If you can’t do something well. Don’t do it.
That’s been my philosophy on game development from the beginning. In Galactic Civilizations, it meant not having any multiplayer. We didn’t have the budget and resources to do multiplayer well. So we didn’t do it.
In Elemental, single-player is our focus. But we have decided to have multiplayer and that means we are going to do make sure it is done right.
Real-Time strategy games do well in multiplayer because the game continuously moves forward. Players don’t have to wait for other players. In turn based, players inevitably have to wait and that makes them less ideal.
From a design perspective, having lots of different options for handling turns is going to be our focus. From a sheer budget point of view, we cannot justify the resources required to do multiplayer if only hard-core grognards are playing it online.
So let’s look at the different options and then we can discuss your ideas on how we can make a turn-based strategy game fun in online multiplayer.
Elemental will be able to support multiple different turn options so we don’t have to pick one (though we will ultimately *default* to one).
Option #1: Traditional Turn-Base
This is where each player gets their turn. They hit the turn button and then the next person is able to move. There is typically a time limit on turns.
Option #2: Simultaneous turns.
This is where all players move at the same time. When done, they hit the turn button. There is typically a time limit involved on turns or a timer that starts when the first person hits the turn button.
So what are some things we can play around with here? What are some other OPTIONS we could have?
I like the idea of a time bank. You get N seconds per turn. If you finish your turn early, you get to add those seconds to your time bank. If you run out of time, it starts to cost you gold. Like 10 gold per second. If you run out of gold, the turn goes automatically.
There could be city improvements that give players additional time to take turns.
Example:
The default time you get would be based on what “League” you were in. 5 seconds for the “gold” league. “10 seconds for the “silver” league and 15 seconds for the “bronze” league. We’ll talk about these leagues more at GDC.
Player could build a Time Bank improvement that adds 1 second to what they get.
Each second they don’t use, goes into their global time pool. Players could “cash in” seconds at a rate of 5 gold per second they want to exchange for.
Obviously, the above would be for experienced online players of the game. Players could choose a variety of options here but what we are looking for is a way to satisfy players who know the game and want to play online with other people and not have it be a long slog.
Certain things would need to stop the clock. Namely, battles. We are inclined to have tactical battles turned OFF by default for online but players can turn it on depending on their setup.
Tactical Battle Options would include:
We will also have a Tactical Battle Threshold for minimum battle rating necessary to turn it into a tactical battle (ranging from 0 to 1000). You may not want a tactical battle of two soldiers but you might want a tactical battle when it’s two grand armies.
A lot of you, like me, have tried to play turn-based games multiplayer. And a lot of you, like me, found them very tedious and not fun because of the pacing.
I like playing mulitplayer RTS games and FPS’s but multiplayer turn based just has never made the cut. So, what do you think would make it something that would be compelling to a larger audience that you would enjoy?
Are you sure that five, ten or even fifteen seconds is enough to get enough done in a single turn? I love the idea of a time bank, but you'd probably end up using your entire turn just moving a single unit, let alone designing one!
For anything more then two players, a traditional one person at a time approach just doesn't work. It takes an eternity to get anything done once your empires start to grow, and 2/3 of that time is spent doing nothing in a 3 player game, or 3/4 in a 4 player game, etc.
I like the idea of time limited turns and a time bank, though the numbers need tweaking. 5 seconds is hardly enough time to move more then one unit. Maybe the times should be configured at the start of the game. With simultaneous turns, giving everybody say 45 seconds a turn lets the game move at a good pace but also gives you time to do things.
Obviously whatever otptions you come up with, make sure you can switch it all OFF as well. Nothing worse than being forced into a playstyle because they couldn't just have a "no sex please, we're brittish" option.
I must have been distracted by Wintersongs new avatar...
But strong filtering options in 'open' multiplayer games is a must.
Simultaneous turns are good for this kind of game, atleast they work well for Civ4.
Time limits are good for if youre playing with random people so I can see why youd want it. Personally though i will mostly be playing with real life friends where people may have to go afk, or just be learning the game and so need a longer time. So i would really like the option to turn it off in the options when setting up a game.
Lots of options i think is the key to any time system as it comes down to personal preference & what kind of game youre playing (Casual with friends vs Competitive with others). Some of us like TBS games because we're too slow for RTS
Also, what the hell is a grognard??
If we go with a more traditinal turn-based, there needs to be something for players to do when it's not their turn. I would propose to allow access to the unit creator and city summaries at the very least, perhaps even 'planning' bulding construction and unit training to begin next turn. I would love to see some kind of magic that could be used on other players' turns, as well. Perhaps some kind of time-altering spell that allows some of your units to move or spells to be cast out of the normal turn order. Something to keep players alert for opportunities to act even when it's not their turn.
Example: I end my turn and watch in horror as a large stack of soldiers marches out from under its cloak of invisibility and into my capitol. Fortunately, I had cast 'future sight' before the end of my turn, so I can now change the move orders of one of my own stacks, bringing an army in to fight in defense of the city.
double post. I seem to be having a lot of trouble with this lately.
This looks like a good idea for tactical battles, but it just reminded me of somthing else that may be a little off topic, we played some age of wonders recently during our lunches at work and the ability to save & quit during a tactical battle would be a god send. (You can't in AoW and the large battles always seem to start 2 minutes from the end of lunch!)
I would say 20 seconds for Gold, 40 seconds for Silver, and 60 seconds for Bronze.
"Blazing" (or lightning) could reduce times by 20%, and slow poke could increase times by 20%.
I mean honestly, the first Turn can take clear over a minute (deciding where your capital is going to go ... sometimes a big deal).
Then middling turns can take only 10 seconds, where stuff is slow, and then increase to 20 seconds per turn once things pick up, and maxing at 30 seconds per turn in the mid game, and then increasing a bit more (40 seconds) in the late game.
I mean, for Civ 4 even THAT is pretty fast. Sure *sometimes* it can be faster, but usually only in the early game. Then, I suppose, when we have "tactical battles" ... those can last up to 5 minutes if we are doing a fairly large battle??
I mean, I would nearly 100% guarantee that two people that have built up armies for 3-4 hours will be willing to take 20 minutes or so for the "final battle" if it ends up taking that long. And im relatively certain, that if others are present, they won't mind watching a "final battle" for awhile.
So how will time banks work for ... um ... Tactical battles? Or will the speed of Tactical battles be a Gentleman's agreement?
As I have said earlier, I think people should be able to click "allow our battle to be seen by others" - which will always allow your close allies to watch the battle, but if BOTH click it, then EVERYONE can watch the battle.
Hmmm, yea, being able to Save during a tactical battle (in Single Player) sounds like a good idea.
Also, as a general rule ... if you are WAITING on someone else you can still re-assign your cities, add building projects, and move troops (ect). Thats kind of the *whole point* behind simultaneous turns.
Its only once EVERYONES turn ends that you stop moving. If everyone is waiting on the last guy, they can still move.
How about "WEIGHTED Simeltanous turns" as a catch up mechanism. Everyone puts in their orders at once, the one that issues the least # of orders goes first, then followed by the rest.
One thing that can work well with simultaneous turns is separating movement+city management from combat. Both players can do movement and city management at the same time, and once everyone has decided on their moves, the moves are processed, and combat may result. All combat is dealt with before people are allowed into the next turn to do movement and city management again.
One needs sets of rules for how things move when units try to move past each other, setting up ambushes, or defences.
Intel should be based on what your units could see at the end of the previous turn.
This was a method that worked well for play by email type games: Stars!, Laser Squad Nemesis.
Master of Orion 2 also used something like this, I think.
Another thing that can make a huge difference to how well a multiplayer game plays out is the communications: Built in voice chat, and a text chat you can use at any time. Options for communicating with specific players or groups of allies. Setting times for turns maybe helps, but being able to talk to people, and chide them for being last to finish - again, maybe workes even better.
I think not having Hotseat multiplayer in a turn based strategy game is foolish, despite how few games have it.
I had hours and hours of fun playing hotseat Alpha Centauri with my nephew and my other friends who like 4x games often do the same when they can.
Simultaneous turns but allow actions or at least looking at things after you submit your turn. Don't make people sit and not be able to do anything while waiting for other people.
I like the time bank idea a lot! Connecting gold to time taken during a turn? Umm, ew.
Its obvious that most people can't spend hours and hours, day after day on one online game. So some kind of quick 2-3 hours and finished small map might attract more players.
I don't remember if the plan was to have an AI take over for a dropped player. If 4 out of 5 players are online and ready to play, what happens? If 20 hours into a game someone says they can no longer play, can someone else take over for that person?
Oh please don't connect it to the gold. Sometimes I get up and go to the bathroom between turns or need to start dinner for the missus. A "suck my gold dry if I miss it" would be brutal.
Let the players set the turn timer On or Off, and how fast it should move. Some people take 2+ minutes to decide what they are going to do. Some of them even refuse to play with a turn timer because of the "pressure." I've played with both kinds. Also don't forget slower hardware will be very slow near end game with many units fielded, this happens with Civ a lot where the guy on the laptop is always running out of time. 23 seconds spent loading the next turn, only 7 left to act.The best time formula I've found is 1) a bank of time that tapers off (first you get a bonus second for every two seconds left on your turn, then after a certain point, 3:1, then 4:1, so somebody can't bank an hour of extra time).
What also works well is scaling the timer to the size of empires in the game. With more things to do, players need more time than when all they had was a soverign wandering around the wastes.
In simultaneous mode, if two people give the same action at roughly the same point, randomize whose unit gets to the tile first. Don't forget that or the person with the fastest hardware will always grab the goodie hut/invade the city first.
I like this idea and taking it a bit further... I see a hybrid-like system working out quite well.
Use a traditional turn-based method for unit movement and battles.
For everything else, like unit creation, building queues, checking on things, etc...it can be done at any time. Accumulation of gold, maintenance costs, etc would be done at the end of someone's move turn.
To keep things from taking too long, implement a clock that gets reset after all users have used up their time. I think this is similar to how chess matches work. Everyone gets a pool of 10 minutes. You can use up this time however you want. If you use up all your time before everyone else, your move turn will be automatically be resolved by the computer. Once all players have used up their time, the counter will reset and everyone will be given a new pool of 10 minutes, or however long...could even be set at the beginning of a game. I think this will keep the turns from being too long and will allow people the flexibility to manage their time a bit between turns. Only problem I see with this is people who try to hoard their time until the very end and basically get free turns on everyone else. Shrinking the pool of minutes would probably prevent that though.
Anyhoo, just my $.02
In multiplayer TBS, the real important thing is minimizing downtime where players do nothing but stare at the screen waiting for other people to finish. Turn timers are one way to do that but another really good way to keep people entertained (rather than bored) is to give them something to do between turns.
FallFromHeaven includes a minigame called Somnium. It's a fairly irrelevant little card game you can play for a mild relations boost. But when waiting for your buddy to finish his banked 7 minutes of gameplay to conduct a massive war or whatever, it gives you something to do.
Elemental could include little minigames along the same lines. They shouldn't impact the game in a significant way so people feel like they have to play them to do well, but they should give a little minor reward if a person chooses to do them. You could also include things like lore books you could read that you find while adventuring. A card game variant. A pet minigame. Space invaders, if you felt like breaking the fourth wall.
"and a text chat you can use at any time. "
Oh please include a chatbar that's part of the default UI during multiplayer. Chatting to people without having to hammer tab or something in multiplayer also gives me something to do, and people are more likely to respond back if they don't have to break flow.
Seriously FFH did that? I was thinking about long turns earlier and thought some kind of little minigame to play would be nice.
as far as the cloth map game play. simaltanious turns will help reduce time spent for everyone to complet a turn. I think civ 4 is a good example of this. The only problem is this can still yake a long time. And having a time limit is a bad idea unless your plaing a small map without much to over see. In big maps with lots of citys and units the management is to high and you end up not playing tacticaly because your being rushed.
The idea of gold seems strange. Although it could make an intresting game. My idea or spin on that is everyone would have a fixed amount of time to complet a turn. and every minute or so the player takes after the fixed time ends they will be taxed gold and then the gold is split between the other players. This way you are rewarded for having to wait on the players that take to long. it would also be important to have the time limit increase with each turn because the longer a game goes on the more likly it is that youll have more to manage.
Just because you pressed end turn should not mean your left waiting! you should still able to move about your inventory or look around the map. maybe there could be a mini game were everyone bets alittle gold on a dragon race or somthing an it ends when everyone is done with there turn?. I dont know. Im just saying if everyone is waiting for a long time ther needs to be somthing to do that brings you deeper into the world thats fun to do, but isnt nessesary to win.
Why not use an initiative or speed option there. So if turns are happening at the same time and two units move to the same spot to say grab a goodie hut, then the one with the highest initiative gets the item regardless if it's the first one there or not.
On simultaneous moves, I'd like to see a system used
I'm assuming no unit will have a move greater then 6 under normal circumstances
divide turns into 120 "pulses"
People set their moves by the square before hitting turn for each unit moving
The units move on the proper pulse. A move 1 unit moves on the 120th pulse, a move 5 unit moves on the 24th, 48th, 72nd, 96th, and 120th
If they intersect, they fight, and the length of the fight lowers their move accordingly.
A short fight of 2-3 turns won't slow that move 5 unit much (down to 4). A long fight of 25 turns might slow it down to 3.
This can be adjusted as needed.
I think using this method of simultaneous movement might be the fairest method of doing things.
I like the idea of "highest initiative moves first" although this could be tricky to do in Simul turns. Perhaps allow for two or more players to all be sitting on the same tile, and then whichever unit has the highest initiative gets the goody hut.
DEFINITELY allow people to play the game as normal even after they have submitted their turn. Only once everyone has submitted their turn does the "Next Turn" go into play.
I know I'm in the minority here, but I've had no 'fun' playing TBS in multiplayer and its a shame that resources are being used on this feature.
Don't get me wrong I hope you come up with something compelling for the masses. For me TBS games allow me to think at my own pace and not at the expense of someone elses time. Whilst time limits seem a way to keep the game progressing, they become a problem as you get closer to the end game if the size of the play area is too large.
I just hope the single player and the AI functions don't suffer for it.
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