It is mine copy-pasted post from general balance topic, because that thread is dominated by many other balance problems, IMO making dedicated thread for caps is good idea.
1. I am going to edit first post after reading feedback
2. Thread purpose is simple: to give as accurate balance suggestions as possible
Global changes:- Damage taken by Caps from ANTI-MEDIUM (LRF) reduced to 50% (from 75%)- Damage taken by LIGHT ARMOR (LRF) from COMPOSITE (HC) increased to 200% (from 150%)- Damage taken by LIGHT ARMOR (LRF) from CAPITAL (Caps) increased to 100% (from 75%)- Shield regeneration rate on all caps increased to 4/sec (from 3/sec)- Hull repair rate on all caps increased to 2/sec (from 1.5/sec)- Capships Max trainable level increased to 4 (from 3)- Capships Max trainable level after upgrade increased to 5 (from 4)- Capships Max level trainable by Advent Mass Transcendence increased to 5 (from 4)Capital Battleships:Kol Battleship:- Health increased to 3300 (+300, from 3000)- Shields increased to 1450 (+200, from 1250)- Beam DPS increased to 14.0 (from 9.0)- Laser DPS increased to 13.25 (from 8.25)- Armor increased to 6 (from 5)- Railguns: Antimatter cost decreased to 60 (from 75)- Railguns: Cooldown increased to 20 (from 6)- Railguns: No longer slow target- Railguns: Now reduce target max mitigation by 5%/10%/15% for 10 seconds- Railguns: Damage changed to 300/600/900 (from 325/650/975)- Finest Hour: Duration increased to 90 (from 60)Radiance Battleship:- Health increased to 2400 (+200, from 2200)- Shields increased to 2050 (+300, from 1750)- Beam DPS increased to 20.0 (from 15.0)- Plasma DPS increased to 15.0 (from 10.0)- Armor increased to 5.5 (from 4.5)- Animosity: affected ships now are not controllable by their owner- Animosity: Now give Radiance 1%/2%/3% bonus to shield mitigation- Animosity: Duration reduced to 15 (from 20)Kortul Devastator:- Health increased to 2900 (+250, from 2650)- Shields increased to 1675 (+250, from 1425)- Wave DPS increased to 17.0 (from 12.0)- Phase Missiles DPS increased to 10.8 (from 5.8)- Armor increased to 6 (from 5)- Jam Weapons: Affected strikecrafts get 1/2/3 damage/second in addition to already existing effects- Volatile Nanites: Area Radius increased to 4000 (from 2000)- Volatile Nanites: Damage on death area radius increased to 2000 (from 1000)- Volatile Nanites: Area damage on ship explosion increased to 200 (from 150)Capital Support:Dunov Battlecruiser:- Health increased to 3000 (+200, from 2800)- Shields increased to 1225 (+100, from 1125)- Autocannons DPS increased to 11.0 (from 6.0)- Missile DPS increased to 11.0 (from 6.0)- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)- Shield restore: Restoration changed to 350/550/750 (from 250/500/750)- Magnetize: Number of affected SC increased to 12/18/24 (from 8/12/16)- Magnetize: SC collision damage increased to 30 (from 25)- Magnetize: Range increased to 7500 (from 5000)- Magnetize: Duration changed to 10s/15s/20s or 12/18/24 SC killed (from 10s/12.5s/15s or 8/12/16 SC killed)- EMP Charge: Antimatter cost changed to 90/85/80 (from 100/90/80)- EMP Charge: Range increased to 5500 (from 4500)- EMP Charge: Area Radius increased to 3000/3500/4000 (from 2500/3000/3500)Rapture Battlecruiser:- Health increased to 2200 (+100, from 2100)- Shields increased to 1825 (+200, from 1625)- Laser DPS increased to 16.0 (from 11.0)- Beam DPS increased to 14.0 (from 9.0)- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)- Vertigo: Range increased to 6000 (from 4500)- Vertigo: Area Radius increased to 2500/3000/3500 (from 2000/2500/3000)- Domination: Antimatter Cost reduced to 75 (from 150)Antorak Marauder:- Health increased to 2675 (+150, from 2525)- Shields increased to 1375 (+150, from 1225)- Pulse Beam DPS increased to 17.0 (from 12.0)- Phase Missiles DPS increased to 15.0 (from 10.0)- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)- Distort Gravity: Gravity well range to Phase Jump reduction increased to 10%/20%/30% (from 8%/16%/24%)- Distort Gravity: Area Radius increased to 10000 (from 5000)- Distort Gravity: Duration increased to 45 (from 30)- Subversion: Now increase Strikecrafts Build time in entire Gravity well by 100%/200%/300%- Subversion: Ship build time increase increased to 100%/200%/300% (from 50%/100%/150%)- Subversion: Structure Build Time increase increased to 100%/200%/300% (from 50%/100%/150%) - Subversion: No longer stackable- Phase Out Hull: Antimatter cost increased to 60/60/60 (from 60/50/40)- Phase Out Hull: Cooldown time increased to 15/15/15 (from 5/3/2)- Phase Out Hull: Duration increased to 15/15/15 (from 6/8/10)- Phase Out Hull: Restored Shield on friendly ships increased to 200/400/600 (from 200/200/200)- Phase Out Hull: Damage to Enemy Ships increased to 200/400/600 (from 200/200/200)- Phase Out Hull: Now remove 75/150/225 Antimatter from enemy ship- Phase Out Hull: Now restore 75/150/225 Antimatter on friendly shipCapital Planet Killer:Marza Dreadnauth:- Incendiary Shells: damage rate increased to 5/10/15 (from 3/4.5/6)Revelation Battlecruiser:- Guidance: Antimatter cost reduced to 35 (from 75)- Guidance: cooldown time reduced to 10 (from 20)Vulkoras Desolator:- Phase Missiles Swarm: Number of targets increased to 8/12/16 (from 3/5/7)- Phase missiles Swarm: AM cost reduced to 75 (from 90)- Phase missiles Swarm: Range increased to 7500 (from 5000)Capital Carrier:Sova Carrier:- Heavy Strikecraft: damage buff increased to 15%/30%/45% (from 12%/24%/36%)- Heavy Strikecraft: armor buff increased to 4/5/6 (from 2/3.5/5)- Ship start with 2 SC squadrons, additional squadrons at lvl2, lvl3, lvl4, lvl6, lvl8 and lvl10Halycon Carrier:- Telekinetic Push: Cooldown increased to 20 (from 10)- Anima Tempest: Cooldown reduced to 90 (from 180)- Ship start with 2 SC squadrons, additional squadrons at lvl2, lvl3, lvl4, lvl6, lvl8 and lvl10Skinatra Carrier:- Microphasing Aura: Radius increased to 12000 (from 8000)- Replicate Forces: Create 8 frigates or 4 cruisers (instead of 3 frigates or 3 cruisers)- Repair Cloud reworked: Cooldown increased to 30 (from 12) AM cost increased to 120 (from 100/90/80) Duration 20s (from 10s) Now repair: * 3/6/9 hp/s on Strikecrafts * 15/30/45 hp/s on Frigates/Cruisers * 30/60/90 hp/s on Caps/Starbases/Buildings * (instead of 25/35/45 hp/s on Everything) Range increased to 4000/4500/5000 (from 3000/3500/4000)- Ship start with 2 SC squadrons, additional squadrons at lvl2, lvl3, lvl4, lvl6, lvl8 and lvl10Capital Colony Ship:Akkan Battleruiser:- Targeting Uplink: Now give 4%/6%/8% DPS increase in addition to already existing bonusesJarrasul Evacuator:- Colonize: Now add 100%/150%/200% population grow increasese for 240s/480s/720s in addition to already existing bonuses- Colonize: Now give 0/1/2 free levels of Civilian Infrastructure upgrade- Gravity Warhead: range increased to 7500 (from 6000)
Ok, leave "making it spammable" alone. What about simple rebalance (not buff) based on small cost decrease and small cooldown increase (so RC can be castet few more times, but total HP/s regeneration is slightly lower) in order to give scramble Bombers chance of being used? IMO it is perfect non-balance touching solution.
I have another option and two words that solve the problem: Target Filter.
All you have to do is have a target filter for SC, one for capitals/SB's, and one for frigates. SC receive say 10 hull/s and have their armor increase by say, 1/2/3 for the duration. This would make it better for SC as they become harder to kill while the ability is active and also are healed.
For frigates, you could have 15/25/35 hull points healed and a temporary armor increase of 0/.75/1.5.
For capitals/SB's, you could have 30/60/90 hull points per second and an armor increase of 0/.5/1.
This way, larger ships are healed more. If you need a lore explanation, big ships have more surface area and thus can be repaired more quickly.
Let's fix Scramble bombers - Regeneration Cloud AM interaction first. After it, I'm ok with any further changes to this ability. Anyway I like Your idea Volt (target filter). But again - this ability is draining too much antimatter, if we want to see SB time-to-time, RB AM/s decrease is critical.
BTW. instead of giving this ability any damage filter, we can change fixed regeneration value to % buff to natural regeneration - larger targets will be healed faster then smaller because their natural regen is higher.
Well, the two of you were arguing over the power of the ability, so I made it better, more realistic, and scale with ship size. Sure, I want to solve the AM issue, but I don't want the abilities to be chained indefinitely. You should be frugal with your use of it, and honestly, unless facing a horde of Illuminators, N3rull is right: get Overseers. There honestly very little reason you should use RC unless it is to protect things like capitals or SB's, but once again, get Overseers.
That works, but it also means that Vasari PMT's (once upgraded) could shut down RC..
Personally I don't see any big balance problem with RC. Problem is only RC-SB interaction making Scrambled bombers never used. Thats why lowering RC AM/s cost (for small nerf) is IMO best solution.
I'll be skiing for the next ten days so take care.
Well, yeah... I didn't want those exact numbers... I put them up to make a point. Bigger ship=more hps.
Gotta agree with both Arthanis and Volt on RC. I rarely ever use SB simply 'cuz I find RC that much more useful, and it's pretty much one or the other, never both.
What about something like this:
Repeair Cloud:
- Cooldown increased to 25 (from 12)
- AM cost increased to 100 (from 100/90/80)
- Duration 10s (not changed)
- Now repair:
- Range increased to 4000/4500/5000 (from 3000/3500/4000)
Old stats:
(Cost/cooldown) = 8.33/7.5/6.66 AM/s
[on everything]
Health restored per activation: 250/350/450 hp
Real Healing Rate = (healing rate * duration / cooldown) = 21/19/37 hp/s
New stats:
(Cost/cooldown) = 4/4/4 AM/s
[on Strikecrafts]
Health restored per activation: 50/100/150 hp
Real Healing Rate = (healing rate * duration / cooldown) = 2/4/6 hp/s
[on Frigates/Cruisers]
Health restored per activation: 250/500/750 hp
Real Healing Rate = (healing rate * duration / cooldown) = 10/20/30 hp/s
[on Capitals/Structures/Starbases]
Health restored per activation: 500/1000/1500
Real Healing Rate = (healing rate * duration / cooldown) = 20/40/60 hp/s
What do you think?
One more idea:
Power Surge:
- Weapons cooldown reduction increased to 33%/66%/100% (from 25%/50%/75%)
[Power surge is powerful ability, but even with lvl3 power surge Kortul damage is relatively low. Anyway, it is very small buff - but IMO it is step into good direction]
So, this would turn RC from something that is semi-meh, to being a mobile TEC repair platform that affects your entire fleet. This is too good as you suggested it. Nothing in the game, not even Cleansing Brilliance could punch through this when used on a Starbase/high level cap. To find out how much damage something effectively blocks, you take the amount of damage that goes through mitigation (~25%), multiply it by armor the target has (let's say 8 which yields a 40% redux which is 60% getting through), and then divide the hps healed by that number. The result is that you need incredible amounts of damage to go through. In this case, that number is 1000 DPS A Kortul with 3/3 PS would become immortal at this point. A Kortul already takes 666 damage at level 10 without losing an ounce of health. So unless you can somehow muster 1666 DPS, good luck. And for the record, 1666 DPS is the same as 185 Illuminators which I believe is somewhere around 1100 fleet capacity.
So if you gave the Vasari that upgrade, every Vasari player would use:
and would win every single time.
Say, Volt, what if he cut RC's values in half on all values? Would that make it no longer OP?
I will say, though, that PS is probably fine as-is - I don't have much issues with it as it stands, personally, so I don't think it needs a buff.
Note my changes are based on your suggestion... and this RC is weaker then your one
I've added very significant cooldown increase. RC work for 10s, but cooldown is 25 (was 12), so you have 15s hole when this ability is not working. Difference between ability working ~84% of time and ability working 40% of time is significant.
So:
SC total healing rate (including lower cooldown) is 6 times lower (at highest level)
Frigates/Cruisers total healing rate (including lower cooldown) is... ~25% lower (at highest level)
Only Caps/Starbabses/Buildings total healing rate (look above) is ~40% better
In general this rebalance is:
- huge nerf to SC healing rate
- almost no changes (or small nerf) to frigates healing nerf
- ~40% buff to high-weight targets healing rate.
I gave stats calculatons for a reason
Sorry, If i cut values by 50% then this rebalance will be huge nerf to RC... Please note, I gave HUGE cooldown increase. This ability atm can be active for more then 85% time, after this rebalance this value is cut to 40%.
Edit:
Anyway, another stats set:
- Cooldown increased to 30 (from 12)
- AM cost increased to 120 (from 100/90/80)
- Duration 20s (from 10s)
AM/s cost is not changed (4 AM/s)
Real Healing rate (healing rate * duration / cooldown) not changed:
SC: 2/4/6 hp/s
Frigates/Cruisers: 10/20/30 hp/s
Caps/SBases/buildings: 20/40/60 hp/s
Better now?
Yes, that is better.
Basicaly it is THE SAME
Both buff options allow you to heal completely same number of hp for completely same AM cost in same time. I'm ok with both options, but I don't understand why option 1 is in your eyes completely OP while option 2 is "better". Could you explain? (I am going to add option 2 to list, don't worry, I just want to know why almost same stats are so different in your eyes).
Its not a burst ability. Now its possible to overcome it, whereas earlier you could not. Sure, it is more or less the same statistically, but the fact is that the other method was twice as fast makes that one something that would make you invulnerable for 10 seconds. Thats a bomber pass or a couple volleys from standard units. The point is, with that sort of a burst ability, your enemy is going to stop firing at its intended target and go aim at another ship since they have absolutely no shot of punching through it. Because of this, you have the opportunity to use other units as well and when that happens you can have your units back to 100% hull. You can't die. That is why it was OP. Now its powerful but you could get through it if you needed to and it doesn't completely kill the value of ffing your opponent.
Update: Repair cloud.
Idea 1:
All we know newly build caps are relatively less ueful during lategame... What if we could train them more?
- Caps max trainable level increased to 4 (from 3)
- Caps max trainable level after upgrade increased to 5 (from 4)
Idea 2:
As we know Power surge give relatively low bonus to ship damage. What abourt slight buff?
- Power Surge: weapons cooldown reduction increased to 33%/66%/100% (from 25%/50%/75%)
And please comment old ideas too. I hope this list will be useful tool for people creating next patch, so making this list as close to perfection as possible is best option.
Power Surge is fine the way it is. I not against increasing max trainable lvl after research to 5.
Idea 1:All we know newly build caps are relatively less ueful during lategame... What if we could train them more?- Caps max trainable level increased to 4 (from 3)- Caps max trainable level after upgrade increased to 5 (from 4)
Absolutely not a good idea. Some of the abilities are murdurous when maxed out and makes it easy for the capitals to enable their level 6 abilities.
1. Don't forget how expensive buying levels for caps is. Leveling cap to level 5 will cost you more then second cap...
2. Because of cost it will be useful only during lategame WHEN NEWLY CONSTRUCTED CAPS RARE. It will add more diversity.
3. This "easy enabling 6 level" still require hardcore capship leveling. Smart player will not send his fleet on death.
4. These "maxed murderous abilities" will be good reason of building caps even during lategame. It is one of reasons why I've added this suggestion
5. Slightly easier access to level 6 will add more dynamic to game.
Adding the ability to train caps to a higher level is a nerf to Advent, who have "Mass Transductance" ultimate research.
What if we allow Mass transcendence to train ships up to level 5? IMO everything will be fine.
We already do this with our caps in the Distant Stars mod. Its quite helpful IMHO and doesn't unbalance the game. In the few Multi games we shared, the tech was rarely researched anyways (due to the high level of tech it requires) so by the time it did, there were several high lvl caps running around anyways. This allowed others to keep parity longer.
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