Just finished a game against a TEC on a small map. I was vasari. What's the best early answer for vasari to halcyons or sovas? Near as I can tell, skirantras, so I built 2.
Game starts. We both pick up a couple of roids, and meet in the middle at my asteroid. He attacked my asteroid with a single sova, backed by a couple of cobalts. Went straight for the roid, started bombing it. I already had my 2 skirantras there, so they attacked his sova. I had plenty of antimatter on both skirantras. I manually alternated repair on both of them, waiting for the optimal time each time to do it. Meanwhile, I was pumping assailants to counter his cobalts. I had about 1 assailant for each cobalt he had once the battle ended.
What happened?
His sova killed one of my caps, was well on the way to killing the other one, and the roid was almost bombed completely down before I said "screw this, if your single sova can own BOTH my caps and and take my roid with hardly a scratch, I ain't playing - you win" and pushed the quit button.
No, he did not have mobile repair at my roid (hoshikos), nor a repair station.
No, his sova was not high level, nor was it higher level than any of my caps.
1 sova > 2 skirantras. This is even with both skirantras having repair cloud, alternating it. Can anyone please offer me a rationale for this?
No, I don't believe the game should be balanced by unit. But given the current state of the game, I also see no reason why a single sova should significantly own TWO skirantras!
Fandango, I would like to direct your attention to post 65, in which he does admit that he played you. So stop yelling and actually read this thread.
No offense Volt, but I read that as sarcasm. Besides in post 65 he says first that "I already told you I didn't play you, and that wasn't my game, but just for the sake of argument", hence I read what came after as sarcasm and 'for the sake of argument'. For example, 'he is the best player I've ever played' is clearly sarcasm, particularly as it was Terr that beat him, not I.
In addition he then goes onto post a screenshot from a different game, proably a Vs AI game, and maintains his original argument, thus reinforcing my reading of post 65 as noted above.
I would disagree with this as the Sova is meant to invade planets with embargo and deploy missle platforms for defense. The Skirantra is meant to support a FLEET with heal.
A single Sova and a single Skirantra is not an even fight. The Sova has direct attack abilities. The Skirantra has fleet support. You need a fleet with the Skirantra. Even several Assailants and a Skirantra should take down a single Sova. The Skirantra is needed to fight a Sova to negate any fighters or bombers. He already committed two capitals to attacking the Sova, I'm suggesting two Skirantras for Vasari is not a good choice. Had he built the Skirantra for defense and a Kortul for attack he could still easily colonize and be prepared to handle a rush if it came.
I don't even think the original poster is suggesting a single Skirantra is equal to a Sova. This is silly. There is a clear winner in all of the Capital class ships. It's not like tossing a coin to see who will win. It TAKES player skill to determine how to affectively use your fleet and take advantage of mistakes made by the other player. If he only brings one Sova, his mistake, you need dps to make it count. Sending in one or two low dps ships simply won't work.
I agree with zombie here. From the sound of it, agent did not play skillfully at all and wants to blame something being overpowered for his loss. Cap ships were designed to play a certain role in a fleet and the roles of these 2 carrier caps are different. It doesn't sound like he used them to their best advantage and that his micro was crap. This is just another whiney agent thread like there are so many of already.
[_]-Greyfox
i have agree with this
If you can chase the sova away(and fleet). then those left over missile battery things are great exp
I think it was 80 exp per kill
Zombie, fine. I'm not disputing anything you say. One question: 2 homeworlds, one roid in between. He builds sova and rushes. What's the capship of choice for vasari to counter, if any? Thanks.
Greyfox, if you read, you will see that I have not claimed that the sova is "overpowered." In fact, I claimed verbatim that I view it as "correctly powered" and that vasari capships are underpowered. I said this several times.
Greyfox, you hate me. I get it. So fine, attack me all you want, I won't attack back. I'll just ask an honest question, not a sarcastic question. If the skirantra is the wrong capship to use, what's the correct capship for vasari to deploy against a sova, if any?
Thanks. I setup through galaxy forge a 2 homeworld, one roid scenario. He builds one sova (all bombers) and rushes. I build one Kortul and rush. A level 1 Kortul can't stand up to a level 1 Sova. However, a simple upgrade to level 2 makes the Kortul a Sova killer. Disruptive Strike basically neuters his attacking ability to deploy missle platforms and power surge negates any affect from his bomber and weapons. Even upgrading the Sova to Level 2 or 3 has no affect on the outcome after this point. It's main strength is the missle platforms.
I ran another scenario where I populated the Asteroid first and deployed a single phase missle cannon. Upgraded the Kortul to level 2 and let the Sova bring in 5 LF and then start sending in LRM's. The Kortul beat the Sova handadly in this situation without additional support.
Basically once you hit level 2 on the Kortul the Sova just doesn't have enough to stop it.
It can't handle a Jarasul upgraded either, not enough antimatter for a level 1 kill using nano disassembler, but plenty with the second stage. Your problem is the narrow field of options you're using, you can't take a Sova with missile batteries using any level 1 capital ship. It's the ultimate badass at level 1, but only level 1.
I don't hate you at all, agent. I find you to be annoying and a whiner but that is far from hate. With 2 skirantra against 1 sova, you should have had enough strike craft to kill it with bombers with a couple of fighters thrown in to kill off enemy fighters. Instead you didn't use the skirantra to great benefit and instead it sounds like you went in and let the missle platforms beat you silly. If you lost a cap because of missle platforms I find that pretty sad when you can just MOVE out of range. You could have fallen back and repaired or just out of range and let sc do their work. Even if you lost the roid it did not much matter because you can always retake the thing and not have lost much. It would have even given you another builder for a repair or something. Talking about going mano a mano with caps is stupid. Caps are primarily for fleet augmentation. Caps are not balanced in 1 to 1 combat but in what they do overall. Some caps are better against caps than others. You played stupidly and you lost because of it. It happens to everyone(me included). Just learn how you screwed up and do better next time. Quit moaning about it already.
I find it hard to believe that a kortul will stand up to a carrier with bombers, both ships being at the same level, because I tested it against advent halcyons with another player (granted I went for jam weapons, which seems to be the intuitive, sensible thing to do against a carrier).
Funnily enough, this was a "pro" player I tested this against, who told me beforehand not to even try it, that it was stupid to do and a waste of both our time, that the kortuls would be slaughtered by bombers (and they were, each time). I even used multiple kortuls and staggered the "jam weapons" but carrier caps easily won. He told me to go skirantras to deal with enemy carrier caps, so that's what I started doing. Now we are here and someone is telling me to go kortuls. Go figure.
Perhaps the real problem is that there is no user's manual or communication from the devs on how to use any of these ships, and worse, the way you use them changes from patch to patch. So you just have to figure it out through massive trial and error. Even the "pros" differ on what should be done.
But forget all of that, I asked you a question, and you gave me an answer, which is what I wanted.
An egg just gets utterly slaughtered vs. carrier caps. You see carrier caps and you have an egg, the best hope you have is just turn tail and run as quickly as possible, and hope he doesn't give chase and kill your egg in the next grav well (which he often will). But thanks for your input anyway.
Yes, I stated that I did. If he's bombing my roid, I have no other choice but to go to him. I played JBaum in a battle a few days before this incident. I fought his sovas in a neutral grav well with my skirantras and starbase. Here, I did NOT let him beat me silly with missle platforms, because there was no roid he was bombing. I just kept running my starbase around while keeping my skirantras running behind it to keep it healed up.
Every situation is different, thus I play every situation different. But I still see no reason why the attack on an attack ship should be far greater than the heal of TWO support ships, when I am forced by the game design to use that support ship to counter what he brings. The problem is, the game design forces vasari to be nonviable on a small map, but I entered the proposition assuming that vasari was viable in this situation.
Let me try to say this again.
1. He was bombing my roid. I had to go to him if I had any chance of saving the roid.
2. I found it surprising, and pathetic, that the dps of his capship could out-dps the heal of TWO of my capships, when I am forced to bring that particular capship. It offends my intuitive sense of how this should be balanced. I have to play this game either by an intuitive sense of a correct balance, or rote memorization of an unintuitive balance through lots of trial and error, which changes from patch to patch. Please forgive me if I struggle with the latter.
I'm not retaking that roid once I lose it, and neither are you, especially once he drops 3 TEC repair platforms on it. You lose the roid in a game like that, it's game over, so you just give it all you got. Actually, you lose the first battle in a game like that (which this was), it's game over. You know that.
Where's the moan? I just reread my original post at the top. I see no moaning whatsoever. I don't even see a hint of a moan.
My conclusions are that vasari are forced to bring skirantra to deal with threat of enemy carrier caps (halcyon, sova), but actually won't be able to counter the sova on a small map. Vasari are unviable on a small map, so you MARK MY WORDS, sooner or later the devs will rebalance the vasari, either through nerfs to other factions, or buffs to vasari.
This ends my involvement on this thread. Thanks to all who tried to offer constructive input.
I didnt suggest that at all. I meant that there should not be a very significant difference in strength between cap ships of the same class.I have no problem with the Sova being the strongest, I simply think that it should not be so overwhelmingly stronger in a duel then other carrier caps.
How is it balanced when spending more money then the enemy being the only way to beat him?
how would you have it? that everyone pays the same? or the vasari pay less than the TEC or whatever? obviously costs are going to vary across the races, so how big does the difference have to be before its 'unfair'
when you need to build twice as many scouts/LF to counter an LRF spam, or vice versa, its considered balanced, so...
or when you had to build carriers to counter LRF etc etc
each race is different, that was the entire idea when the devs made the game. the vasari need to put more resources to be effective until later game when they have all their extra toys.
i mean, the exact same applies when you need to spend more on building more ships or researching upgrades... perhaps 1 Sova without damage/armor upgrades is equal to 1 skirantra with damage/armor upgrades... hey, if you destroy the enemy with 1 hp remaining... you still win, and maybe one level of research is all it takes.
if you want to win, you spend more, simple as that.
TheRezonator, you are misinterpreting what it means to "balance by race" vs. "balance by unit." JuleTron is right, you are wrong (with all due respect). "Balance by race" means vasari gets a moving starbase but no torpedo cruiser, where as TEC gets a stationary starbase, but it blows up, plus they get a torpedo cruiser. It means vasari gets returning armada, and TEC gets pervasive economy. It means the races have different techs, different units, and different abilities, but it all balances out in the end.
But having to spend more money to beat your opponent than he spends to beat you is not balanced, unless your race has some innate way to generate more money faster than him, or you are somehow getting "more bang for the buck" than he is. This is not balance at all, whether "by race" or "by unit."
That would be perfect.
Has it ever occured to you that the Vasari have a weaker eco then the TEC?
lol
That is an incredibly brainless way of playing a game. If what you said is true, I can't imagine why anyone would want to play this game. Where is the game-play depth? counters? timing? tactics? Its just spamming ships into the meat grinder is it? Is Sins really that 1-dimensional? Is all races spending more or less the same amount of money somehow bad because it mysteriously reduces faction uniqueness?
Vasari is triply screwed in this case because Vasari gets less bang for their buck, make money slower then TEC and have to spend more upfront money. That is totally totally screwed up.
Kharma, I did state skip jam weapons. This ability is rather bleh unless there are a lot of bombers. Power surge not only increases attack, it increases shield restore. Again, Basically it has it's own heal shield abiltiy with Power Surge. Disruptive strikes disables his ability to deploy missle platforms. For the same cost as the couple of lf and the Sova you have a Kortul that takes them down. BTW, you only asked for a 1 Sova and 1 Vasari cap example that would work. I also tested this out as well and it does work. I can see how your previous example would fail by selecting the wrong abilities to work with as 1 low level Sova can deploy 3-4 missle platforms and 3 bombers.
Who said you HAD to spend money to do this. Who just sits a Capital ship (lvl1) in their gravity well waiting for an attack. You could simply level it up by sending it to a nearby planets. However, some people may choose to pay to level up a 2nd or 3rd cap to get access to abilities, health and weapons that CAN change the battle. That is why there is research to increase capital training to level 4 because some people actually do this.
- dual post
Halycons and sovas are different animals.
Indeed.
Agent its like this.The heal ability is not super strong byitself ok.Think about this tho.Say you get hit with mb and all 50 kanracks are getting killed.You pop heal ability and all 50 get healed.You save your entire fleet and heal like abagillion hp.You see the difference here.The sova cannot come close to this support later on.In fact it doesnt support the fleet at all beyond its own dps dealing ability.Another example of the skirantra is say your on the defence and your building a sb with 30 ilums ff on it to keep it from building.Vasari repair only heals at 15 but add 30 from skirantra and now you have 45 whic is pretty dang good.That there changes the entire outcome of battle.To tank high ff dps situation you need to get overseer which only vas have.
They aren't too different when it comes to their bombers. Yeah, halcyon get more bombers, but they are weaker. Sova gets less bombers, but they are stronger. About the same effect at the end of the day.
Bombers slaughter capships. You clanners and pros already know that - I don't need to tell it to you.
You have to deal with each ship differently.2 skirantra would work well against 2 haly but not 2 kortul.For any race if there is 2 carrier cap cmin you have to deal with at least 1 ships bombers.Either getting flak or fighters.Kortul will tank 3-5 bombers with ps long enuf for you to chase him away.
Fine. I don't have a chance to test this today, because I am busy. But tomorrow I will get online and build a kortul the first game I play. I am guaranteed to be rushed by either sova or halcyon, so I will test this ship out against the bombers which are guaranteed to come my way. When this doesn't work, I will be right back here posting and telling you all that you are wrong.
It is fine by me if you guys want to say the skirantra rocks, the kortul rocks, and there are no balance issues here. I can just quit playing vasari (in fact I already have) and move to the advent, which 80% of online players have already done. If you guys think it's fine that we have all advent playing each other online, it's no skin off my nose.
Actually I use to be 99% advent player but I find myself playing tec and vasari more than advent.Dont forget to bring a few flak and frigates with your kortul.It wont win entire battles but tank huge amounts of dps for you fleet.
Did you not read Zombies post at all? He did say that he had figured out a way for a Kortul. And it likely is a lot in how you use it...
@Zombie: I'm sorry if I didn't see this if you did put it there, but if not/you wouldn't mind, a Sova vs Skirantra test with SB would be very much appreciated.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
