As per the title.
Why does the word socialism in the US cause frothing at the mouth? Not comming from the US I don't understand this, I can see socialism and capitalism both have positive points as well as negative ones, but it seems crazy to me that when Obama talked of changing the healthcare system there were all these people protesting saying "Government hands off my health" and such.
After watching "Sicko" on TV the other night I think the average US person has little knowledge on socialism. I live in Australia with what would be called a "socialist" healthcare system and I think its great but we are not a socialist country.
So, without getting political, why is the culture of the United States of America so fixated on capitalism?
Cheers. I read 'always metastasize' as 'always metastasize with or without treatment' rather than 'always metastasize irrespective of treatment'. I was involved in this so I read into it what I wanted to read. Skimmed the rest because the health statistics debate isn't something I care about.
My frustration with subsidizing boner meds is that it creates a disincentive for pharmaceuticals to spend their overhead on anything other than what are, in effect, luxury goods for the developed world. Not that they've ever had much incentive to do otherwise.
How would you change it?
And, do you ever take advantage of those meds?
If you were the head of a pharmco, what would you spend your overhead on?
Well, for starters, erectile dysfunction wouldn't exist. World peace to follow...
Boner meds? Not yet. But I'm still young.
Luxury goods for the developed world. Actually, who am I kidding. A substantial part of it would go towards my salary/retirement package. And, by extension, towards drugs (not the kind manufactured by Merck and Pfizer) and prostitutes.
Not sure if that answered your questions, though, so I'll read between the lines.
If your point is that: (1) the current political and economic system is unlikely to change to the extent that humanitarian goods take precedence over luxury goods; and (2) I'm a hypocrite for enjoying those luxury goods; then you're probably right on both counts, although not the particular issues. (I throw in the qualifier only because I'm desperately insecure about male impotence. Note that I listed erectile dysfunction before world peace above.)
But I never claimed to be practical; nor moral, or even consistent. Just outraged by the structural blindnesses of the sort of system that we live in, whatever significance my outrage carries. If you want to convince me to give up that outrage, then I'm afraid we're at an impasse. And not the sort of impasse that can be settled by a battle of the wits, however unwise it is to go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.
But hey, that system won't change, no matter what abusive names I invent for it. And even if it kills people, it kills relatively fewer than its competitors (liberal democracy has had a lot of crappy competitors).
the video game industry of which we are such gracious customers of is as pure free market as you can get. I shudder to think wwhat socilaized video gaming would look like. think Atari ET times a thousand.
luckily video games do not have the power to oppress people.
It isn't the free market Americans are obsessed with, it's deregulation.
A free market requires competition and market power equality. The US seems insistent on keeping regulation out, even in the face of those externalities.
While a perfect free market is impossible , and government intervention is by its nature inefficient, usually the efficiency loss is less with intervention in the face of this level of market power inequality and a gutted Sherman act. Thank the contract with America (and this is despite my respect for Newt Gingrich and Phil Gramm, I just feel those two got to go too far on principle over policy)
And all powerful socialist government can't oppress? Nazi Germany? The Red Terror? Cahirman Mao? Fidel Castro? Based on history, I will take my chances with the free market.
A government powerful enough to give you everything you can ever want or need is strong enough to take everything away - Thomas Jeffereson.
I'd take my chances with the free market if it there was more market power equality.
Part of the role of Government is to correct externalities that develop in free markets- such as pollution, monopolies, and other such things. Even Milton Friedman admits that.
Pshaw. It's quite the opposite of a free market. Copyright depends entirely on government (it needs both 'independent' enforcement mechanisms and a public acceptance of that force being legitimately applied). No pure free market could sustain copyright or patent law other than through force of private arms.
EA is the epitome of capitalism, a large and exceedingly wealthy organization that has become so enamored of the charts illustrating the steady growth of their wealth that their leaders have lost all meaningful contact with both the people they employ and the customers they have won. Sound like a government to you? That's because major corporations and governments are the same class of organism--large-scale formal organizations that tend to 'institutionally forget' the reasons they were established and end up focused on protecting and expanding turf for individuals in the leadership hiearachy.
Your position for sustenance of copyright is a bit extreme don't you think? You have made the best argument for less government, unwittly or not, I have seen recently. On EA, we agree...Activision.
Then they die.
There, finished your post.
Yea, well, the heliocentric view of the solar system was once considered 'a bit extreme.' Not that I'm claiming to be a Galileo or anything. I'm mostly just a chorus boy for John Perry Barlow's essay The Economy of Ideas. Well, that, and a former civics prof who really wishes that most college grads understood how important the mercantilist world view was to the shape of economic thinking in the founding era of the U.S. republic. As someone who very much believes in making best possible efforts to use government power to support the general welfare, I pick on (c) worship because so many who seek or admire software-based wealth claim to hate govenment presence in markets.
@psychoak: You misunderestimate the profound (and often pernicious) nature of formal organizations--they can spawn heirs, and the greater the power of the org that 'dies,' the greater the liklihood that a viable heir is waiting in the wings. After all, the Whigs never really disappeared even if modern straight men don't openly wear wigs in public.
Companies that survive the founder are historically rare, companies that continued for a century or more without regime changes are historically zero. When 99% of them don't die in a less regulated mess than we've now achieved, I'll accept your position. They still collapse even with all the protections put in place by uncle. We should have lost most of the old investment banks, the biggest insurance company, multiple national banks and two of the three surviving car manufacturers just in the last couple years. Government is what is keeping those rotting corpses around to screw us again. They should have all gone into bankruptcy, to either be restructured or liquidated.
Hard to disagree with that
I believe the historial context of where capitalism originated, and what drove it have not been considered on the thread. Unless the origins of a philosophy (any philosophy) are taken into account, it is hard to quantify how or why that philosphy evolved into whatever it maybe in any point in time. To jump into the middle of a constantly shifting evolution of systemic thought, or change in the evolution of a philosophy lays such thinking wide open to mis charactorisation - even plain deliberate untruth to conveniently skip over historial reality in favour of popularist thinking. It all revolves around the evolution of the Rights and Freedom of Individuals
The whole principle of the "Freedom of the Individual under Law" - a pre-requisite for any "Free" system , beit legal, commercial, trade, private way of life, etc - was first encapsulated by the Magna Carta in 1215 (without getting picky over year of origin and revisions etc). It was as a result of the Barons in England rebelling against the absolute power of the monarchy, and the whole framework of feudalism, serfdom etc that had spawned for centuries. The Magna Carta laid down the defining principles of Freedom at its basic forms, so much so, that over the following 200 years European Countries based their constitutions, political and legal system on various variants of that original charter. Whilst in practice Feudalism still existed in many ways for another 300 years or so in Europe post Magna Carta, it days were numbered, the Magna Carta had "let the cat out of the bag". Absolute Monachies were increasingly citing the Magna Carta throughout Europe as their justification for appearing "Liberal" and "acting for the people". The principle of the Constitutional Monarch was born, and spreading like a wild fire.
The importance of it, and its key role in the evolution of Democracy is strongly recognised by the American Bar Association as the foundation of the current democratic and legal sysems throughout the world. The American Bar Association paid for, and maintain a memorial on the Site of the signing of the Magna Carta in England. See: [url=http://www.runnymede.gov.uk/portal/site/magnacarta/menuitem.f38b9c56ee32432edf7a8e7c9f8ca028/]American Bar Memorial[/url]. My personal interest? I live 4 miles down the road from the Memorial.
The Magna Carta has even been recently Cited by the Californian Supreme Court as a relevant factor in its judgement concerning non-attorney judges (lay magistrates in UK terms) in its 1974 Ruling:
".............. The principle we announce today is not a novel one. It dates back at least to 1215 and the Magna Carta (§ 45) where it was written, "We will not make men justices, constables, sheriffs, or bailiffs, unless they are such as know the law of the realm, and are minded to observe it rightly." We conclude that, under today's advanced standards, due process demands that henceforth a defendant charged with an offense carrying a possible jail sentence must be provided with an attorney judge to preside over the proceedings, unless he elects to waive such right"
In the Centuries that followed the Magna Carta, Freedom for individuals was fought for, argued over, evolved, even caused many major European wars. It was subjected to ever increasing philosophical thinking in terms of Free Markets (Europepean source of angst in 16th and 17th centuries, and had spawned the French Revolution with its crys of "liberty and Justice", the last vestige of Middle Ages Feudalism ended up in the guillotine basket along with the head of the French King. The rise of Liberalism as a political mainstream grew alongside Free Marketeers in Europe in the Middle Ages, and was spawned by such thinking.
In the swirl of these events, and growing clamour for Political and Personal Freedom, a group of colonists gathered in England, driven by a hatred of the last vestages of feudalism and absolute monarchists epoused by King George. The situation was a complex one, however the aspect pertinent to the OP above, is the passionate and driving desire by the colonalists to be rid of interfering external influences in their lives - they wanted freedom, genuine unadulterated Freedom, the Magna Carta was about to spawn its ultimate proponents. So they sailed from UK for the North American Continent.
Here arguably, was Utopia, or as close as you would get to it at that time. They were the founding colonists, the first, it was a clean sheet, no external influence existed to hold back their passionate desire to place the individual and their freedoms above all else. So much so, as we all know, they booted out King George and us Brits after unjustified interference from King George in the colony's affairs. The US Independence, together with the heavy influence of the prior French Revolution and attendent French Republic Constitution, let loose an unrestrained surge towards individual freedoms, and free trade principles in North America. Whilst such thinking had spawned in the Europe, it was grossly constrained in its early days by the last of the Feudal Kings. Not so in the North American Continent.
A famous quote from Churchill:
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except all those tried before it"
The philosophies of Democracy, Free Market, and Liberalism exploded outwards in the US like a Bush Fire, there was nothing to dampen it down. No external influence as in Europe, existed on the Continent to hold it back. It was driven by that burning desire of the very first founding colonists from England to create a life guided by Freedom in its ultimate forms. Its but a short hop to evolve the US version of capitalism from such an historic background.
So the short answer to the OP is "its all they have ever known". If such principles are all a population has ever known, has survived over 250 years of internal evolution of ideas of its practical incarnation, and many external threats to its philosophical existence as the very core of its daily life ........
...... You get real passionate about it
Regards
Zy
The original poster's question is simple:
Why the obsession with socialism / capitalism?
I think the first requirement to answer this is to note that the phenomenon exists. I will quietly submit the rest of this thread as proof of that. Very strong opinions, based on very varying degrees of facts.
A significant portion would have to be ascribed to the cold war. McCarthyism - communist witch hunts, building and owning the ultimate weapons of terror, and the constant threat of the world ending in a nuclear holocaust would certainly polarize opinions strongly. A half century of demonizing - which was necessary - will leave a strong mark on people's opinions.
Secondly, there's the whole thing about the 'pursuit of happiness'. As was said earlier, you had the right to pursue happiness, but actually catching it was up to you. Capitalism is the best system to 'get rich fast'.
Thirdly, if you go into political theory and the influence of markets upon policy and public opinion, capitalism is a self-strengthening system, and slightly dangerous, because democracy requires capitalism - but capitalism does not require democracy. One example, a democracy requires free media so as to ensure freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean free media can't be owned by media conglomerates pushing their own agendas. You will never see media push for media regulation (unless it's to kill off a competitor.).
These three factors combined are at least influential on why socialism is considered the bogeyman more so than almost everywhere else.
1: It is the enemy.2: It is the opposite to one of the, if not THE, american ideal.3: You will not hear much publicized argument for it.
I am guessing that with the end of the cold war, the increasing distance to the end of the enemy picture, socialism will become less of a bogeyman.
But that's the outside view.
A slight note, the same demonizing was going on in europe, but with a stronger focus on COMMUNISM, not socialism - we differentiate strongly between the two, while the trend I see in americans is to not see any difference.
Very astute observation, and I believe mostly correct. I will not comment on EA itself as I am not familiar with their corporate culture, but as a general rule, you analysis of big business is correct.
But I will digress with you a bit on the nomenclature of Major corporations. I think it is less the companies themselves, than it is the quality of the CEO. A CEO that runs an established company is not the same type as a CEO that creates it. The latter being more of a free market cowboy, while the former being a more perfect fit for your description. The problem with most large corporations is they lost their entrepreneur spirit once they got big and either retired or sacked their startup CEO. I think one of the best examples of that is APple. Fortunately for them, Jobs was brought back in time to save the company. And the recent (last 10 years) success of Apple is almost totally due to Jobs taking back the company.
I agree totally, Socialism bogeyman as defined in American eyes has been a huge factor in it all. The average American has no real context or knowledge of what Socialism really is, only in that it differs from their form of democracy. Socialism was in fact, in its original form, the original incarnation of democracy. Now of course, they are popularised as opposing equals.
Without that historical background as to where and why democracy & freedoms first evolved, current terminology gets confused by applying modern meaning to the original terms spawned in the middle ages in Europe "Free Market, Democracy, Freedom for Individual under Law" are all concepts spawned in the European Middle Ages up to the end of the 19th Century. The evolution of Democracy and Capitalism in the US did not "just" happen, did not happen "just" because of the cold war for example. Any of the many individual isolated events, or individuals with influence, are merely way points along the road of its evolution in the US. For something to happen and create a Culture at its basic core, at its most fundemantal level, not just evolve part of its practical implementation due to passing external influences, takes centuries.
Events such as Independence, US Civil War, Repealing of Slavery, WW1, WW2, the Depression, MacCarthyism, USSR, Cold War all had their part to play in its modern form. However America was fundamently Democratic and driven by personal freedoms way before each and any of those events. Whilst the events very definitely had an influence on the short term direction Democracy and Freedoms took in the ever continuing evolution of their practical implementation, they did not define those freedoms in the first place, the principles behind those freedoms pre existed those events, way, way before.
That is why the Historical context is so important in understanding what is there now, how and why it evolved, and what will drive its future evolution. Without that context, there will be another pointless bogeyman aka Socialism, raise its head in such a way as to deflect progress on the core principles. Its life, human beings love to use their own lifetimes as the ultimate explanation, to justify anything and everything, does not make it correct, it rarely does, always the Historical context lurks to trip up such wishful thinking.
RegardsZy
I disagree. Socialism is a construct of Monarchism - where the state (in elder days, the Monarch) took care of the people because they were the source (armies) of their power. Democracy sprang up in ancient Greece, and is nothing like what we call Democracy today. However that is due to the fact that the founding fathers of America (and perhaps France) learned from the mistakes of the Greeks.
Read Wired's section on $0.00 http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-03/ff_free. The obsession of a FREE market is getting a physical item for FREE, but paying for a service over time like cell phones, Satellite television, internet, etc. You are paying for the service, but the equipment is free. Here's another way to see the future in console gaming. Say you can get a Wii for FREE (it's the cheapest one of the main 3 consoles) if you paid $299 for a complete Rock Band set/series.
Or put it this way. 95% of Google programs are FREE, except some hosting and cloud computing offers. You are using their software for free, and they are making money off Advertising. Facebook is the same way.
MaarekStele - that is actually the Gilette Razor model. Back in the 1950s, the CEO told the officers of the company that they were not in the razor business, but razor blade business. You have probably noted that printer manufacturers have adopted the model. Give away (or sell for a minimal price) the object, and then charge out the wazoo for the consumables.
Where a company has you locked into buying their consumables (like printers and their smart cartridges and cell phones with service), they are going to make back the cost of the original item many times over during the life of the asset.
You're typing as if there were a clear consensus winner for what the word "socialism" means these days, which there isn't. You seem to be munging together what I tend to call authoritarian socialism (Stalin, Mao, etc.) and democratic socialism as practiced from time to time by some wealthy European states.
On the other hand, you're definitely right that classical Greek democracy was nothing like what we in the U.S. usually mean by that word. It's practically an apples-and-spackle comparison, given the radically different population levels, the extreme complexity of the modern world, and the fact that we have outgrown our founders' terribly limited notion of who "the people" (eligible voters) are. The founders had some smart ideas about checks and balances, but it has been intervening generations who've done the hard work of expanding the franchise to include almost all adult citizens.
Also worth noting is that as we learn more about ancient civilizations, it looks like the primitive Greek democrats were just one among several cultures experimenting with 'self government.' The oldest attempts might well have happened in the Indus river basin many centuries before classical Athens thrived.
Guilty. I was thinking of European socialism (not communism).
Not with the post I made about it. It was strickly Democrat Socialism. I think the other is communism (as practiced, not as defined in Funk and Wagnalls). Just curious, but where do you see me mixing them?
I would be happy for some leads on this. I have studied some of the early histories of India (many moons ago) and thatis where I developed my taste for hinduism (No, I am not nor will be a Hindu, but love the culture surrounding it from a scholarly viewpoint). But of course when I say studied, that was many years ago, and the democracy angle did not enter into it.
It was the monarchism reference, which I suppose you meant as a historical point that leaves many Europeans favoring a stronger state than many US folks might prefer. To me, democratic socialism (not a proper name) is primarily democratic, and hence antithetical to monarchy.
I was web-scrounging yesterday to try to find an old article I remembered about some archeological hints that some Harappan city-states might have been highly egalitarian or even democratic. The one I couldn't find was about a site's lack of elite housing despite the material prosperity. Basically, there's little to no evidence of a monarchy in the ancient Indus Valley cultures, which were rather prosperous and advanced for their time.
One thing I did learn is that the 'real story' is getting a bit munged up with BJP-style politics that has 'scholars' inventing fake Harappan seals and making other shit up in an attempt to claim that those ancient cultures were literate and pre-Vedic. Even if the Harappan script is a real writing system, we might never know what the scraps mean without a find like the Rosetta Stone.
America was founded on the principal of keeping white male's wealth secure from taxes and outside control. Our subsequent voting and tax systems have been constructed around that ideal. As a white male who may soon be wealthy, I am opposed to this policy and will try to stop it through democratic voting and protesting. That is my opinion, which is supported by facts and is perhaps a little one-sided. If you have seen what I have seen of America in the past three years, I must say you would agree.
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