and replaced with something else that just dons't fit the game).
Subtitles is how you solve all problems.
Deus Ex: Invisable War - I felt a lot better about this game after I realised there is no '2' in the title.
Fallout: Tactics - (actually a good game but nothing to do with the RPG style games)
Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising - Literally one of the worst games ever if you contrast it to the hype, lol. But due to a halrious challange from the REAL developers of the original game they forced Codemashers to drop the '2'. For all thoes that don't know Arma and Arma II are the real follow ups to the amazing Operation Flashpoint: Cold War Crisis.
Bladurs Gate: Dark Alliance - Playstayion hack and slash - not a BG game in the slightest, didn't matter a jot because of the title.
Command and Conquer: Generals - Yeah EA put C&C on this to sell more copies. NP its a great game and it dosn't infrindge on the C&C world (pity the later C&C games arn't as good as this game).
Descent: Freespace - Interplay slapped their brand Descent on this game to get past the trademark "Freespace". The incredible sequel Freespace 2 had no such problems.
Diablo 3 - YOU DID WHAT TO THE COLOUR PALLET?!? YOU MORONS! DARK AND DEPRESSING IS WHAT DIABLO MEANS!
Okay so that last one was a joke. Sort of.
Descent: Freespace has absolutely nothing at all to do with Descent, aside from sharing a developer (Volition). Therefore it is ineligible to be on the list of "games that were subtitled so they aren't proper sequels", especially because Descent actually got a pair of proper sequels. And Descent: Freespace was actually known as Conflict: Freespace in Europe, so that is another strike against its inclusion on your list.
I was just going down a few games on my shelf. Its not 100% the same but the point is people didn't like the name because of the descent connection but the second one shed it proving it could stand on its own without technicalitys or help - unlike it seems half of these spin offs that would sink faster than a magnet in a minefield.
Freespace is in no way a spinoff of Descent. Having played both Descent and Freespace 1 and 2, I believe that should be obvious to anyone who has played both Descent and Freespace. And Volition slapped the "Descent" title on it because a different program at the time (a hard drive tool I believe) used the name "Freespace".
Well put position. I bought the stand alone expansion to SupCom on a whim and it's since become my favorite game, closely followed by Sins. As a huge fan of the so called, "epic" class of rts; I was extremely dissapointed in the oversimplification you described. I don't know where the idea came from to completely scale down the game, nor do I care to find out. It just feels like they stripped away 75% of the units, made no advancements graphically, and threw in a story that is completely forgettable. I hate to slam someones hard work but I completely agree that they opted to abandone their core demographic for more widespread appeal. And I get that, I have no problem with it. I just wish that it could have crashed and burned under another name. I love Forged Alliance for what it is, and never thought to myself, "I wish this was more like C&C". Part of the appeal was the scale of every aspect of the game. The unit/structure diversity for me as well as the nonlinear paths to victory were what made the game great. Both of which are no longer present. Personally, I feel that they owe us a worthy successor to the original but it's up to them if they want to gamble a loyal fanbase for a bigger demographic. I just wish that it was some other game that was the "sacrificial lamb". Overall I get the impression that you too are mourning the loss of a truly great franchise and you have my condolences.
Blizzard's art style has in general become quite anime-inspired in recent years, and it's really been since Warcraft III in particular. The fact that it shows through in D3 isn't surprising at all and anyone who didn't see it coming for D3 needs to be shaken. Most of the original D1 and D2 staff aren't even there anymore, it's the same art team (more or less) that did World of Warcraft. This really smacks more of design inertia than intent. If you have a prevailing style in a large art department, changing that style can takes years and significant employee turnover to achieve. All things said, I think their only screw-up was the monk trailer (now that was just plain horrible...), and everything else has looked to be fairly faithful.
I tend to view what the author is talking about less as a graphical thing and more of a gameplay thing. I personally have only one series I feel strongly about on the subject: Command and Conquer. I really felt that Generals killed the series by stripping everything that was special and wonderful about C&C, never to return. As far as I'm concerned, Red Alert 2 was the last true C&C game ever made.
Seriously? Generals is the only installment in the entire franchise I consider to be complete crap. I was a bit disappointed with Red Alert 3, but don't hate it as I do generals with it's clunky graphics, dull units, boring story, and the general fact that while it is an RTS, it just doesn't quite feel like a C&C game at all, which offends my 'fanboyishness.
C&C 4 is looking all set to become #2 on my hated C&C games list. Seriously, they've kept the same formula for over a decade, and it's worked out great. One game left in the series and they go and change everything? I love C&C for what it is/was, if I wanted a different type of game, I'd play a different type of game.
I'm glad they released FFXIII on the Xbox...no way I'm buying a PS3 since I already have a comp and Xbox, and not all FF fans dislike the new game I personally loved the turn based final fantasy, but I'm always open to trying new things. Most of us FF gamers don't know how to adapt but I'm sure loving number 13 (on the Xbox 360 )
Interplay did that. Obviously they are total diffrent games, they arn't even set in the same world. The POINT is that descent fans didn't like the fact they used Descent for this, exactly the same as C&C fans didn't like the use of C&C for generals (which had a nice upgrade/experince tree and fun/funny feel "AK-47s for EVERYBODY!". And the chineese hackers! lol
I mean I don't care that they are called that, the main title dosnt matter to me if the subtitle is clearly a different game.
If you do the same thing over and over, eventually your fanbase will get bored with it.
You gotta innovate at some point.
The key is not to crap on your current base.
It's all about greed man.
Off topic: Freespace was a pretty sweet game. What ever happened to the space flight sim genre anyway?
It became a "niche" market, so no boardroom executive will dare greenlight such a game. There's also the fact they require more attention and skill than most other games, especially when it comes to all the thousand commands required in such a game, such as communications, targeting, energy and shield management, and weapons selection. It would be hard to fit all those controls into a console controller, so that is another strike against it.
Freespace was bad-ass: possibly one of the few (with X-Wing and TIE Fighter) space combat games I enjoyed and want to paly again.
C&C General was bad..horrid bad: I mean "3D MAP WOW!!!" But your foot soldiers are a red upper body, a blue lower body and some rectangle pixel as a weapon..wow, nice going idiots.
And Diablo 3: I saw screenshots, it's seems "World of Warcraft: After Dark" Kinda reminds me of Warhammer Online: All that grim, bloody universe seems so..clean and dangerous instead.
Every single Final Fantasy game since at least IV has been called "the worst ever" at some point of its history, and I say "at least" because that's when I got into it, I doubt it was any different before then. Typically it lasts only until the next one is released, but for some (VII, IX, XII) it tends to linger for a bit longer.
Now, I'd say it wasn't to *extend* their appeal so much as, well, appeal to the hardcore. FFXII's plot was very much in line with the previous Ivalice installments, Final Fantasy Tactics and Vagrant Story, replacing the angst-filled drama with political intrigue and the violent, psychotic demigods of old with more realistic, very much human Anti Villians. Both its previous games' plots, you may notice, were greatly lauded by critics and players alike (however little they had), and the same went for FFXII as well among those that had played them. The problem, the one thing SquareEnix didn't count on, was that the playerbase of those two masterpieces was *VERY* small (both are considered the 'unknown gems' of the PSX's library, much like Ico and Shadow of the Colossus are for the PS2), and so we didn't have the weight to silence the They Changed It Now It Sucks majority that had only played the mainline series.
And the gameplay? same old criticisms that appeared elsewhere when the ATB replaced the strictly turn-based variant of older games. Exactly. The. Same.
Me, I'd rather they keep innovating in each new installments. I don't want the Metal Gear Solid franchise to become another FIFA Soccer or Madden, same old trash except shinier this year. Sure, sometimes you just want 'more of the same', but sometimes that 'more of the same' comes with more of the same problems which won't get addressed as long as you refuse changes (see also: Tomb Raider's horrible control scheme before the Legends reboot, FIFA Soccer's 8-way movement in the PC version at least, etc), and many changes just make the franchise better (like GalCiv2 giving each race its own tech tree in later installments).
TR: Legend didn't change the core gameplay at all. They just improved it. Maybe some poeple LIKE horride cameras and stuff but I don't. I like progress, better controls, smoother gameplay, less focus on annoying stuff, more focus on fun stuff. I think many developers forget what 'fun' actualy IS within thier game world. Like the gearbox dudes (did I just say dudes?) saying they realised half way through Borderlands they want the game to be 'fun'.
TR Legends changed the *controls*, which had been virtually unchanged for the past 6 games. And it's not an improvement, as that implies it was somehow based on the old one, it was a complete redesign from the ground up. And thankfully, because as much as I liked the older games (err, for the most part), the run-stop-turn-run pattern was already growing old by TR2 and only became worse as the series went on.
And 'fun' is, as this very thread demonstrates, completely subjective. I found FFXII's battle mechanics very fun, and one of the (many) reasons I consider it to be the finest mainline FF game and likely the best console RPG ever made as well. Compare and contrast with the OP's opinion on it, and you wouldn't believe we played the same game. Some people play games like Race '07 and find all the 'simulation' aspects get in the way of their fun, others play games like Need For Speed and find the lack of realism and simplistic physics prevent it from being interesting enough to be fun, and if you give them a middle ground like GRID all you'll get is complains from *both* camps instead of just one.
What happened with SupCom2 wasn't innovation, it was reversion. They took the franchise's defining strengths, the very things that made the first game "innovative", and replaced them with the same generic mechanics we've been seeing for years.
If a company wants to make a game that's more mass-market than the fresh, innovative product that made them successful in the first place, they should create a new franchise. Then they won't have potential customers ignoring them because they "hated the first game", and existing fans won't feel misled or abandoned.
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