Okay, you are guaranteed to get dual halcyon rushed in any online multiplayer game. How do you beat it? I don't want theorycraft, and I also don't want answers from SP people. I want non-theorycraft answers from MP people who actually beat dual halcyon on a regular basis.
Please give your answers for: Vasari and TEC.
Thanks.
So you used one Sova - without backup - and expect it to beat two Halcyons? If I'm reading this correct, the problem is your expectations. You can't expect one carrier cap to beat two carrier caps. As I already said, two Halcyons is enough that they can build enough fighters to counter your fighters, and still have bombers left over to kill your cap. You need other units in backup. Cobalts, hoshikos, LRM's, flaks, any of the above would have an enormous impact here. All you need to do is back up the Sova with appropriate units. He's going to have sunk a lot of cash into those capital ships and you will have the unit number advantage. Also, if this is your world you're defending, you have NO EXCUSE for not having repair bays, and therefor NO EXCUSE for losing capital ships.
Once again, I reiterate that if this rush is coming at the very start of the game, and he somehow has a fleet that's just as large as your's despite having sunk his money into capital ships, he is being fed. Don't expect to beat someone who is receiving feed.
As far as Dunovs go, I've been unimpressed with magnetize. It will whittle down those squads quite a bit, but not fast enough or reliably enough to compensate for the shortcomings of the Dunov.
KL3MZ is pretty much giving you the same strategy I am: build units and hit the Halcyons hard. I don't think massing LRF is that simple; the Advent still has the luxury of scout-spam without labs, so you may need to mix in other unit types. Of course, anything that isn't countered by scouts is either matched or beaten by a swarm of disciples, so you need to know what units the Advent has and tailor your own army accordingly. Remember, you should have the tech and numbers advantage here because he has invested in capital ships.
Now, as for repair bays, I find that many Advent dual-cappers can and often do bring these out early. You need one lab to get the crew upgrade anyways, and if you make it a military lab you're only one lab away from repair bays anyways. Still expensive, but if you need repair bays they are reasonably accessible.
I have a hard time understanding the reluctance to use repair bays and a support fleet as well. Even having a small overlapping group of repair bays to slide your capital ship around and then re-engaging it in the battle provides a superior tactical advantage. The repair bays don't need to sit right next to where the battle is happening.
the combat square that ought to be noticed that will arise in this instance is Flak>Fighters>LRF>LF>Flak
You have to counter some part of that. The easiest is his fighters with JW on the Kortul or Phasic Traps on hangars. That means he will bring in scouts to do their job. From there, you need something to kill them. My solution was use those fighters that are no longer busy dueling their SC. If someone else can come up with another direct solution, I'd like to hear it...
I don't think I have seen anyone state this but your first starbase upgrade should probably be strikecraft if you are being rushed by carrier caps. After that it depends on what they are bringing to the party. If you are being fed, I would think fleet mixed with repair bays. If you aren't being fed, delay tactics might be in order. If you went with a colonizer cap it might be time to migrate and continue to delay/occupy the enemy(s). This can still provide a tactical advantage as their capital ships are engaged on your homeworld. The other benefit is it may allow your team to setup a better eco advantage while they are spending time/resources trying to take out the suicide position. You may need to scrap the capital ship factory to make room for a 3rd mil lab. Tec will of course need a fourth slot somewhere if they want to get auxilary government running. Getting auxilary government, etc up is also useful for keeping the enemy engaged. It probably won't hold forever unless you get some feed but it's worth trying as much as you can to keep them occupied IMO.
You run a bit of a problem there, because I didn't just have two Halcyons (remember, this was a fed rush), but also a swarm of disciples and seekers backing it up. I eventually did rush the starbase with disciples and killed it. Going for hanger upgrades first would have just left him vulnerable to TK push while my disciples charged him. On the other hand, the weapons upgrade didn't do much help for him either as I kited until my bombers had whittled him away.
I personally think the most important thing is to have repair bays set up and after that the first health upgrade for your starbase. No matter what your opponent is doing, that health upgrade will buy you the necessary tim.
This is what he ended up doing, but I won my battle there faster than he anticipated. Since their suicide position was dying and their other front was slowly being pushed back, we called the game after I captured the homeworld.
This guy wasn't in the suicide position; he was on the front line with his back to the pocket. I was rushing him solo. Their team did have a suicide position, but that was a completely different player.
Well, I just tested my above idea (not that anyone seems to be taking any note at all of it...) by playing against myself (I switched back and forth until the AI did what I would have done for the Advent.
I haven't done a test with fleets, but with capitals alone, I sent the Kortul in to attack the Halcyons. I then proceeded to stick my Skirantra behind it. These are the statistics of the ships I used:
-Vasari-
Skirantra: level one, Repair Cloud only
Kortul: level two, Disruptive Strikes and Jam Weapons.
-Advent-
Halo 1: level one, ADA only
Halo 2: level two, ADA and Telekinetic Push
I also had a Repair Platform and Hangar with Phasic Trap which I turned on and off periodically* to see the effect of each. The result* was that with Repair Platforms, both the Kortul and the Skirantra will survive while both Halcyons will die. Without repair platforms, the first Halcyon will die and the other will follow, but only after the death of the Kortul.*
Also, it should be noted that just before the death of the first Halcyon, the Skirantra levels up due to experience gained from killing enemy SC. I put this point in MPA. After the death of the first Halcyon, the second follows shortly as the Vasari gain air superiority. Upon the death of the second one, the Kortul levels up.
In other words, the Vasari win in a battle of caps alone. This seems to support my earlier belief from earlier that such a strategy would work. Low and behold it did, for this reason, I more strongly urge someone who plays online to give this a shot as there is now evidence supporting my theory.
*Disclaimer/Further Information:
Now, because I did alternate turning these things on and off, I am admitting that there could be some room for error, but I believe it to be small. Originally, I had everything on autocast. Eventually though, I started using the abilities individually to greater effect. After the first bit though, I deactivated the hangar. I left the Repair Platform online until about when the first Halcyon had 50% hull left. The following are points I would like to make clear so as to prevent over-excitement:
Now, the following points I would like to make clear to prevent underestimation:
Essentially, what it comes down to, is this was a preliminary test. It does show however, that by being on the defensive (aka using repair platforms), you can vastly increase chances of success. I would like to reiterate, that this is no longer just theorycraft. This now has evidence behind it, so I suggest putting this theory to a full test between two online players.
I guess my issue here is you need some fighter support. If I went colonizer cap I don't have it. If I do have repair bays then you probably focus fire your bombers on those and then hit the starbase while you kite the carriers. Probably ending up with the same result. However, if I go with fighters then I atleast the abiltiy to still take out your LF and scouts and keep your bombers potentially off my starbase and/or repair bays. If you want to use TK you will have to get fairly close to a starbase with high health and maybe some shield. Plus I could be adding health upgrades after the initial strikecraft upgrade. Plus isn't the first weapon upgrade meant to take down structures with short range attack abiltiy? Basically, I just don't see how you hold off bombers without some meaningful strikecraft support.
Now why he went starbase when he was on the aggressive front I don't know. He probably would have been better off with repair bays and a carrier cap himself and then probably a second carrier or Kortul. Was he being fed? Was their team simply outmatched? I've rushed vasari players with Advent before too and it's fairly easy to take them down if they aren't prepared for the rush.
I arrived in the gravity well just as the starbase completed. You only have enough money for one upgrade, and it will take some time before you can afford another. You have one repair bay operational. The first thing I do is kill your constructors so nothing more can be built. A swarm (about 20 or so) disciples is en-route to join the battle. One of my halcyons has telekinetic push, the other has energy amplification. What do you do?
You have the choice of hull upgrades, damage upgrades, or hanger upgrades. If you go for hanger upgrades, my disciples will arrive before you can get a second set of upgrades operational. I'll rush your starbase and kill it right there. If you go for weapons upgrade (as my opponent did), I will kite you until you're worn down, then go for the kill. You might complete hangers later (he did), but it will be too little too late. If you go for health, you might draw things out long enough to stack up enough upgrades to cut down my options. That's why I said health first.
There were two factors working in my favour. First, this was Vasari vs Advent at close proximity with no intervening planets. Secondly, I had feed and he did not. The way the map randomized, it was a massive Advent advantage to begin with. He could have gone dual-cap, but then he'd have been slammed by the disciple rush and would have been killed that way. If he'd gone for assailant spam, it would be my seeker reserves that would have done him in. To survive this, you need a starbase as Vasari. He didn't have feed, so he got a double-whammy.
The problem was primarily with their pockets. One of them was a beginner, the other was booming and not feeding. As a result, we made our push early and it was effectively a 5v3 because their pockets hadn't yet matured and started feeding. Our pocket (we only had one) sacrificed his eco to support our early push and it payed off. Ferdie had the biggest economy by a large margin, but his allies were dead. It was a simple case of their team playing the long-run and dying before that paid off.
The lesson I was imparting here is what to beware is the fed Advent rush. That's dangerous because the Halcyons will be backed up by a decisive swarm of frigates. You will need feed to compete with this because it really is a solid rush strategy.
Expect? No. I am simply replying to some dude's proposition that a sova can be parked next to two halcyons, backed by some cobalts, and win. I already tried it because I got halcyon rushed the other day, and the only thing I had nearby was a sova and some cobalts. I got creamed. I don't "expect," I'm just saying if some dude says that will win, I'm saying it won't.
Responding to what others have said:
starbases - I do NOT build starbases to fend off a halcyon rush because starbases drop like flies to those bombers (been there, done that as vasari).
phasic trap - I like the aiblity, I use it, I have won battles with it. It is good. The problem is, it requires 4 mil labs. YOU WILL NOT GET PHASIC TRAP IN A RUSH SITUATION.
kortul with jam weapons - already tried it with DUAL KORTULS, alternating jam weapons manually. The advent player told me not to try it before we even played, and he laughed as he killed both my kortuls. JAM WEAPONS SUCKS, it will not allow you to beat a halcyon rush.
Didn't get a chance to write this up last night because one of my girlfriends stopped by, but I tested 2 skirantras against 2 halcyons. Just like the disclaimer Volt_Cruelerz made, this was a test AGAINST MYSELF (just like my other test), so it has problems and will not play out like this in a real situation.
2 skirantras level 1, scramble bombers, all fighters
VS.
2 halcyons level 1, ADA, all bombers
All strikecraft were allowed to build to 100% before commencing the battle.
RESULT: The halcyons were winning, and 1 skirantra was down to 80 hull points. I thought it was dead. But then both skirantras leveled up at the exact same time, and I got repair cloud on both and alternated it, and shut down usage of scramble bombers at this point. It was at this point that I had just gotten air superiority (right after I saved my skirantra with repair cloud), so I was able to change a fighter squad on each ship to bombers. The skirantras won, and killed both halcyons.
RETROSPECT: This was a stacked test, because I put skirantra bombers on hold position next to the halcyons, but didn't put halcyon bombers on hold position next to the skirantra. Also, note that this was an all bomber configuration on the halcyons, vs. an initial scramble bombers for the skirantras. Other tests need to be done for different configurations.
CONLUSION: This will be much more micro-intensive for the vasari no matter what configuration you are employing.
Alone, yes, as JW doesn't solve the problem, but with fighters around to neutralize his, it is a critical buff.
Correct. After a given amount of time, any level 1 ship will level up due to SC kills.
Though the above test is supported by mine. I do suggest however getting RC first and then MPA. That helped my test quite a bit.
Though once again, it will be very micro-intensive, but I believe we now have a couple options for a Halcyon rush to be tested between two human players.
Okay, I retested my previous experiment and removed some variables. I removed the autocast of all abilities (minuse the ones the AI used such as TKP).
The results paralleled those of the first experiment, though they were more specific. Phasic Traps were deactivated and I did not use them at all. However, I discovered that to keep the Kortul alive, you need a minimum of 3-4 heals from a repair bay. In my experiment, these came as the Kortul ran into single-digits worth of hull points just as the first Halcyon was dying.
Essentially, without repair bays, the Kortul and first Halcyon will die nearly simultaneously. With them however, the Kortul will survive, and shortly after the death of the first Halcyon, Jam Weapons will kick in, knocking out the old SC long enough to die due to lack of carrier. After that, your SC quickly take down the enemy fighters and you gain air superiority.
The result is that the Vasari wins.
Further details:
Well, I can tell you what doesn't work.
Dual Vulkoras Desolators and Assailants/Navigators. This is the second time I have noticed a two Vulkoras opening. Are these good capital ships to open with? why?
Anyway, in a 4v4 Huge Single Star and I went Dual Halcyon LF/LRM fleet he went as above. He ran his Desolators leaving his home world unprotected and trying to set the fight on his roid with zero PJI. I sent enough illums up that he started spamming navigators/assailants and jumped to his homeworld. He brought in over 30 navigators to defeat my small fleet of illums and disciples. Not a good way to go. Halcyons leveled up quite nicely being fed navigators and the fighters chewed up the assailants. Feeling kinda vasari'ish I starbased his asteroid to take out the rest of his structures. Ya my team lost but it was still fun.
On the other team a Vasari player attacked a weak advent apponent with with a Skirantra and quick tech to carriers quickly jumping to the planet next to the advent player and starbasing that world. He was not prepared with only a colonizer and a few disciples at the time before teching to carriers/illums and a Halcyon after losing his colonizer.
I've only seen a dual-Desolator start once, in a 3v3. My ally did that on a nearby enemy which eliminated him quickly and essentially won the game (Another ally was in a stalemate with one enemy, and I was fighting off a dual-Sova rush). The dual-Desolators actually worked a lot better than it seems; they have pretty high DPS and is forward-firing, and they quickly destroyed the enemy HW.
I actually just got out of a game where my opponent (Z00MERS) hit me with a dual-desolator rush. A little dangerous, but I saw it coming and brought out a Halcyon (I lead Progen) and some illums. I drove him off and eventually chased those desolators into a PJI (I opened civic) and killed them. Still, very dangerous; it was tearing up my homeworld shockingly fast and if I hadn't been scouting like a hawk it would have been very deadly indeed.
Honestly, I thought the starbase/minelayer/overseer/carrier combo he had going later on was a lot more dangerous than the double-desolator lead. Don't ask me how that turned out, because the game mini'd at the moment of truth where we would fight over my homeworld in a climatic showdown to determine the entire outcome of the game.
Desolators are powerful ships early game, however like you said, carriers can trump them due to SC presence. Throw in a repair bay, and you ought to win. However, if you don't, their DPS and ridiculous siege damage make them dire threats to an undefended HW.
Dual Sovas, tested and confirmed. Missile batteries will tear up enemy halos and disciples, especially having 2 sovas to drop them, pump out cobalts along with that and you should be fine.
Vasari is much trickier. I have beaten back dual halos with a Skirantra and hangars (and eventually an Orky). Skirantra(s) and flak work pretty well too, the flak have a ton of hp, and the skirantra(s) heal them against disciples. In any case though with Vasari you will 90% of the time need an Orkulus either on your hw or his. Because if hes going dual halos, illums are far away, and an Orkulus is the only thing thats gonna bring down hoardes of seekers and disciples (and it does rather well if you get it up with a decent amount of hp)
Thanks. Honestly, I figured dual sovas would win if the halcyons wanted to sit in the same place and bomb the planet. Sovas are tough.
Halycons are not very good planet assault ships. Still they offer "space superiority" wich includes killing capships and yards or labs. Bombing a colony takes forever.
The Halycon has good shields but as a carrier its offensive capabilities are a bit mild.
All its power comes from the strikecraft. Obviously flak would be a good idea it seems. Whilst canceling out the power of strikecraft to a degree this unfortunately won't get rid of the problem: the carriers. Same goes for fighter hangar defence. You want to kill the carrier. Go bombers.
Interesting to point out is the fact that fighters work well vs frigates but only bombers are capable of effectively taking down cruisers, caps and structures. Its also noteworthy that advent bombers use energy beams (fighters don't), so only bombers would be enhanced by the amplify aura or the beam weapon upgrades (wich are so mandatory for Illums).
Mixing fighters and bombers would mean less firepower as well as loading fighters only makes it effective vs other strikecraft and frigates.
The Halycon can make up for being bomber loaded with its telecinetic push somewhat.
The best way to get rid of it is certainly not another cap. Its a carrier and it will run, playing its range game whilst you will be picked apart. Also mass scouts are not properly equiped for that armor class.
So we need something fast and powerful. Also it would be a good idea to go frigate because that forces the halycon to choose between two armor types and makes the fighter/bomber decision not that easy (i would still favour bombers because of the enhancements but they are certainly not the tool of choice vs frigate armor).
LRF seem to be an option. You should consider that LRF have the same max speed as caps. They have a better acceleration. But you also have to consider the gravity well effect on ship speed.
The answer is BA. Thats Cobalt for TEC or Ravastra for Vasari.
"What, that crap everbody skips?" - Yes, thats the problem and the reason for carrier effectiveness in multiplayer to begin with.
As TEC i would support the fleet with a Sova. Not because of the missile batterys but because of bomber strikecraft to put the hurt on the Halycon.
As Vasari i would go Skirantra. A devastator may offer sheer, brutal power but the Halycon will run. Also the repair cloud is a nice addition to the bombers it offers.
A few flaks might be a good idea as well as are hangars and repair bays... the usual stuff.
A last word on bombers: Vasari use phase missiles, TEC use missiles and Advent beams. Basically what your LRF will use. They will always share research, thats why i favour bombers over fighters. Early on there are reasons for going fighter because of frigates but as soon as you start your research on weapons there is really no excuse for having no bombers around.
It doesn't work that way. Strike craft of any type do not benefit from energy amplification. The Advent fighter does have energy-type weapons, by the way. With the exception of bombardment, all Advent weapons are energy-type.
More tests.
SYNOPSIS: Point blank map. Vasari NO CAPSHIP vs. Advent dual halcyon.
Vasari strat 1: single frig factory, mil lab -> assailants -> pump until fleet supply maxed out, build no more.Result: Halcyons win (fighter configuration).Retrospect: couldn't get enough assailants out in time.
Vasari strat 2: dual frig factories, mil lab -> assailants -> pump until fleet supply maxed out, build no more. Result: Halcyons win (fighter configuration).
Vasari strat 3: single frig factory, skirmishers -> pump until fleet supply maxed out, build no more. Result: Halcyons win (bomber configuration).
This happens to be the first person I saw start with dual-desolators in a 3v3 no eco spot map. I was between two Vasari players so I started Halcyon. He tried to make a quick hit on my homeworld which I was able to defend. And then tried to starbase the world next to my homeworld which didn't work either. Then he tried to turn it into a faint while the other Vasari next to me came in. I didn't get my PJI up in time to take out his desolators, but I did starbase/PJI/hanger support the choke point he tried taking before destroying the other Vas's homeworld who WAS trying to take advantage of the situation. Zoomers, however, did proceed up to the other advent player next to him though and took out his entire Illum fleet with the starbase/minelayer/Subvertersoverseer/carrier combo. Although he had to use the z-axis exploit to get his starbase maneuver to work on the advent starbase in that well. That player unhappily dropped from the game as a result.
We did manage to win the game, although barely. Zoomers and the other player left combined all their resources to build mass Kosturas. Luckily after the first strikes to my fleet the TEC player moved into Zoomers territory and started tearing down the kosturas. It actually might have worked in the end but they called it gg.
Edit - Incorrectly referenced overseer versus Subverter
On a side note with the Dual Halcyon, Dual Sova, etc.
I wonder how much different this game would be if Capital ships (excluding the colonizer) required research just like every other ship passed the scout/LF/colonizer ships. You could actually justify bigger/badder capital ships coming out mid to late game. I think the Star Trek mod is a good example of this.
From the first day the patch notes came out, I looked at desolators and thought "those are good ships, I will try them." It's a no brainer that they are good planet bombers. It's a strat anyone could come up with. Thing is, halcyons and sovas trump them, so in practice it never worked out for me (you either gotta go carrier cap yourself, or go all-out to defend against them).
I want to hear about the starbase/minelayer/overseer/carrier strat please (haven't seen it).
It's pretty nasty. Here's what I remember: You drop in your minelayer's, subverter and carriers for fighter coverage on the edge of the gravity well and draw them in with your starbase constructor. Once you draw their fleet in, especially heavy Illum, you lay the subverter trap and deploy your mines right on top of their fleet. You may or may not have the starbase up and constructing yet. The idea appears to be draw their fleet over to take out the pending starbase construction or a starbase you already had constructing. This obviously works without a starbase, but I'm assuming based on what I saw you will want the fire power from the starbase after construction as your fleet does not contain a lot of direct dps other than the carriers and capital ships.
I'll have to review the replay again tonight to see if I missed anything.
Edit - meant subverter not overseer
I don't understand. First off, what is the overseer trap? Overseers only heal other ships, or degrade phase jumping ships. Do you mean subverters?
Also, how do you lay mines right on top of their fleet? They'd either move away before the mines activated, or they would kill the mines before they became operational.
My guess is you mean subverters instead of overseers.
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