Kol don't have enough antimatter to support so expensive Railguns. Before we rebalance GRG into ANY direction we must fix their AM problems first.

ATM Railguns cost 12.5 AM/s - it is insane value.

With my change (from list) they cost only 2.5 AM/s - much better, because player is no longer forced to disable them just to use AFF time to time... But it is still relatively high cost.

N3rull, with your change GRG cost 5 AM/s -nobody will use it because there is still not enough AM to support this AND AFF at the same time.

 

Anyway, I am OK with idea of GRG breaking shield mitigation. But again - GRG main problem is huge AM cost.

Ok, some calculations (all ships at 10 level):

Kortul Devastator:
Power Surge: -1.5 AM/s
Jam Weapons: -2.33 AM/s
Voitaile Nanites: -0.83 AM/s

TOTAL: -4.66 AM/s
Including lvl 10 AM regeneration: -3.19 AM/s



Radiance Battleship:
Detonate Antimatter: -3.0 AM/s
Animosity: -1.6 AM/s
Cleansing Brillance: -1.25 AM/s

Total: -6.11 AM/s
Including lvl 10 AM regeneration: -4.64 AM/s



Kol Battleship:
Gauss Rail Gun: -12.5 AM/s (!)
Flak Burst: -12.5 AM/s (!)
Adaptive Force Field: -1.71 AM/s
Finest Hour: +0.83 AM/s (It regenerates more AM then it cost)

Total: -25.8 AM/s (!!!)
Including lvl 10 AM regeneration: -24.33 AM/s (sad joke...)



Conclusion: Even if we include Finest Hour AM Regeneration Kol is using ~5 times more AM/s then Radiance and ~7 times more AM/s then Kortul. Now you have clear evidence why this ship suck so hard. Increasing GRG damage/giving it shields bypass WILL NOT HELP - this ship is eating AM faster then hungry American is eating hamburgers (joke)...


With my proposed balance changes (from list) situation is "little" better:



Gauss Rail Gun: -2.5 AM/s (less then Detonate antimatter)
Flack Burst: -6.25 (still high value, but this ability is IMO not supposed to be autocasted)
Adaptive Force Field: -1.71 AM/s (no changes here)
Finest Hour: +1.66 AM/s (slight buff)

Total: -8.79 AM/s
With Lvl 10 AM regeneration: -7.32 AM/s (still relatively high, but no longer insanely stupidly high)




I don't say it is enough to make GRG good ability. But without "something like this" GRG have no single small chance of being useful... No matter on "what you want GRG to be" - this ability need HUGE HUGE HUGE AM/s cost reduction. After that we can think of buffing/rebalancing it.

Ehh..  I tend to think of GRG as a super weapon that is meant to take down large targets.  For structures, it does this easily, but it doesn't do so well against shields due to mitigation.  If you made it break shields (say 10%/15%/20%), you would greatly affect its power and would also make it valuable to a fleet as it would weaken a target.  Combine that with Designate Target and you are dealing 180% more damage to capitals.  That would mean that the Kol is anti-cap and would be able to mark enemy ships for death.

Idk...  I guess I just don't want to see a machine gun.  I like the idea of a cannon.  Maybe change the AM cost to 75/70/65, but that is as low as I'll agree to (and even so, I don't really want to, but if it is needed I'd go along with it...).  I want the Kol to have some value in a fleet and acting as a shield breaker would give it one.  Marking a target for death would be devastating in this way.  I just want to see the Kol get used in fleets with an ability that helps out frigates which it currently doesn't have.  FB really just clears out the immediate area, and AF is self only.  Making AF passive and GRG a shield breaker IMO would be best...

I want something that makes the Kol valuable to a fleet.

GRG: great damage versus buildings, but nill against shield mitigation aside from the first shot.

FB: great against close SC, but it is limited by range.

AF: great at keeping the Kol alive.

FH: great at keeping the Kol alive and makes the Kol deal much more damage.  Also makes other abilities more viable.

 

So, as you can see, each ability has something it is good at, but the Kol's abilities are just extremely situational right now.  FB is limited by range and GRG won't be worth the dust on your computer's monitor unless against a structure.  It needs something to be more viable.  It needs something that makes it valuable to a fleet.

Take the Kortul.  It has DS which knocks out abilities and JW which neutralizes SC.  Both of those are worth while.  The Radiance has Det AM which knocks out abilities and deals good damage.  The problem with the Kol is that it just doesn't have enough of a punch to do much of anything.  The following is what I think should happen to the Kol:

GRG Option 1: Damage and AM costs are kept the same, but it reduces shield mitigation by 10%/15%/20% for 20 seconds (the effect does not stack) with a 30 second cooldown.  This yields 2.5 AM/s which is better and also an effect.

GRG Option 2: Damage, AM, and cooldown are kept the same, but it reduces mitigation by 4%/8%/12% for 10/11/12 seconds and it does stack.

FB: Increase range to 3500/4500/5500.

AF: Reduce PM blocking to 25% and damage reduction to 30% but make it passive.

FH: Fine as is.

 

Because you see, if you boost its DPS directly or indirectly (through AM reductions) then you haven't fixed the problem.  The problem is that GRG doesn't do anything after the first shot (aka in the middle of the battle).  It needs to be more powerful during battle, not before, not after, but during.  If you increase its DPS directly to say 2000, then you just made it instantly kill the shields of almost any target in the first volley which is way too powerful.  If you reduce its AM cost to make it a machine gun, then you end up with micro that you don't want to have to do and you made it able to take down any structure within seconds which is quite bad as it would neutralize repair bays and any other static defense including PJI's.

It needs something that can give it a boost in battle but not make it OP any other time.  That is why I suggested making it a shield breaker.  Against structures or at the beginning of the battle, it does very little in the way of changing its effectiveness.  Its power comes from its ability to make the job of killing targets easier for your frigates and also increases its own damage slightly.

 

 

With Finest Hour and Flak Burst buff from my list it can work too... If more people support this idea I can replace my idea by yours one. But IMO this GRG is still up...

 

 

I don't like idea of making AF passive. This ability is neither op or up and don't need any fix. Anyway, GRG in this option is still too expensive.

arthanis, if you want to discuss things logically, you have to make a statement and then put forth arguments to prove them. What you did in your last post was just random picking of what I said, throwing it out of context and shoving an example out of nowhere why it would suck.

It is in no means a part of logical discussion, though I may still enjoy it. So here goes:

So? What's the conclusion? That GRG as I suggested would suck? Does that mean that <pick any ability> on <any ship> sucks because it cannot defeat a Kortul? (note: no ship can defeat a PS+DS kortul face-to-face at the moment; carrier caps doing circles around the gravwell spamming bombers are not a 'face to face' match in my dictionary... more like 'face to exhaust')

Uhh... yes, when it matters, it is minimal. I did a check, for the matter. I checked the average DPS of a Kortul versus Radiance (both lvl4) with and without PS.
Without PS, the Kortul's DPS is roughly 6,36DPS.
With lvl2 PS is turns into a mighty 10,52DPS, which means that having PS active (I'm not mentioning the 10 sec delay between casts) gives Kortul a whopping ... 4,2 DPS or so. Now, how the F does that fare against ANY damaging ability? This IS minimal because Kortul's (any cap's) DPS is minimal in the grand scheme of things. It may be doing 50 DPS forward, but that is mitigated by shields and armor and ends up doing nothing.
Cap's guns are doing nothing compared to even a small pack of LRFs. In fact, I laugh at anyone who thinks any cap's DPS great at higher levels. Cap DPS at high levels is irrelevant to the extreme, the only exception being Vulkoras attacking starbases with Assault Spec.
Capital's DPS is only important in the beginning of the game, where a stronger cap (Kol, Marza) can eliminate rebel frigates in 25 seconds while those more crappy ones (most support caps and Vulkoras, sad as it may be!) take 40+ seconds, which may or may not make a difference in the beginning of the game.
After the initial couple of minutes and maybe a very rare cap fight between lvl2 caps (which is going to be resolved with LRF support or abilities like DA or nanites anyway), cap's DPS is the most irrelevant thing in the game.

I hate people who quote stuff out of context. If you read my post, you'd notice that I mentioned the shield regen just after what you quoted. I hadn't forgotten

Now THAT is TOTALLY wrong. You clearly have never seen a level ~8 Kol chaining lvl3 AFF. Any level 10 cap dies to my typical Vasari armadah of dhoom in a matter of ~20 seconds, Radiance and Kortul included. Kol takes over 40 seconds to eliminate. The difference is MAJOR.

Again, you miss the point. GRG can be made a measly ability that adds some serious damage once every month, which adds up to nothing. My version gives the player an option to use GRG rapidly for a short time for some serious damage. You can use it once every 30 seconds, or you can go on a rampage to finish off your target - for the cost of losing AM more rapidly. Nobody orders you to use GRG as soon as cooldown ends.

In the end, Volt's idea of shield mitigation breaking seems best anyway.

N3rull - both of us have completely different point of view and nobody of us is going to convince other one...

 

Even if we choose option 3, nothing justify high AM/s cost.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, what do you think of something like this:

 

- AM cost reduced to 50

- Damage increased to 400/800/1200

- Reload increased to 20s

- Weapon ignore Shield Mitigation and don't increase Shield Mitigation value

- Now act as interrupt

- Attack give one-time 10%/20%/30% Shield mitigation reduction on target:

• it don't work like permanent debuff, it is one time reduction - SM increase under fire without changes and it's maximum value stays unchanged - it is just one-time reduction
• It act as stackable ability - if you cast 3 level3 GRG on one ship, it Shield mitigation will reduce to minimal value of 15%. Of course if this ship will be attacked by other ships, Mitigation will start increasing under fire (and still can reach it's maximum value) - but it still give extra damage boost to all weapons attacking this ship just after casting GRG

 

 

So: 20/40/60 extra DPS (for 2.5 AM/s) to Kol ignoring shield mitigation + Mitigation reduction increasing effective damage from all other weapons. Interruption will be useful in some situations too.

What do you think of this option? I think it is good consensus between AM/s cost reduction, shield mitigation immunity and additional value of using this ability manually on specific targets.

 

Closer, but no...  I said before I would not agree to anything lower than 65 AM.

 

But, Arthanis..  I think you are putting far too much weight on AM/s.  Its alright for an ability to have a high one if its good enough.

 

@Co: yes, they help, but I believe his point was that you don't get caps for their damage after the first few minutes.  You get them for their abilities.

I'm not saying that they are good, but I'm just saying that GRG doesn't have to be an always on.  If its not then you're fine with having a larger AM/s.

Scout's DPS also sucks, but making a hundred hurts.

Enough of everything hurts.

I keep my opinion that it is the abilities that make caps strong, not their DPS. Sure, it is greater than a frig's and when you throw three level 6 caps on one target it is like having 10-15 LRFs focusing the poor soul. But you're not gonna have too many packs of high level caps roaming about.

Still, the whole point was that Power Surge's DPS bonus is A LAUGH. The ability is good for the shield regen, good for almost doubling the DS' effectiveness. But the DPS is nowhere near awesome. Nanos DPS is awesome. Rad bomb's DPS is awesome. PS' bonus damage is not. It exists and you will be killing frigates a little faster, but if anyone tells me that PS' 6-7 DPS bonus against high-armor targets on top levels is awesome in its own right, I'm gonna laugh.

@Arthanis: I say take off the interrupt and make the mitigation kill a buff so that it reduces it for a set time.  Also, don't make it ignore shields...  But if you really feel like 3.0 AM/s is needed, then I'll compromise on 60 AM.

@N3: I'm assuming you are referring to its frontal weapons only...

I know, but if you really wanted to be accurate with it you would have the following buffs:

1. It would deal very little damage to shields but would deal damage to hull based upon the distance travelled within the ship.

2. It would penetrate with each ship taking less and less damage per distance travelled.

3. Mitigation would be reduced slightly due to a hole that was just punched in your shield.

4. The ship would suffer from a DoT due to the hole through the ship and how it likely hit some sort of criitcal system, not to mention the air draining from the decks affected.

5. Anything the ship was doing at the time would be halted.

 

But we aren't going for realism.  If we were we would have it deal 100 damage to shields and then standard damage straight to hull with a mitigation debuff and a DoT.

 

I just want it to be a shield breaker so that other ships can take advantage of the debuff.  Otherwise, the Kol is just something that does very little for its surrounding frigates.