Just finished a game against a TEC on a small map. I was vasari. What's the best early answer for vasari to halcyons or sovas? Near as I can tell, skirantras, so I built 2.
Game starts. We both pick up a couple of roids, and meet in the middle at my asteroid. He attacked my asteroid with a single sova, backed by a couple of cobalts. Went straight for the roid, started bombing it. I already had my 2 skirantras there, so they attacked his sova. I had plenty of antimatter on both skirantras. I manually alternated repair on both of them, waiting for the optimal time each time to do it. Meanwhile, I was pumping assailants to counter his cobalts. I had about 1 assailant for each cobalt he had once the battle ended.
What happened?
His sova killed one of my caps, was well on the way to killing the other one, and the roid was almost bombed completely down before I said "screw this, if your single sova can own BOTH my caps and and take my roid with hardly a scratch, I ain't playing - you win" and pushed the quit button.
No, he did not have mobile repair at my roid (hoshikos), nor a repair station.
No, his sova was not high level, nor was it higher level than any of my caps.
1 sova > 2 skirantras. This is even with both skirantras having repair cloud, alternating it. Can anyone please offer me a rationale for this?
No, I don't believe the game should be balanced by unit. But given the current state of the game, I also see no reason why a single sova should significantly own TWO skirantras!
@Jule: Oh...
@Agent: I know what you mean, but all the same I was being realistic. One Sova vs Skirantra ought to be a pretty fair fight, but if you brought in a single sentinel (which would be far more realistic) then you have the advantage of being able to stop his Fighters in their tracks.. The same goes with Assailants. If you actually were in this battle in a real game, and not just a test, shame on you for not using any fleet support to speak of, especially the tier I LRF.
At any rate, we need MP people to get online and test this thing out...
KHARMA REPLAY, we need it to see what you did wrong!
Have A Nice Day. BAH BAH BAH, Have A Nice Day.
thats the thing, though. you said it yourself not each ship is even.
honestly, i think vasari should, from a lore point of view, be the most powerful race in terms of damage and survivability by far, but the trade off is they'd have fewer ships, TEC wouldnt be very powerful damage wise, but have much greater numbers, and advent would be somewhere inbetween, somehow balancing raw damage and abilities.
however... for some reason beyond us mere mortals, that is not the case.
so, that being what it is, you cant go up against an enemy when things are 'even'. you need to play to your strengths. assuming everything is 'even' you take your 5 Cobalts, he takes his 5 Cobalts, you fire at each other, and by the end of it everyone is dead leaving player 3 to come in and mop you up like a leaky tap.
he brings a carrier or two with some lf/lrf, you bring a battleship, spam some LRF or LF/scouts, maybe 2 carriers or some flak, whichever you prefer, or! you research armor and HP upgrades and have fewer ships... i mean come to think of it he may have had more research than you...
anyway, im not here to lecture you, but thats the thing, you have to play to your/the race's strengths, and to be blunt, have some luck. i do agree that some ships are more unbalanced than others... but it seems the ever elusive target... once the skirantra can beat the sova once again, people will complain about the skirantra being too powerful so....
one more thing the sova is a combat cap, it is designed to do tonnes of dmg.
the skinantra is a support cap as all of its abilities focus on helping the fleet.
ever tried putting a donov against a kortul, i think we can all figure out the result.
the argument about caps should be able to beat each other is not valid, because different caps have different rolls, the sova is ment to deal dmg, the skinantra is ment to have an unkillible SC presence.
_|~Uber
Thats what I was trying to say.As fleets grow the sova becomes less and less effective whereas a skirtantra becomes more.
Okay, but the point he was making wasn't that it wasn't good late game, but rather the Vasari had no response to a Sova rush.
So you two are entirely okay with the vasari not having ANY cap that can stand it's ground against a sova on a small map where the two sides will meet early in the game? You are entirely okay that the vasari will have to give up his roid to the tec player (assuming a small FAIR map, two players of identical skill, etc)?
If you are okay with it, fine, just say that you are. I mean, maybe I have the wrong perspective on this. Maybe it *IS* okay. But I want to hear you two guys say it first before I try to adjust my brain to this philosophy and wrap my mind around it.
Have you tried a kortul?Even 2 kortuls since you had a 2v1 there?A level 2 or 3 kol will be pretty nasty against a sova.Eliminating its am or disabling sc while it heals itself and deals good damage to the sova.A kortul and a skirantra would be awesome as well.
agent i cant argue that vasari are far weaker then TEC and advent on the rush.
and as vasari it is near impossible to counter a good rush from the other races unless you use SBs (which is a bad strat because it traps you in)
a kortul can hold its own against any cap in the game, and is a good starting cap to stop sova rush, you would need the DS so he cant use missile battereis then you just need a small supporting fleet, if you wanted you could even go double kortul.
within 2 jumps of a skilled player without a SB rush Vasari have a massive disadvantage.
Unfortunatly Vasaris strenght is in the late game where they get (RA, Subverters, Kostras, Phase Gates, improved fleet sizez, discounts on resources and credits) but in MP you would be lucky if 1 in 10 games got to that point.
while 99% of the people play SP Vasari is balanced because almost all games get to the late stages in the game.
The biggest problem with vasari is they are balanced to the SP game not to the MP game, and in situations like you point out they are almost impossible to win with, unless you go defencive.
"your sova is ****ing OP it can beat 2 carriers of mine and just ***ing cobalts for backup. ridiculous"
So this wasn't you in the replay then? That would worry me, mate. Eerie.
One of the two better players in the replay was Vasari, he had an Egg and ten assailants against his Advent opponent. If you are beaten, its useful to send a polite "gg" and then watch the replay to see if you can get any hints from the superior play of your opponents.
Your test is odd- the roid is supposed to be vital, yet has no upgrades or defences, it's almost impossible to stop any full health cap from sieging it one-on-one. A first level Sova couldn't stop a first level Skirantra. As it happens, the cap that would have by far the best chance to succeed is the Egg, with nano rather than colonise as its first choice. I suppose this isn't much of a problem under the circumstances, only one jump from a homeworld a colony frigate can take it and be used for a starbase later. An Egg might have the Sova on the run before it could put out a second missile battery.
Your Doppleganger issue is more of a poser though. Best advice- check your shadow and reflection several times every day, and you want a priest for an exorcism. An Old Catholic might be your best option, an Indulgence will cost you- otherwise you might have to change your forum name as a penance. Can't envy you, there's enough smart players on ICO to trouble even the elite warlords, and everyone has an off-day. Knowing that someone is trying to steal your soul, however- thats out of order.
also, you were playing on your home turf, you should have been able to drop a regen bay and at least 1 turret or one or the other... yes its not even but i think we've come to the conclusion its not even at all... if you were to attack his planet he would certainly have a regen bay or a turret or even an sb so....
you gotta use whats at your disposal... why plan a battle strategy that expects losses when you can plan one that leaves him devastated and you without a scratch...
given, with all of that said, i think we all agree here that Vasari is losing out... its just so different to the other two races its hard to reconcile them at all...
We all agree that the Vasari is relatively weak early game, but can put up a very good fight late game... All the same, I still say the Skirantra could beat a Sova...
I tried Kortuls in a test last week against Advent Halcyons. I told my opponent to come with Halcyons before the game started (which he usually does anyway). The Kortuls were crushed by the bombers even though I had jam weapons. So I don't think there is any way on earth a Kortul could stand up to a Sova. Even if disruptive strikes stopped the missle batteries from spawning, the bombers would slaughter it.
Should a vasari cap be able to stop the enemy cap from sieging? No. But should a vasari cap be able to make the enemy cap pay the price for doing so? Yes. But in my game, the it was the sova that made TWO skirantras pay the price for defending.
Yes, we agree not even. No, couldn't drop regen bay because the builder was killed. "Well you should have put a regen bay there ahead of time!" Hindsight is always 20/20. I didn't know my roid was about to be attacked until it was too late. If my roid wasn't attacked, I'd be criticized for dropping repair and being overly defensive when it wasn't necessary.
At any rate, I was going to voluteer to be online anytime New Years Day or after to play Sova or Skirantra against anyone who wanted to test this stuff out. But it seems as if Top Vasari and others already agree that Vasari is disadvantaged in this situation, so my work here is done.
Thanks to everyone for your input, whether you agreed with me or disagreed.
LMFAO. Yeah, yeah mate....
I cannot believe the crap people get away with in this community. WHERE IS YOUR REPLAY? Oh yeah thats right I already posted it.....
Vasari is only disadvantaged in that situation when under the command of a poor player which, in this instance, you were. For example, and sticking with the replay I posted which I believe is the correct one, you had plenty of time to plonk a repair bay. It is well known that one should plonk a repair bay at colonies adjacent to an enemies. You knew he was adjacent way before he destroyed your constructor frig.
Why don't you just accept that in this instance you lost due to poor play FFS?
Jesus man, where do the assholes in this community come from? Why do you keep attacking me out of the blue? I already told you I didn't play you, and that wasn't my game, but just for the sake of argument, WHY THE HECK DOES IT MATTER? And why the heck do you need a replay?
I said I couldn't build repair because he took out the builder. But either way, WHAT THE HELL DOES REPAIR HAVE TO DO WITH MY POINT THAT VASARI CAPS ARE OUTMATCHED AGAINST A SOVA? If vasari caps need repair to stand up to other caps that don't need repair, then that proves my point even more, so thanks for making it for me!
So what the hell do you want from me, so you will go away and leave me alone? An admission that I played you? An admission that I played poorly? Fine, great, fantastic, I'll do it!
To all readers of this thread, I played Fandangdo. I sucked in my game against him (actually, truth be known, I suck in all games I play, whether against him or not). I lost fair and square. He was probably the best player I've ever played against.
Is that good enough? Will you go away and quit berating me now? Somehow, I truly doubt it.
Screenshot of sova destroying 1 of 2 skirantras.
Give us the entire battle picture, we want to know that there is no cobalts on the left side of the screen because I do not see any wreckages from the destroyed frigates.
So there are two points that ought to be made:
1. I believe that the Vasari have the capability via Scramble Bombers to make a Sova pay for Bombardment.
2. If this is not the case, or you wish to speed up the process, use fleet support. I've already said that early game, a Sentinel can neutralize small numbers of SC easily. Also, once again, shame on any Vasari player that won't use Assailants to defend a world. These things are a great for helping kill enemy ships.
So, there are three opinions here:
1. The Skirantra/Vasari in general are weak.
2. The Skirantra can effectively counter a Sova should you do things properly.
3. You could have easily used fleet support but instead blew off the usage of it..
Sine 1/2 are debatable, let's hear your opinion of 3. Why didn't you use fleet support? Capitals are support ships, they help fleets, especially the Skirantra. Why did you not have fleet support?
I just wanted to add my opinion on this: Your problem was your fighter/bomber balance. I know people have said it before and you said you wouldn't use bombers when they have fighters, but the bottom line is that you are wrong, and that's why you lost.
You could have easily wiped out all his fighters even if you were balanced ~half and half, since as his fighters chase your bombers, your fighters would be cutting his down while taking no losses themselves. Before long, he'd have had zero strikecraft, and you could then re-balance your fleet to be something like 6bomber/2fighter. Add the scramble bomber ability to that, and you would have had a fat swarm of bombers kicking his teeth in.
You would have had no need for repair if you stayed out of range of his missiles and let your strikecraft do the fighting. In that case, his special ability would be completely nullified, and yours (bombers) would be a huge asset.
The fact that in your screenshot of a carrier dying you have a SWARM OF FIGHTERS is the smoking gun. Terrible!!! Those fighters were doing nothing for you! You obviously had strikecraft superiority and you were not capitalizing on it.
In my opinion the problem with this approach is the skirantra is not built for attacking other capital ships directly. Although I do agree a carrier cap is preferred to negate a carrier cap rush, support ships are needed to finish the job.
In my opinion only one skirantra would be needed to counter a early sova rush. If he only brings one Sova, a Skirantra plus a kortul, plus a couple of support to deal with his disciples would easily bring down a single sova. For the Kortul, skip jam weapons and go for power surge and then disruptive strike. I'm assuming since he only rushed one sova, he had a Akkan out colonizing while you where pre-occupied with the Sova. However, if he did rush two Sova's a Kortul and Skirantra still win assuming you go for the afore mentioned abilities. The problem with a double rush is they CAN take out your roid before you kill them. So...
Given people don't like to lose their capital ships, make him pay if he wants a single roid in your territory. He's on your turf or if he finishes the bombing you are on equal terms. Hit his cap with decent dps, bring in Ravestra's, or Assailants. You have the early advantage as your Skirantra can heal your entire fleet. You should also be scouting to the planets he arrived from back/and/forth looking for support fleet. And sending scouts to his planets to see what he is building so you can counter him. If he only brought the Sova and a couple of disciples, he is screwed, hit him with Assailants. I bet he will run if his cap's health is lowered enough. If he does move to the next planet because he has the early upper hand, you should already have some static defenses built, repair bay(s) and some cannons.
This is an interesting statement, because during the course of the battle it's possible he had up to 5 Missle Batteries + two disciples + sova, while you had the equavalent of two Assailants + limited repair. Considering LF's can bring down a Capital ship by themselves this does not make for good odds. I think the balance of this game comes from having to make decisions on how to counter an approach. Capital ships are countered by dps, not by repair. Considering you could not deal enough dps to counter a capital and your repair is AM based the battle of attrition is not in your favor with this selected approach IMO.
Double cap with Skirantra would be a bad idea wouldnt it? I thought the design of Skirantra was made to support your fleet with an AoE HEAL which would heal EVERY unit of yours in that area.
Then whats the point of 2 Skirantras when theres only another Skirantra with 1-2 more units to heal.
If i were you i would have spent the resources on fleet first. Light frigates might be a safer start too.
Neither is the Sova which is why its a carrier cap.
Spending more then twice as much money as the enemy is NOT a viable counter.
A single Sova versus a single Skirantra should be an even fight as they are both carrier caps. I don't see what this has to do with player skill.
There are answers to this question, but we are getting sidetracked by addressing it. The point is capships - only capships. Not what I could have done differently or how I could have played better. Is it the intention of the devs that the vasari have NO cap that can go toe to toe with a sova? If so, fine, but I want to hear players, or the devs themselves say it.
Let's take a hypotetical map. 1 homeworld for you, 1 homeworld for your enemy, and 1 roid in between. That's it. Nothing else. Your enemy rushes you with a sova as soon as it hops off the assembly line. You have no time for your "fleet support." What are you going to do?
I was getting rushed by dual halcyons all the time before I ever played this particular game. That's why I started opening with dual skirantras - it was the only cap that could somewhat counter the halcyons. Eggs got slaughtered, kortuls got slaughtered, starbases got slaughtered (all due to bombers) - you need something that can make fighters. Assailants got slaughtered either by fighters, seekers/scouts, or combination thereof. Skirmishers? I don't build skirmishers.
Fair enough. I am willing to test this out with someone anytime New Year's Day or after. Anyone who wants to meet me online, PM me and we will set day/time, screennames, etc.
That's fine, in fact I suggested the idea myself if you read my opening post. But just understand, I have NEVER seen anyone not build a capship to start the game, and if you are proposing that vasari do this, then they are the only race that "shouldn't" build a capship to open. Now, perhaps that's entirely fine - I'm not judging it. I'm totally cool with the idea. I'm simply asking "are you sure you want to 'go there' with this suggestion?" I mean, was this the intent of the devs?
Deciphering the "intent of the devs" feels a little too much like "decipering the will of the gods," methinks. LOL.
Right then. Are you really sure you want me to prove that it was you in the replay I posted? The game that the replay is of, occured 30-40 mins before ur OP. In the replay there are 4 players; TheMouse (myself) and Terr on one team and Nightmare Crush and aktonian and the other.
Now, in addition to the game you describe being very similar to the one I posted and given the time stamp of the game and this thread, I direct your attention to post 139 in this thread https://forums.stardock.com/342141/page/6 made on the 8th of Dec where you clearly state "[you were] "Nightmare Crush" ", albeit refering to a different game in this instance.
Until you post a replay I believe I have given enough evidence to put the onus on you to prove otherwise. The only reason why I have put my foot down in this thread and have been so relentless, is because I cannot stand liars.
Now I shall explain to you why the heck it matters. Your initial argument as to why the sova is over-powered is based upon lies. Lies as to what actually happened in the game we are all talking about in this thread. Ergo, the only way you can maintain your point about the Sova, is by claiming it was a different game where things occurred as you said. This is why it matters.....
Oh yeah, PWNED!
p.s. I never said you fought me directly, in-fact it was Terr that kicked your behind.
p.p.s perhaps I am being a little imature and premature sigining off PWNED
Yeah sure, I can provide these screen-shots. Indeed, it would be my pleasure mate! Sorry about the size of the images.
Please all note the use of language by Nightmare Crush (aka Agent of Kharma) in this last screen-shot.....now where have I read something like that before? Oh yeah, on page one of this thread!
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