Okay, you are guaranteed to get dual halcyon rushed in any online multiplayer game. How do you beat it? I don't want theorycraft, and I also don't want answers from SP people. I want non-theorycraft answers from MP people who actually beat dual halcyon on a regular basis.
Please give your answers for: Vasari and TEC.
Thanks.
Well, this is just early game, so I doubt you would need more than two.. Maybe three, but I find it unlikely... And yes, if you have a skirantra, it is going to be a wonderful addition.
a) lots of flak to protect
lots of lrm to hurt the halcyons hard
c) one or two of your race's carriers or Progenitor and asap Guardian
Well, that's all well and good except:
1. He has disciples that will shred your flak.
2. He has Seekers to shred your Assailants. Also, you hurt something badly or hit something hard. Take your pick...
3. He is playing as Vasari, so he has neither of those ships.
I'm going to have to side with Kharma on this one. His LF will get destroyed by the illums even with repair bays there because with good placement each illum hits 2-3 skirms. A good advent player will take those bombers and wreck the repair bays first before messing with his fleet, though because there was no repair bays to mess with, they were able to fight the egg; I'm not saying this would have made any difference, but it might have helped. The other fleet is disciples and scouts (forgot their name), so the disciples kill any flak brought into the fight (which weren't used anyway), and the scouts will kill the assiliants. 7 fleet supply for the skirms versus the 4 for disciples, 3 fleet supply for the vasari scouts versus 2 for advent; the enemy will invariably have a larger fleet due to numbers. Also, 15 health per second from a repair bay is NOTHING with the shots from the illums, I think the only thing that MIGHT have worked would be the combination of regeneration and repair bays, but this still doesn't solve the problem of the 2 halycons that have either been bombing his asteroid and taking it out, or even adding their abilites to the fight.
Either way you look at it, I don't think that Kharma stands a chance in this fight.
The only thing I can see even making this fight go for the vasari is if he gets his high level support ships into the fight, but due to it being early in the game, he won't have them.
We figured out earlier that you can use a Skirantra/Kortul combo you can defeat the Halcyons, but I am simply saying that not using repair bays is stupid. They will help. And Kleenex, you seem to forget that mitigation more than doubles the effect. They will help. Also, no Advent player can rush Halcyons and Illuminators without feed quickly unless he has zero economy.
Though even so, while possible, there is no option that is an obvious counter. In my mod however, I am trying to address by the addition of a new ship, Kramrock which has two abilities that kill enemy DPS. One via cooldowns which can affect up to 10 ships, and one via a direct DPS redux.
However, these are not entirely needed. Halcyons can be countered. It may be difficult, but it can be done.
Volt, I think superkleenex is commenting less on the original post, and more on the mini-story I related just above with the dual halcyons, seeker/discple, then illums (the story where you said I should have had repair). Yeah, we figured a skirantra, if micro'd out the ying yang, might could beat a halcyon, but he is commenting on the entire ball of wax (seeker/disciple/dual halcyon/illums). I don't think vasari can beat that.
The best I've done is set up a starbase, but that just boxes me in, and he expands around me and comes back with bombers.
Volt - question: do you beat advent rush regularly online as vasari? I just want to know how much of your comments are theorycraft, and how much stems from actual experience beating this rush online as vasari.
Since I've switched to playing TEC (and I swear to you, I have absolutely no idea how to play TEC), my job against this rush is tremendously easier. The other day I was in suicide spot with Howthe? on one side and another pro on the other. They both chose Advent, and they both rushed me. I actually had beaten back Howthe? completely, and didn't have to abandon home planet until the other Advent came calling from the other side. Point being, I don't even know how to play TEC but have a much easier time dealing with an Advent rush than as vasari.
Not that much... I micro on that level all the time and it doesn't take that much effort. Though yes, the Vasari are going to lose that battle unless you do something he can't such as repair bays. Since Seekers, Disciples, and Illums are clearly OP (and Halcyons are a bit, but at least they are tolerable), you can expect them to be nerfed/fixed (in case of Illum) in the next patch. Also, the Skirmisher may receive a buff which ought to help you out tremendously. So, for now, it is difficult to defeat one (though apparently possible according to Zombie), but impossible versus two in a suicide position.
Well, as I've said before, I don't play online multiplayer... I do however do preliminary testing of my ideas by playing against myself (switching back and forth between sides every minute or so...), but I am forced to request other players to do secondary tests. This summer when I have more time I would begin actual MP, but for now I unfortunately play SP..
And I am not arguing about that one bit. The TEC start off stronger than the Vasari. Now, that said, if the Vasari survive till late game, they ought to be able to win, but its holding out. That is the problem with the current system for online MP.. Vasari take too long to be good and as such don't stand a chance on the cramped maps on MP.
So... I played a 4p locked FFA with random race (ended up Vasari) and was immediatly rushed by the nearby advent player with dual halcyon's. I did survive his initial attacks with my Egg, repair bays, turrents(upgraded), Starbase and fighter/health upgrades and scared him away. I even managed to get a comparable fleet built of carriers and assailants and some sentinals due to aggressive control of neutral extractors. Problem is I don't play Vasari and did not do a good job fighting his advent fleet when away from my repair bays and starbase.
Would mass vasari sentinals have worked better against a heavy illum with dual halcyon fleet. Assailants are good at hitting the halcyons but it seemed when I tried to engage the Illums it just didn't have that big an impact.
Does the charged damage upgrade help any with assailants or sentinals? Again, had I massed Sentinals and went bombers against his cap ships it seems I could have done better in theory. Unfortunately, my Assailants just look like popcorn against illums IMO.
LOL. First question. who told you there would ever be another patch? Second question. Even if there is, who told you these things would be nerfed?
If you were able to get all of that up, doesn't sounds like much of a rush. I guess the guy took his time. When Howthe? rushed me the other day, his Halyon was at my HW before my scout was at his (YES I SCOUTED CORRECTLY).
Sentinals at least last longer than assailants because they are tough. The problem is, you simply can't churn out the masses of sentinals needed in time. At minimum you will need twice as many sentinals as he has illums to give him any pause. If he has 40 illums you'll need 80 sentinals (that's a lot). You have to build them by the tonnage, they seem to take forever to build, take a lot of supply/cost, etc. You'll never have enough sentinals in a rush situation - forget about that. Even worse, he sees you preparing sentinals, he may not even go illums. He may just keep mashing the "build disciple" button.
Do NOT build assailants to counter advent. For one thing, illums just shred assailants. For another thing, he could just seeker you to death.
Helps with assailants, but you can't tech that in a rush situation - impossible. Works with sentinals ONLY AGAINST STRIKECRAFT, so it won't help you there vs. illums or anything else.
Assailants totally suck against illums, big-time. Actually, these days I'm starting to think assailants suck period. When I was still playing vasari, I had totally quit using them at all. I pushed SB's, and tried to back them up with support (flak, carriers, etc).
Well, it wasn't quite that easy and it was a rush. His jump path was HW(His)->Asteroid->Asteroid->Ice->HW(Mine) which was the immediate path he followed. I was hoping since it was a FFA he would focus on colonize other than a risky first strike. I split his frigates with him trying to chase my egg as I sent it up to his homeworld as he tried invading my HW. When he hit my HW I only had a couple of repair bays and turrents(upgraded) and then started building my Starbase. He destroyed my repair bays and constructors but my starbase was able to construct. My first upgrade was fighters followed by health. I also kept building repair bays which distracted his bombers when the constructors regenerated. So he either was bombing my Starbase and letting the repair bays rebuild or had to go after them which left the starbase to regenerate. He was worried to pull in his halcyons to shirk off my fighters because his passive regeneration was disabled. by the time he brought his split fleet down due to my Egg distracting him my starbase had some decent upgrades and I was sending out a few assailants to further damage his halcyons and trying to nano his halcyon with my egg. He had to pull them out to put them in repair bays. I immediatly built more repair bays and turrents when he did this and eventually built a skirantra and some carriers because I was able to keep control of several neutrals.
My questions was more about after surviving the halcyon rush. For instance, having the neutrals was like being fed. However, assailants obviously don't work very well. I may have very well been able to build twice as many sentinals as him at this point because he sacrificed his econ to rush me and I had a resource advantage. So, it sounds like if I get caught this way again I'll need to go heavy flak/carriers initially.
It's definitely a difficult nut to crack. I beat my head against it many times. If you can get an SB up and keep it up as you apparently did (I never could - halcyon bombers raped), then I think mass flak would be your best bet. Usually not good in the face of mass disciples, but your SB puts the hurt on those disciples if you make sure to keep your flak near it, and they are probably your best bet against the inevitable illums.
Second thing to try might be transporters, if he isn't building any flak. Even if he is, if you put the fighers on local area near your sb, his flak can't touch them, and your sb is protected from bombers.
Third thing to try might be match him in capships - I guess skirantra. If it were a single halcyon you might could go kortul, but with dual halcyons, kortuls would probably die quick to the bombers.
You could try try fast-teching to enforcers, but the thing is, 1) illums actually beat enforcers, 2) bombers from carriers counter enforcers, 3) disciples are too good against enforcers, and 4) everything I just said is at a much lower tier than enforcers. The reason I mention it though is, yesteday I was somewhat rushed by dual halcyons, and I had fast teched to kodiacs as TEC. Yeah, his bombers were taking them out, but I had just enough of them (plus more pumping) that I was putting the serious hurt on his halcyons. One fled and I chased and killed it, then I came back and killed the other one. Thing is though, I could tell this wasn't a pro advent player - his rush was a little lacking, and so was his technique. Not sure this would have been viable with vasari - enforcers suck.
Let us know what you come up with.
@Zombie: I would like to know what you come up with as well...
@Agent: Well, in both cases, it is logic. The devs aren't going to leave a bug there that they know is killing gameplay. And last patch, they listened and did most of the things in the PSCF. And seeing as how things such as Seekers/Disciples are in there, I find it likely that they will. That is why I said you should expect them. I did not say they would happen, but I do find it very likely.
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