Just finished a game against a TEC on a small map. I was vasari. What's the best early answer for vasari to halcyons or sovas? Near as I can tell, skirantras, so I built 2.
Game starts. We both pick up a couple of roids, and meet in the middle at my asteroid. He attacked my asteroid with a single sova, backed by a couple of cobalts. Went straight for the roid, started bombing it. I already had my 2 skirantras there, so they attacked his sova. I had plenty of antimatter on both skirantras. I manually alternated repair on both of them, waiting for the optimal time each time to do it. Meanwhile, I was pumping assailants to counter his cobalts. I had about 1 assailant for each cobalt he had once the battle ended.
What happened?
His sova killed one of my caps, was well on the way to killing the other one, and the roid was almost bombed completely down before I said "screw this, if your single sova can own BOTH my caps and and take my roid with hardly a scratch, I ain't playing - you win" and pushed the quit button.
No, he did not have mobile repair at my roid (hoshikos), nor a repair station.
No, his sova was not high level, nor was it higher level than any of my caps.
1 sova > 2 skirantras. This is even with both skirantras having repair cloud, alternating it. Can anyone please offer me a rationale for this?
No, I don't believe the game should be balanced by unit. But given the current state of the game, I also see no reason why a single sova should significantly own TWO skirantras!
Yes I did read his post, and I said that I would test this out today. I kept my promise.
RESULTS ARE IN.
Point blank map was selected, TEC vs. Vasari, sova vs. kortul. In all tests, sova held all missle batteries and bombers in dock until Kortul was in striking distance, then missle batteries were put on autocast, bombers were let loose and put on hold position near the kortul.
Test1: Level1 Sova/missle platforms vs. Level1 Kortul/power surge. Sova wins.
Test2: Level1 Sova/missle platforms vs. Level2 Kortul/power surge/disruptive strikes. Kortul wins.
Test3: Level2 Sova/missle platforms/heavy strikecraft vs. Level2 Kortul/power surge/disruptive strikes... TIE.
Results of the last test were interesting. It was exceedingly close. I thought the sova was going to win, but power surge kicked in at the last moment and the kortul killed the sova with a few points of shield and hull remaining. HOWEVER, the residual bombers were able to kill the kortul before it managed to escape the grav well.
I will say I was wrong that a kortul couldn't stand up to a sova with bombers. A level 1 can't, but a level 2 can, just barely. I had quit playing vasari, but am willing to give them a new try with these results, using a kortul to counter a sova HOWEVER, I will say again that my main worry was always 2 sovas or two halcyons, not 1 (which is why I went dual skirantra in my original post). What should vasari counter with? 2 kortuls? It would seem that the bombers from 2 carrier caps would gang up on 1 of the kortuls and kill it. Worse, the missle platforms from 2 sovas could also gang up on a single kortul. Also, both kortuls would need to be promoted to level 2 to have a chance, while the carrier caps would likely need no such promotion. So I'm not sure there still isn't a balance issue, but I will say that the results with the kortul make things seem potentially much better than they were.
So what to deploy against dual carrier caps? A kortul/skirantra combo?
Kortul Skirantra Combo might work or it might not.. The Kortul really would only have the purpose of draining AM from your enemies while the Skirantra would be almost all fighters and be going after his SC.
At any rate, might I suggest repeating the above tests with a Skirantra? That was the original thing questioned here so it might be wise to do so. Level one, Sova gets DMP while the Skirantra gets SB. Level two, Sova gets HSC while the Skirantra gets RC.
I would also like to ask if you could repeat your test with a level 3 version where the Sova has two levels of DMB and the Kortul has two levels of PS as well as the one above with the Skirantra having the second level of RC.
The skirantra is just so weak, I don't see it having any chance against a sova. I mean, 2 dropped like flies to 1 sova. And the thing I didn't mention is, the sova had no shields and only 2/3rds of its hit points when the battle started (vs. 2 skirantras with full shields and hull). After it had destroyed the 2nd skirantra, it had 1/3 of its hit points remaining, LOL. (By the way, my tests with the kortul revealed that a level 1 sova has more hull than a level 2 kortul, and the kortul is a battleship class vessel, vs. what is supposed to be a "flimsy" carrier. Anything sound a little strange about that?)
Having said that, I don't have the guts to try scramble bombers. I fear there is a 1% chance that it might work, and if that happens I'll just have to throw my hands up in the air and declare that it is impossible for any reasonable person to figure out how this game works. I mean, conventional wisdom has always said that scramble bombers is the worst ability in the game, and that repair cloud is one of the best, and the only reason to go skirantra is for repair cloud. If scramble bombers works, it means it is literally impossible to play this game intuitively at all. It would mean that the only way to play it is to spend a couple hundred hours trying out every abiltity in the game against every other ability, and make some giant spreadsheet out of it and memorize the results. I mean, take any other game I've ever played - Starcraft for instance. What's so hard to figure out about what a zergling counters, and what counters it? Or a zealot? Or a high templar? Even as an ultra-newb, I intuitively knew exactly what to build to counter what. But this game? LOL.
Like I said, I don't have the guts to try it. You do the test and report your results here.
But the Skirantra doesn't have to go in range to fight. And that is where its victory lies in. You go in range, you die. Period, end of story. Those MB's will slaughter you.
However, things are still quite logical. SB is considered weak, not because it is always weak, but late game (which is when most people get a Skirantra since its not the best starter cap as that would be the Egg). A couple extra bombers isn't going to change much late game, and the fact is, it pales in comparison to things like adept drone anima (a passive which yields a similar effect) and HSC which buffs all those around it. However, early game, that is a different story. In the beginning of games, few things counter SC aside from more SC. And really, the only way to do that is to use a capital ship. Since the Skirantra and Sova have the same default SC numbers, and since he will obviously invest in DMB, he won't have HSC which is great for you since it makes your job easier. Why? You get scramble bombers. You may not think that is all that valuable, but two extra bomber squads early game is a huge buff. Not only that, but the only counter he has is fighters.
Simply set all your SC to fighters and have them hold position. Any bombers he has will be switched to fighters. This neutralizes itself. Not only that, but since Vasari SC are tough, you will establish air superiority. Then, switch a fighter squad with a bomber and just park the new bomber right beside his capital. As the new fighters spawn, your fighters blast them. Free exp for your cap and since he has no counter now, SB is free to destroy his capital.
Its not luck. Its simple logic.. This is what my strategies rely on. I never simply rush into a battle hoping to get lucky and come out with a win. Everything is calculated. Everything is rational. The game is mathematics. Use that to your advantage. The above is simple subtraction. Worst case scenario, he happens to level up to get HSC. Your response should be to do the same thing and to get RC since it will mitigate the effect of HSC.
How bout this.. 3.5(yours)-3(his)=0.5(you end up with air superiority). .5+2(from SB)=2.5 2.5>0
Or even if you don't manage to obtain air superiority. You still neutralize his SC which still lets SB roam free. No ability in this game is worthless..
Provoke Hysteria: slays heavily reinforced planets.
GRG: works great with FF and kills static structures easily.
Scramble Bombers: Worthless late game, but that boost in SC can be invaluable if used in the early game.
You just have to use it properly, and perhaps this is what the devs intended for the Skirantra. So you see, it doesn't take "guts" to do this, all it takes is logic. And besides, if this is a test, why would it require guts. Its a test for goodness sake. Its not a normal game. You are testing one simple thing. Tests are not typically considered wins or losses. They simply are. They are for future reference and let's say you are unsuccessful. All that really happened was that you confirmed your theory.
You also said earlier that you would need to create a spreadsheet. How is that not exactly what these forums are? Do you not realize that if it wasn't for these forums, the assorted experiments people make would not propagate through the community. I guarantee I could slam any person who has never read the forums. This knowledge takes you from being able to only defeat normals to being able to take on UAI hordes. This would never be accomplished without us sharing our knowledge and tests. You get on and post what you know and your experiences. Essentially, you paraphrase your data. We then compile it into massive guides or suggestions such as Deceiver's thread. We already do what you say. A single game can take 3 hours. There are thousands of players. Each one plays one game and you already have tens of thousands of hours.
Scientists don't make discoveries without experiments. You have nothing to lose except perhaps your pride. The only thing I see holding you back is that. You are afraid that this could be correct and as such, you don't want to feel like an idiot. Well, guess what? Mistakes aren't things that will be remembered for the rest of your life. Habitual ones will, but the point is, learn from them. If you don't try to figure out how, then all you are really doing is running from your problems, and I assure you that is not what you want to do. Just do the dang test. If the Skirantra doesn't work, then you can report back and we'll know that only the Kortul works. If it does work, then it was you that messed up. However, that means that you are human which there is nothing wrong with. Sure, you aren't perfect, but learn from it. Understand how to play the game.
Well sure it does, depending on the situation. If a sova is bombing your roid, and all you have is a couple skirantras, they have to go in range to fight. Then they will die, and you will lose the game. But if he has an unmoving TEC starbase, no, the skirantras don't have to go in range.
Reasons you gave for it being weak are fine, but are just extra reasons for why it is weak above and beyond the main reasons. The main reasons are that it is an antimatter using ability that is in direct competition with the antimatter using ability you'd rather be using - repair cloud. Secondarily, it costs too much antimatter, for too little effect, for too much of a cooldown, for too few strikecraft.
Having the player do mathematics for hours and days and weeks on end in order to play the game correctly (only to have to do it all over again when the next patch comes out) isn't a great model for game development. Just having things be intuitive is a far, far better approach. I don't have to do mathematics and create spreadsheets and scratch my head for weeks and months on end, and do endless hours of testing and posting on forum boards to figure out how to play Starcraft well.
It takes guts for me because I have been so disappointed in this game in the past that I have put it down for extensive periods of time - the first time for about a year, the second time for about 6 months. Like I said, I've already concluded that it doesn't play intuitively and never has, but if I find out that the sucky scramble bombers ability is what is needed to defeat an early sova... well, let's just say I'd rather keep my head in the sand about it and not know.
See above on a better approach to game design.
Okay.. Missile Batteries are going to kill you. We agree on that. However, they can't move. The Sova won't move because its busy bombing you. Your response should be to park your Skirantra outside their range. That way they can't shoot at you. The Sova won't shoot at you either. That turns the battle into SC only. And thanks to SB, it means that your SC outnumber his which means that he can't deal damage to you while you have free reign over the battle. So like I said, you don't have to go in range..
But at this point in the game, nothing else on it uses AM. For this reason, you don't have to worry about competition. So that point did nothing to help you...
But at the beginning of the game, 2 additional squads is a huge boost. Not late game mind you, but early game, that is a great boost. Sure its no DAM, but it is still functional in this situation.
I came up with that idea in my head within about 30 seconds. Its not terribly complex, but rather its just from a knowledge of the statistics of the game which most people have. If you don't, go review the cap ship ability guide by Sagewon. That gives you all the data you need. From there, its simple subtraction which I certainly hope you can do in your head.
How would it be disappointing? You just proved that there is a way to counter it! Do you not want a counter? Are you looking for an excuse to quit again?
It seems to work for most everyone else.. This either means that you don't read or an outlier. Take your pick...
It is disappointing when you play the game since the day it was released and you still can't figure out how to counter something (or, it takes 2 years to figure it out). Again I will reference Starcraft (just because everybody knows what that game is). I never had that problem with Starcraft.
Actually, the opposite. I'm looking for an excuse NOT to quit again. I'd rather have the illusion that conventional wisdom has told me correctly that scramble bombers does yae verily suck, and will not defeat the sova. In other words, there is something reasonable about the game (conventional wisdom, intuition, etc) that tells me how to play it. If the game can't be played with some modicum of conventional wisdom, intuition, etc. then I don't want to play it.
Listen, it might seem like I'm bickering at you, but I'm really not. Your points are actually well-thought out, well-received, and unlike a lot of other people associated with this game, you aren't attacking me, and seem like a polite enough chap. If you are one of the few people who for whatever reason have found it easy to figure out this game, my hat's off to you. I'm certainly not one of those people. Who knows, maybe this game just bizzarely jives with your intuition. It certainly doesn't with mine.
No one's perfect.. Fact is, while I probably know how to beat most average players, I won't. Why? Because its more fun to do it with ways that are more challenging.. I don't just play to win. I play to have fun. For that reason, i will never be one of the best, but will likely remain as I am now.
This game has a lot of depth. This isn't fully rock-paper-scissors, and I like that. Sure, its not perfectly balanced like combat triangles tend to be, but it is certainly better than it could be.. I like the way it is because it keeps you thinking. One of the primary problems with the world today is laziness. As life gets easier, we don't get much more done. We still get about the same amount done as we did before. Thinking has become more and more rare. I am just as guilty as the next person, but Sins gives me the opportunity to problem solve and think logically and try to outsmart the opponent. The only other thing I have that does something similar would be the organization DI. If you haven't been in it, you won't get it. If you have, and your team actually tried, you'll understand how much effort it actually takes.
The point is, shallow games are not as enjoyable as those with depth if you think about it. If games really were rock-paper-scissors only with different names, games would grow old very quickly. The game has been progressing towards balance. Sure, its not there yet, and seeing as how the races are so different, it will never be perfect, but we are getting closer. Depth is what keeps people playing. When you see a new patch, you don't just download it and try to play how you have. You look at the changelog and ask yourself, "How will this affect my gameplay?" Most of the time it won't do that much, but this past patch has certainly brought a lot of caps out of obscurity, to the point where really only four caps are left in it, far better than it used to be.
My point is, if not for your own benefit, perform this test to display it for the community. This way, Vasari that are Sova rushed will know what to do in the Situation. You'll be helping them. You simply don't want to defy common wisdom, but the fact is, it is also common wisdom that early game, even a small number of SC can be lethal. That rule overrides "Scramble Bombers sucks" and takes precedence. For this reason, it does not defy logic. Everything strategy is an if statement (if a programmer reads this, you know what I'm talking about). You don't just use Missile Barrage willy nilly... That's a lot of AM and it has a long CD. When you have a level six marza and it goes into battle, you ask yourself the following, whether you realize it or not: "Is the enemy count high enough to use MB effectively?" If no, you stop. If yes, you go on to another question: "Am I currently at the point where I would get the most usage out of it?" If yes, you use it. If not, you ask yourself again in a little bit.
That is the way most strategies work. They are complex if statements. If something is true, do this. And since it is early game, scramble bombers<>sucky. (for those of you who are not programmers/have never seen this annotation before, <> means does not equal).
Agent one of te beauties of this game is all the different combos of strats.Little things like getting 2 extra bomber squads at the right time can change the battle.It makes it fun.Think about the way you play strategically.Sometimes you have to lose things to win.If you had a skirantra with scramble and all fighters your fighters would kill his while your bombers attacked his ship.Even thos you might lose some bombers the scramble will keep goin.Hit and run with your skirantra at the same time.Put the pressure on.I could see this defeating the sova cause it takes away all its dps from your ship.If you can field 2-3 bombers on the sova they will tear it up.Get 1-2 flak and your bombers will be free.All kinds of combos you can come up with.Add in some kanracks and roatate them so you dont lose them.
Well, if I remember correctly, Vasari bomber squads have a DPS of 18, so SB would deal approximately 25 DPS (accounting for AM drain). Also, since your Fighters also deal 24 DPS, you could knock out your enemy's fighters relatively quickly.. Then, you can switch one squad over to bombers to give you three, and thus increase your DPS against him to about 33. Its not a ton of damage, but over time, it will add up and it is going to make him hurt.
first, let me start by saying i totally think the vasari is underpowered or heavily biased against in the many respects. its mainly why i dont play them despite the cool toys i mentioned.
but! everyone paying the same is boring. then its even more like whoever starts spending on the most powerful unit first and can bring more units into the fight first, wins.
like i said a few pages back, im fine with the vasari costing more or having needing more fleet points, but they should do more damage, or at least have abilities that boost damage.
however, like i said if you want to win you have to spend more. yeah, TEC is better suited to that philosophy, but thats a flaw in the game not a flaw in the philosophy.
examples were given that you take a lvl 2 kortul against a lvl 1 sova only and the kortul wins every time (with the right abilities) you think its spending more, well yeah, but then when you win, remember the enemy now has to spend another 3000 credits etc on a new cap ship, which im sure they dont have, and at that stage you can probably put some resources into some lf/lrf and push the advantage.
anyway, last thing is yeah, i do think the Vasari need boosting somehow, either in econ or damage or both? perhaps buying upgrades for Vasari should be cheaper because they're more experienced in the first place, having been running from their enemy etc...
but the philosophy of spending more to win still applies, otherwise you spend the exact same, and everyone losses and you might as well start from the beginning again
my looks like there's a FREAKIN HUGE MISCALCULATION ere for sova's missile battery dps.heh no wonder some pep miscalculate sova overall dps
I get waht you mean now. When I said that everyone should pay the same, I meant that every faction should get equally cost effective units. Each faction should pay an X amount of resources for a Y amount of DPS/health.
I'm not entirely for that due to abilities and such, but my thing is that it should be fairly balanced in that regard.. Abilities are the iffy thing... Used well, they are invaluable. Used improperly, and they are a waste of credits...
Deciever- I didn't even think about repair cloud working on strikecraft. thx for the info.
Kharma- The thing about Vasari cap-ships is that due to each one's abilitis, they effectively have only one support cap, the marauder. And it sucks in its role i think. All the others have mixed assault/support abilities. That is why 1 skirantra wouldn't cut it there. IMO, you should have gone with 1 Skirantra, with 1 Repair and one Scramble Bombers, and built a Kortul as your second. Your opponent will certainly have been intimidated by this matchup, not knowing which to kill first. (Carrier heals Hull, Battleship heals its own shields...both makes the Kortul a deadly ship in this case, as long as the Power Surge was maxed)
Although, if you had alternated the Skirantra's squadrons (Half fighter/Half bomber on each) you would have been pretty well off too. So long as you microed the fighters all onto one squad at a time, then just let them go when they were initially cleared, they would have kept your opponent's Sova crippled in that department.
The thing about Sova, is that it is essentially a small fleet of it's own right. Itself, Squadrons, Missile Batteries, and i even count embargo to an extent, since it cripples your opponet's ability to build replacement ships by denying the current plantet's income, making the ship a slightly better choice in a siege. It's always one of the first 2 i build, along with an Akkan for fast expansion.
HEre's a question- How much research had you and your opponent done into ship HP/Shield/Armor upgrades? Cuz that is very important here. Also, don't give up on Vasari. Their weakness in this situation is their strength in others. Play them in SP until you are fully familiarized with each ship's uses, strengths, and weaknesses before you give up. They are challenging, but a fun race IMO.
I have no clue how to upload the replays into my game, so my other question is was this an attack on an enemy or a defense, cuz someone mentioned a frig factory. In which case, THAT should have been your first target, ignoring all else. Also, i suggest ignoring the Sova's missile batteries and focussing on the ship itself, just moving out of their range. It'll follow, or not, then you can do what you came there to do without fear of the 1-ship fleet. lolz.
Also, SB offense is always good. If you didn't get one to the battle, or at least try, that was another flaw. Drop it in and build it RIGHT where it enters the grav well, hopfully a decent distance from the battle, then fall your fleet back to it when it builds, or take out your opponent's fleet while they try to take it out before it is built with minimum return-fire. Does Repair cloud work on a SB?
Sorry..this is all over the place, but it's all here. Don't mean to sound like i'm attacking you either, Kharma, just some advice.
-Exile(\/)
Edit- What exactly do the extra levels of Missile Batteries do? I see no change on the infocard for its level 2 or 3 upgrade.
Increase the hull/shields/armor/DPS of the battery itself. The battery is also considered a frigate, so its also subject to research that will affect normal frigates.
But i've been told it doesn't benefit from research upgrades...was that wrong?
Also, sorry if anything i said was covered in previous posts. I didn't evn look to see that there were 5 pages on this...
Top Vasari and I have more or less come up with a way to do so which has yet to be tested, and under certain conditions, it has been shown that the Kortul will win.
There's your super-dense version of the past 5 pages...
but the problem with this is that ther eare certain things intrinsic to each race that will unbalance this...
like, lets say TEC has a higher starting DPS than Vasari on a given unit, they both pay 100 credits to buy the ship, and 100 credits to enhance the ship, yet TEC wins out because 1. the starting DPS is higher and 2. the fleet points cost is lower for tec, so even if two LF cost the same, you might have more TEC LF than Vasari LF.
things need to be balanced taking everything into account, fleet points, levels of research, which weapons are used, their particular properties, how abilities affect them, base levels, the list goes on.
for instance, i think the illum should cost more than the other two LRF, (not sure if it does or not), i also think the different class of cap ships should cost different.
its no easy task by any means, but it should be done
Yes, of course, I was just simplifying everything, not going into any details.
I think that illums costs almost the same as the assailant.
yeah, but in that case everything wouldnt cost the 'same'. you would pay 100 credits for a ship that does X damage and A fleet supply points, and the same 100 credits for a ship that does Y damage and B supply points...
basically, i understand what you're saying, you shouldnt pay more for a less effective unit, but im saying you should pay more for a more effective unit... an illum should do more damage, but cost more. an assailant requires the most fleet supply, so should perhaps cost less or be more resilient, if not be the most powerful (which i think it should be but...)
well, as i understand it, the assailant is the worst of the three LRF right? then its stupid that it costs the same or near the same as the best LRF in the game...
Well, once you give it Discharging Missiles and well upgraded PM's, it quite probably rivals the Illuminator..
Volt, I'll try it out and let you know, I will have to comandeer my son's computer again or get him to help (he hates strategy games, it's only L4D or COD for him)
Also, you seem like you may be a decent guy to play online. If you see me online let me know. I like big battles in smaller games and play to have fun in those (i.e. don't mind losing if it's a good time).
Zmb5/ZombiesRus5
BTW, in regards to LRM's, the upfront investment to build similar dps fleets appears to have been balanced by unit/cost if you include the initial research costs (#-labs). The illum has the edge due to side beams and higher shielding. The main reason Assailants suck as an early fleet is because a low budget scout fleet tears them apart. Even a low budget disciple fleet can hold hold off assailants by sheer numbers alone. Hence early game vasari can be difficult for most players.
Okay, i read this page. Anything prior has most likely been settled, but:
I don't understand why Scramble Bombers is caught in the middle like it it. Personally, it's the ability i take when i can't go up in RC. I find Microphasing Aura to be rather redundant, since Vasari have the toughest SC in the game. I might take it at around level 5, just to get things rounded off if i'm having trouble, but not before. And all you have to do to keep it from being a drain on RC is put it on manual. Then keep your hosted squads on fighters for defense, and use this ability for damage.
This wasn't being discussed any more, but it wasn't really resolved either i think...I don't know. I just love playing Vasari...almost as much as i love TEC, and HATE advent...
Scramble bombers sucks because it will only give you a couple additional bombers. Picture late game when you have 20 transporters. You really want to spend antimatter to have a couple extra bombers? The other thing is, it competes with repair cloud for antimatter. This is why I choose microphasing aura every time I have to choose something beside repair cloud - it doesn't use any antimatter.
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