It is mine copy-pasted post from general balance topic, because that thread is dominated by many other balance problems, IMO making dedicated thread for caps is good idea.
1. I am going to edit first post after reading feedback
2. Thread purpose is simple: to give as accurate balance suggestions as possible
Global changes:- Damage taken by Caps from ANTI-MEDIUM (LRF) reduced to 50% (from 75%)- Damage taken by LIGHT ARMOR (LRF) from COMPOSITE (HC) increased to 200% (from 150%)- Damage taken by LIGHT ARMOR (LRF) from CAPITAL (Caps) increased to 100% (from 75%)- Shield regeneration rate on all caps increased to 4/sec (from 3/sec)- Hull repair rate on all caps increased to 2/sec (from 1.5/sec)- Capships Max trainable level increased to 4 (from 3)- Capships Max trainable level after upgrade increased to 5 (from 4)- Capships Max level trainable by Advent Mass Transcendence increased to 5 (from 4)Capital Battleships:Kol Battleship:- Health increased to 3300 (+300, from 3000)- Shields increased to 1450 (+200, from 1250)- Beam DPS increased to 14.0 (from 9.0)- Laser DPS increased to 13.25 (from 8.25)- Armor increased to 6 (from 5)- Railguns: Antimatter cost decreased to 60 (from 75)- Railguns: Cooldown increased to 20 (from 6)- Railguns: No longer slow target- Railguns: Now reduce target max mitigation by 5%/10%/15% for 10 seconds- Railguns: Damage changed to 300/600/900 (from 325/650/975)- Finest Hour: Duration increased to 90 (from 60)Radiance Battleship:- Health increased to 2400 (+200, from 2200)- Shields increased to 2050 (+300, from 1750)- Beam DPS increased to 20.0 (from 15.0)- Plasma DPS increased to 15.0 (from 10.0)- Armor increased to 5.5 (from 4.5)- Animosity: affected ships now are not controllable by their owner- Animosity: Now give Radiance 1%/2%/3% bonus to shield mitigation- Animosity: Duration reduced to 15 (from 20)Kortul Devastator:- Health increased to 2900 (+250, from 2650)- Shields increased to 1675 (+250, from 1425)- Wave DPS increased to 17.0 (from 12.0)- Phase Missiles DPS increased to 10.8 (from 5.8)- Armor increased to 6 (from 5)- Jam Weapons: Affected strikecrafts get 1/2/3 damage/second in addition to already existing effects- Volatile Nanites: Area Radius increased to 4000 (from 2000)- Volatile Nanites: Damage on death area radius increased to 2000 (from 1000)- Volatile Nanites: Area damage on ship explosion increased to 200 (from 150)Capital Support:Dunov Battlecruiser:- Health increased to 3000 (+200, from 2800)- Shields increased to 1225 (+100, from 1125)- Autocannons DPS increased to 11.0 (from 6.0)- Missile DPS increased to 11.0 (from 6.0)- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)- Shield restore: Restoration changed to 350/550/750 (from 250/500/750)- Magnetize: Number of affected SC increased to 12/18/24 (from 8/12/16)- Magnetize: SC collision damage increased to 30 (from 25)- Magnetize: Range increased to 7500 (from 5000)- Magnetize: Duration changed to 10s/15s/20s or 12/18/24 SC killed (from 10s/12.5s/15s or 8/12/16 SC killed)- EMP Charge: Antimatter cost changed to 90/85/80 (from 100/90/80)- EMP Charge: Range increased to 5500 (from 4500)- EMP Charge: Area Radius increased to 3000/3500/4000 (from 2500/3000/3500)Rapture Battlecruiser:- Health increased to 2200 (+100, from 2100)- Shields increased to 1825 (+200, from 1625)- Laser DPS increased to 16.0 (from 11.0)- Beam DPS increased to 14.0 (from 9.0)- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)- Vertigo: Range increased to 6000 (from 4500)- Vertigo: Area Radius increased to 2500/3000/3500 (from 2000/2500/3000)- Domination: Antimatter Cost reduced to 75 (from 150)Antorak Marauder:- Health increased to 2675 (+150, from 2525)- Shields increased to 1375 (+150, from 1225)- Pulse Beam DPS increased to 17.0 (from 12.0)- Phase Missiles DPS increased to 15.0 (from 10.0)- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)- Distort Gravity: Gravity well range to Phase Jump reduction increased to 10%/20%/30% (from 8%/16%/24%)- Distort Gravity: Area Radius increased to 10000 (from 5000)- Distort Gravity: Duration increased to 45 (from 30)- Subversion: Now increase Strikecrafts Build time in entire Gravity well by 100%/200%/300%- Subversion: Ship build time increase increased to 100%/200%/300% (from 50%/100%/150%)- Subversion: Structure Build Time increase increased to 100%/200%/300% (from 50%/100%/150%) - Subversion: No longer stackable- Phase Out Hull: Antimatter cost increased to 60/60/60 (from 60/50/40)- Phase Out Hull: Cooldown time increased to 15/15/15 (from 5/3/2)- Phase Out Hull: Duration increased to 15/15/15 (from 6/8/10)- Phase Out Hull: Restored Shield on friendly ships increased to 200/400/600 (from 200/200/200)- Phase Out Hull: Damage to Enemy Ships increased to 200/400/600 (from 200/200/200)- Phase Out Hull: Now remove 75/150/225 Antimatter from enemy ship- Phase Out Hull: Now restore 75/150/225 Antimatter on friendly shipCapital Planet Killer:Marza Dreadnauth:- Incendiary Shells: damage rate increased to 5/10/15 (from 3/4.5/6)Revelation Battlecruiser:- Guidance: Antimatter cost reduced to 35 (from 75)- Guidance: cooldown time reduced to 10 (from 20)Vulkoras Desolator:- Phase Missiles Swarm: Number of targets increased to 8/12/16 (from 3/5/7)- Phase missiles Swarm: AM cost reduced to 75 (from 90)- Phase missiles Swarm: Range increased to 7500 (from 5000)Capital Carrier:Sova Carrier:- Heavy Strikecraft: damage buff increased to 15%/30%/45% (from 12%/24%/36%)- Heavy Strikecraft: armor buff increased to 4/5/6 (from 2/3.5/5)- Ship start with 2 SC squadrons, additional squadrons at lvl2, lvl3, lvl4, lvl6, lvl8 and lvl10Halycon Carrier:- Telekinetic Push: Cooldown increased to 20 (from 10)- Anima Tempest: Cooldown reduced to 90 (from 180)- Ship start with 2 SC squadrons, additional squadrons at lvl2, lvl3, lvl4, lvl6, lvl8 and lvl10Skinatra Carrier:- Microphasing Aura: Radius increased to 12000 (from 8000)- Replicate Forces: Create 8 frigates or 4 cruisers (instead of 3 frigates or 3 cruisers)- Repair Cloud reworked: Cooldown increased to 30 (from 12) AM cost increased to 120 (from 100/90/80) Duration 20s (from 10s) Now repair: * 3/6/9 hp/s on Strikecrafts * 15/30/45 hp/s on Frigates/Cruisers * 30/60/90 hp/s on Caps/Starbases/Buildings * (instead of 25/35/45 hp/s on Everything) Range increased to 4000/4500/5000 (from 3000/3500/4000)- Ship start with 2 SC squadrons, additional squadrons at lvl2, lvl3, lvl4, lvl6, lvl8 and lvl10Capital Colony Ship:Akkan Battleruiser:- Targeting Uplink: Now give 4%/6%/8% DPS increase in addition to already existing bonusesJarrasul Evacuator:- Colonize: Now add 100%/150%/200% population grow increasese for 240s/480s/720s in addition to already existing bonuses- Colonize: Now give 0/1/2 free levels of Civilian Infrastructure upgrade- Gravity Warhead: range increased to 7500 (from 6000)
Increasing HP is good reducing dmg from LARMs is good too but i dont see a point in incresing dmg of caps , especialy bb and i totaly fail to see the reason to give planet bombers so many SC. They wil benefit most form HP and armor boost, especialy marza.
The effect of changes proposed by u will be fleets made of caps and flaks and carriers
Also:
Revelation lv6 ability (mass histeria) should be lv1 ability with reduced effect and reach maximum power at lv3 skill
Desolator phase missile swarm shiould have increase number of targets insteed of reducing antimmater like 5/10/10 targets and increse dmg 200/400/600
It still wont be marza but will do the difference
Skintra Scramble bombers must be passive ability like all other carrer caps.
Its totaly unfair that hellcon can run all the time with full antimatter even without uppgrades while skintra is alwayz dry even with 4 antimatter upgrades.
Basicly scramble bombers is almost useless cause of antimatter
Comments -
I'm definitely for reducing damage from lrf. But do we really want to increase damage from lf?
No range increase on the Dunov EMP charge? Currently the range is too short to outrange repulse. And what about MindsEye's idea that it should be able to shield recharge itself (just like mothership does, just like marauder does)?
I'm not in favor of any additional strikecraft on non-carrier caps. I'm not in favor of adjusting lvl1 carrier caps squadrons down to 2.
I don't think desolator phase missle swarm uses "real" phase missles (at least I heard it doesn't). It either uses generic missles, or maybe crappy phase missles that don't upgrade with research. How about giving it real phase missles?
You do know that increasing HP for battleships may get you 6000 HP at level 3 and maximum HP research? Good luck killing that when LRF kills any LF trying to stop the bombing of your homeworld.
Slightly buffing the capital ships might be a good idea. I don't see why the damage done by LRFs should be decreased but don't have a problem with a damage increase to capital ships from LFs.
I just looked over the changes to some of the Advent caps.
The Revelation capital ship needs to be almost completely reworked other than its Level 6 ability and the ability that lets you look at other gravity wells. Reverie is OK but not all that amazing, so Guidance needs to be changed to something else--perhaps an ability similar to the Marza's planet bombing ability. I almost never see anyone build this ship in a serious, competitive game unless the game has already been decided and they are just messing around, spamming out caps and going through the motions.
I don't understand the modification to Animosity. Why make it another form of Vertigo or was that supposed to be in addition to the way Animosity already workds (so that people could still do Animosity-Vengeance combos)?
I do agree that the Jarrasul Evacuator could use a colonization boost. Giving it a population increase boost to colonization might be a good idea since it has the weakest colonization ability of the three races.
Yes bad change to animosty.It just needs to actually work like its suppose to.A simple move order cancels it out.Thats just gay for a cap ability.
I dont think carriers need a buff and your sc are unbalanced.The haly should start with one more squad then the others for them to be equal.
Animose: Affected units are not controllable (prevoius buff removed) - what do you think?
Carriers buff: I am suggesting buffing only weakest carriers abilities. After Battlecruisers and LF buff it won't hurt.
Phase missiles swarm: What about Qu4r idea?
Unkillable battlecruisers: When enemy have all health upgrades, lvl3 battlecuser and LRF fleet, you already have access to HC which counter both (Of course I am going to suggest HC buff vs LRF too)
disagree with any changes to the SC distrubution, I feel that the Devs finally got that set right
as to the scrambles bombers I say no to making it passive, in the DS mod we increased the overall anti-matter that ships get due to research and when that happens the Scramble bombers work great. So I say decrease the AM cost and increase (slightly) the time that each bomber exist to better fulfill what the devs were intending. Otherwise it would just be the Vasari version of Anima Adept ability. I also feel that the Sova is just fine as it is and that the Anima tempest should remain at 180 cooldown, it is after all a level 6 ability so in a sense it should be a game changer , as should all Lvl 6 abilities.
as to the targeting uplink I say no for when used right it can have some fantastic results (defense with railguns and offensive with LRFs) so the dps would make it OP
Global:
Nay (Sure, but not so severe)
Nay
Yay
Battleships:
Yay hull/shield/DPS
Nay armor/abilities (I could see changes to all the ones suggested but Disruptive Strikes, but not that level of buffs)
Support:
Yay DPS/armor/EMP interrupt/Subversion steal
Nay else
Seige:
Nay (I go with 2 SC, and those abilities could use buffs, but not that much.)
Carriers:
Colonizers:
Nay (Jarrasul could use something, but different then that.)
Bloody forums.
Your idea for changing the Kol's GRG simply bysteps the real problem. GRG is utterly useless, because it deals little damage for high antimatter. By simply decreasing antimatter and increasing cooldown, GRG is still extremely weak, and just cheaper to use. And after a single GRG anyways, the damage dealt is too low to warrant another use. It really needs a substantial damage boost to be anywhere a decent ability.
EMP Charge sounds too powerful by disabling all weapons. Instead, a flat damage and range increase would make this a bit better.
Current SC distribution is also completely fine. If the Marza got extra squadrons, we'd possibly revert back to single-Marza rushes all the time. The extra DPS a squadron gives is signifigant.
Subversion seems too much like Embargo, too.
I'm against the damage boosts, via armor type, or at least at your current values. I do however support you idea for increasing regen. Anyways, on to the rest of the stuff...
Kol Battleship:Health/DPS/Armor: Sure, it is supposed to be a tank.
No to SC on this or anything else. I think they finally got it right.
GRG: No. You are sidestepping the problem. Boost its power so you can use it mid-game and still get good results. Make it knock down mitigation or something so you could punch through enemy shields. Honestly, if that doesn't happen in the actual game or GRG doesn't get some super damage boost or a special ability, I'm sticking this on in my mod.
FB: No. Give it a bigger range or reduce it to say 75 AM. Don't make it twice as powerful.
Radiance Battleship:Health: Maybe a bit..
DPS: Sure.
Animosity: I'm okay with that, though it just doesn't feel right... Maybe something else, but idk... Ani needs something...
Kortul Devastator:Health/DPS: Sure.
Jam Weapons: That would be interesting, but you would need to change the name to something else... Overload Weapons? I don't know if this would even be good..Capital Support:Dunov Battlecruiser:AgreeRapture Battlecruiser:Domination should stay the same.Antorak Marauder:No to Health/DPS upgrades.
Yes to DG.
Capital Planet Killer:Marza Dreadnauth:Yes to incendiary shells buff.Revelation Battlecruiser:No to SC, yes to Guidance.Vulkoras Desolator:No.
Capital Carrier:Sova Carrier:No.Halycon Carrier:No.Skinatra Carrier:Redux SB's cooldown and AM cost slightly, but that's it.
Capital Colony Ship:Akkan Battleruiser:- Targeting Uplink: Maybe.. Idk... I don't ever use it...Jarrasul Evacuator:- Colonize: Sure.. It needs a boost...
GRG: ATM they are NEVER used because AF is far more important skill to kol and there is not enough AM to support both abilities. After my change GRG cost/time is reduced by 80% (from 75AM/6s to 30AM/12s=15AM/6s) which is turning this ability to something close to passive ability (especially at higher levels) which mean 27/54/81 DPS buff almost all time (lvl1 Kol front weapons DPS even after my buff is still ~30DPS only) - it is far from being useless.
SC number changes: Purpose is simple: to give players more freedom during choosing their caps. Carriers are still superior by far in terms of SC, but other caps start with 1SC and get 3 at 10lvl (so they will rerely get more then 2 SC...). Sorry, I don't see any balance problems here. Lvl1 Carrierscaps SC decrease to 2 will affect early rush strategy only (which is op in many matchups), everything elese stay unchanged (and I gave carriercaps some nice buffs too)
I know you are helping with the AM issue, but I think the devs were more interested in making it a nuke attack than anything else. Anti-structure mainly. So the real problem IMO is that it can't do anything to shields due to mitigation. I see two options: increase DPS or give it an ability.
Another issue is that the Kol, unlike the other battleships doesn't have a passive. AF is an always-on which means that it constantly drains AM. So if you nerfed it only to make it passive, I believe you would make the Kol far better as it would have the AM to devote to GRG (or at least a buffed version of it).
Honestly, I think they finally got SC numbers right. Carriers should have more right out of the gate than anyone else. I know you are trying to balance things, but this isn't the way to do it.
If developers wanted to turn GRG to something nuke-like, they could give this ability something really ass-kicking like shield ignoring, AoE or just huge damage boost. Because GRG after many patches don't have ANY of these skills, I bet it's main purpose is giving Kol constant DPS buff (something similar in terms of combat usefullness to Kortuls DPS increase aspect of power surge), thats why I suggest making this DPS buff much less expensive to use (and finally turning it to constant DPS buff). Total abilities reworking are IMO not good solution for 2-years old game.
SC: Carriers are not completely overshadowed by other caps in terms of DPS/HP/SH/Abilities, I see no reason of keping other caps completely overshadowed by carriers in terms of SC. After these small SC numbers rebalances Carriers are superior in terms of SC by far, but other Caps can use fair amounts of SC too. For example after may changes Battlecruisers in terms of pure power are superior too, but cariers still do fair damage and have relatively good HP/SH, it is just mirror situation. Caps ARE NOT extremely specialized, each of them is combination of versatility and slight specialization in one job. You are not forced to get planet killer to bombard planet, you are not forced to build support cap to support your fleet by some abilities, you are not forced to build battlecruiser to kill one frigate. Why are you supossed to be forced to get cariercap to get access to just near-minimum amount of SC? Carriers will be still te most specialized caps by far... so where is the problem? You afraid invasion of OMGWTFOP 10lvl non-carriers using their OMGWTFOP 3 squads?
It's just stupid to give other caps more sc to balance them against carrier caps. If other caps should be balanced more against carrier caps, the solution is conceptually simple: improve their innate abilities to the point to which they are competitive with carrier caps, not turn them into lesser forms of carrier caps.
Nobody thinks the dunov emp blast should have more range?
forums go boom
yes the EMP blast should have a longer range, not sure about the affecting the DPS though
Small update:
- HC vs LRF (HC do 33% more damage to LRF)
- Animosity (no longer change hit chance, now give small bonus to shield mitigation and make affected units not controllable)
- EMP Charge (range increase instead of paralyzing weapons)
- Evacuator colonize (further buff)
- Phase missiles swarm (damage and targets increase instead of AM cost decrease)
SC: My change affect lvl10 caps almost excusively. How ofted do you see 10 lvl caps? 1 per game? Purpose of this change is not reworking carrier-noncarrier balance, its purpose is giving more optons while he is choosing his caps. It will not affect gameplay much in 90% cases, but is good change for remaining 10%.
I am mainly a vasari player and know them thoroughly, so I will point out stuff mainly about them. If I cut something out, then I have no thoughts about it
I would add a ~50% radius increase for volatile nanites (initial and blast). Nanites are "MEH".Capital Support:Antorak Marauder:- Subversion: Now reduces planet income and resources production by 10%/15%/20% in addition to already existing effects <- 15%/30%/45% I say. You aren't exactly going to spam this ship, so when one hits you with a level 3 subversion, it should hurt. Might consider increasing AM cost to 120-150ish so that this ship can't just bypass a starbase and never notice the AM pool hit on his subversion-spam-tour.I would add some boost to POH, so that the ship has any combat use (you don't magically produce level-6 marauders, you have to build them and level them; right now it's a tradeoff between antorak and one of 4 infinitely more useful ships). For example, a 15/30/45 second shield mitigation nerf (~5-10%). Or, 5% but stackable. POH, POH, POH and then it wakes up with -15% shield mitigation for the next 20 seconds. Capital Planet Killer:Marza Dreadnought:- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 1) <- this should be a glass cannon. Extra SC don't fit.Revelation Battlecruiser:- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 2) <- as aboveVulkoras Desolator:- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 1) <- as above
- Phase Missiles Swarm: Number of targets increased to 6/9/12 (from 3/5/7) <- YES!- Phase missiles Swarm: Damage increased to 250/500/750 (from 200/400/600) <- aye. That or reduce AM cost to 75.Capital Carrier:Skirantra Carrier:- Scramble Bombers: Antimatter cost reduced to 40/30/20 (from 50/40/30) <- aye- Scramble Bombers: Spawned bombers get 25% increased chance to dodge for 120s <- hmm. Too weird. I'd rather all durations (cooldown, bomber lifespan) halved.- Microphasing Aura: Radius increased to 12000 (from 8000) <- okay- Replicate Forces: Create 8 frigates or 4 cruisers (instead of 3 frigates or 3 cruisers) <- okayCapital Colony Ship:Akkan Battleruiser:- Targeting Uplink: Now give 5%/10%/15% DPS increase in addition to already existing bonuses <- a PASSIVE AOE 15% damage buff for EVERYBODY? OUCH! Too much! 3%/5%/7% would be fine.Jarrasul Evacuator:- Colonize: Now add 100%/150%/200% population grow increasese for 240/480/720s in addition to already existing bonuses <- Mixed feelings here. Might be a good idea.- Colonize: Now give 1/2/3 free levels of Civilian Infrastructure upgrade <- Idea ok, but severely OP. Vasari would never pay underdevelopment costs. This is thousands of free credits here, per planet. OPOPOP. It could, however, be:level 1 - nothing extralevel 2 - one civilian upgradelevel 3 - one civilian upgrade, one emergency facilities upgrade, extra 100 planet health upon colonization.
Wow, N3Rull, well said. I agree with you practically across the board. I especially like your Egg suggested colonize fix. Now if only the devs listen...
More SC are not the solution for sure. But if a cap buff really is needed across the board (LRM's totally kill caps mid-to-late game), then I guess an armor or hp buff is OK. Damage buffs to caps are absolutely useless mid-to-late game. The main problem is that when someone turns their 50 illums on your cap, you have to get him out of there with no shield damage taken at all. Caps need to be tough enough to survive a fight, or you might as well not have them. It's no wonder there's no level 10 caps - they die too easily, or else you have to keep them out of the fight, and thus they never get XP.
Also, something to throw into the fray: What about flak for caps? There was a thread about this a year or more ago, but nothing ever happened.
as to this in the Distant Stars Mod we played with this a little. the effect was minimal against fighters (we could only put them on the carrier caps as well, the others were taken up with three different weapon types each). We played with the numbers overtime but would either get an OP cap ship (anti-fighter gun was increased) due to the fact that the same weapons could target regular ships, or be of minimal effect (unless you built the max 32 (mod based) cap carriers). We left it in the mod but there really is not much use for it on caps
Increased number of SC on non-carrierCaps is not enough to mass bombers effectively, but is enough to support flaks protecting Caps with same fighters against bombers attack.
except that is the vunerability with the siege caps, the devs put that in there for a reason, thats the biggest reason why I say no to an increase of SC for siege capsexcerpt form manual on Vulkoras:Few ships in the galaxy can match the destructive potential of the Vulkoras. Both enemy forces andplanets alike quickly fall before its banks of heavy phase missile launchers and deployable siegebatteries. Such offensive power comes at a price, however—the Vulkoras relies on supporting ships todeal with specific threats like strikecraft more so than any other Vasari capital ship.
as to the others, its too straight across, the battleships (which by the way the Radiance already gets three, starting at lvl 2) is more of a race variation effect. The carriers are just about right as they are now.
Well... I don't see "destructive potential" of Vulkoras... This ship is average. And don't have any specific anti-fighter weapon. SC increase will not hurt lore.
Carriers are almost fine the way the are - I suggest only minor rebalances to them.
Other Caps - are you sure this extra SC at level 10 will break game balance? If yes, I will remove this buff. IMO it is fixing many minor balance problems, like extreme non-carrier caps vulnerability to Bombers (at game stage before getting access to carier cruisers) or limited tactical options if enemy choose dual carrier/ carrier+support.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
