Disclaimer: This is just my personal Build.
I understand plenty of people use other builds and they very well might be fantastic.
This is just how I like playing TB.
That being said, I welcome any comments
General Build:
Favor: Blade of the Serpent
Starting Items:Banded Armor/Universal Gadget (My most often used)Banded Armor/2 Combat Health Potions (For sure against a Reg)Banded Armor/1 Combat Health Potion/1 Scroll of Teleporting (For an early gank/save)
Skill Tree:Level 1: Fireball ILevel 2: Rain of Ice ILevel 3: SaveLevel 4: Fireball II and Rain of Ice IILevel 5: Deep Freeze ILevel 6: SaveLevel 7: Fireball III and Rain of Ice IIILevel 8: Frost Nova ILevel 9: SaveLevel 10: Fireball IV and Rain of Ice IVLevel 11: Frost Nova IILevel 12: Deep Freeze IILevel 13: Deep Freeze IIILevel 14: Deep Freeze IVLevel 15: Fire and IceLevel 16: Biting ChillLevel 17: Frost Nova IIILevel 18: Fire Aura/Fire NovaLevel 19: Fire Aura/Fire NovaLevel 20: Fire Aura/Fire NovaGear:1 - Unbreakable Boots2 - Nimoth Chestplate3 - Wand of Speed4 - Hauberk of Life5 - Vlemish/Battlecrown, depending on playstyle.
In a game against large burst, I recommend the Orb of Defiance. If a game goes on long enough, swap Banded Armor for Journeyman's Boots. Same health, +15% speed and a you-can't-catch-me proc.Universal Gadgets are almost always in my inventory. Use em to save your team-mate, save a tower, save yourself, or kill someone. No other item is that versatile. Do not get sigils.
Abilities:Fireball:-This is your bread and butter spell. You need to cast this as much as possible. -Towers (Even if the defending demigod moved just a little outside range). You can and will rack up a LOT of damage if you are on the ball.-General Monks *-You need to be very careful around Unclean Beast with Fireball, as he can get in range to spit during Fireball's cast. Back off and after a few times you will get a feel for when someone's retreat point is reached (Each player is different.) Target fireball the SECOND he turns around. It will hit him on his ass on his way out while hes out of range for spit.-This spell casts VERY slow and is VERY obvious. You need to be careful around: Oak - Frost Torch Bearer - Lord Erebus What you need to do is fake cast and cancel before the cast is half way (or VERY close to finished for LE.) and when they interrupt you, recast.-When you activate BotS, Fireball II and on will net a gain, so after you use BotS, Fireball SOMETHING so it's 'free' and you gain mana.-When people are running, look for corners, if you run to a corner you can sometimes get in range for a last Fireball. Do this as often as possible. Make SURE you send them back with that last fireball.Rain of Ice:-This spell is increadible. It's your spell for Mana, Experiance and Damage.-Be Tactful about it's use. Wait for a wave of creeps to be included if the spell can wait a few seconds.-Avoid using this as a single target spell as often as possible.-Try to include as many targets as possible in the AoE.-When alone in a lane, ensure you RoI so the AoE hits the grunts AND the tower. When alone at a lane, use FB as soon as the cooldown is up multiple times until you see the creep wave, hit BotS, drop RoI and Fireball the tower again. The efficiency is fantastic. You can usually drop 2 fireballs between the creep waves and 2 fireballs and a RoI should hurt your mana, so the BotS fills you back so you're ready to drop more fireballs (and the first will give you more mana back due to BotS. If you do this every other creep wave, you won't ever have to stop casting. Obviously you won't be just by yourself at a tower often, but look for chances. If they leave you alone, punish that tower.-Try to keep at least half of the mana needed for a RoI. Makes it MUCH easier to keep topped off on mana with BotS.-The range on this spell is obscene. If someone is running and you can still see them, chances are you can RoI them.-The attack speed debuff is often overlooked. TB hits like a truck WITHOUT gear (other then BotS) so you can AA someone down if needed. The Attack Speed debuff is great for helping you get that edge so RoI right before you both AA.-Biting Chill is an amazing addition to RoI (if the game gets this far). It is GREAT for shatters, but sometimes the 75% reduction is FAR more benefitial. RoI at range and it will help a LOT with attrition as HP/MP regen slows to a crawl.Deep Freeze:-I've been using this spell wrong. Thanks to Pacov for explaining how it works NOW.http://forums.demigodthegame.com/372375-Deep Freeze is another AMAZING spell. It's a great interrupt, but it also has it's amazing cooldown effect. Much like Mark of the Betrayer, if an ability is used while the Deep Freeze debuff is active, it's NEXT cooldown is increased by whatever lvl Deep Freeze you have. -This is your best friend against Unclean Beast. It is rather difficult, but you can interrupt Spit. Let him chase you to spit (and you know hes going to, it's all that bastard does) and when hes JUST outside of Deep Freeze Range, target it. In the time it takes you to turn and line up Deep Freeze, his spit will go off and you're .1 second cast finishes before his .3 cast. And theres NOTHING on this earth that's more enjoyable for me then to watch an UB choke on his own vomit.)-At 13, you start doing respectable dmg with a double shatter (650) but skyrockets at 15. (1,275).-Obviously, this is a spell that will help greatly with portal locks. Watch for the fucker to fiddle with an item and hit him asap. Some people are very good with Deeking interrupts so if you see someone starting and stopping a case, just wait and have DF targeted over them and wait for the next time they start the effect. The second you see then stop moving from a fake cast, hit em with DF. Frost Nova:-Of the novas you get to select with this build, this is the one I select 90% of the time. You can only get one level of the nova you select until level 16 and I feel that the Stun, even if for a short while, is better then 400 damage.-Don't forget that level 1 Frost Nova, while it only stuns Demigods for 1 second, stuns stuns buildings for 6. This includes Rook's Towers. Look for times to run past two towers to finish someone if they are relying on them for protection.-Watch for allies going past towers for a kill. Freeze it on the way out for them.-Seeing as everyone plays Cat, this works great to get by and cap a flag without needing to take out the towers as you can simply run by. Remember you still need to get out if you don't have a scroll.
*(Extreamly important. Generals who dont micro will leave their minions back for a few seconds when they retreat. Take advantage and autoattack them a few times and if needed, finish with a fireball. You are in a mana war and you have unlimited {to a point}, they do not. Make them cast monks over and over.)
General Torch Bearer:Tips:-With this build, try to start most fights in Fire mode. Switching from Fire to Ice is much faster and simpler then from Ice to Fire. Get your fireball off and swap.-Swap often. Capping a flag? Swap back and forth. +75 weapon dmg and +50% mana regen is really nice.-Patience. You will need a LOT of this with TB. You wont be able to just run in and muscle someone out of a lane. It takes tact and time. You need to chip away at them until you are sure you have the upper hand.You will need to Wait ALL the time. Wait for BotS to be off cooldown, wait for grunts to arrive for the next RoI, wait for the right moment for a fireball. You have to get used to waiting.-Experiance is EXTREAMLY important. No matter what you're doing, keep an eye out for grunts you can farm. Always try to level up as FAST as possible. Hitpoint stacking hurts TB more then anyone else so getting 4, 7, and 10 early can REALLY swing the game in your favor.-Level 15 is your trump card. You can MELT people with your 3,425 burst. But if the games goes on much longer, you'll lose the Window of this combo's effectivness and end up on a tight spot.-You are SUPREME at tearing down towers. Your autoattack is HUGE from the get go and when grunts go in as fodder, even if you can just hit the tower 5 times (at level 1) that's over 1,000 damage. Fireball while waiting for re-enforcements and ensure that when you RoI to kill the grunts, the AoE hits the tower too. At later levels, when Frost Nova isn't killer on the mana, you can use it to delay your fodder from dying and be damaging a tower that much longer.
Tactics Per Demigod:Now, these are pretty much just general tips. It's all stuff I've done to help me in multiple games, but just I said, it's always different per player.GeneralsLord Erebus:Against:-Know that Bat Swarm is coming. This goes for every DG. So many people on my side just seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that he can Bat even though he's killed them because they didn't prepare once already.-Deep Freeze RIGHT before he gets in Bite range. Force him to endure a long cooldown on Bite. This right here is enough to push many LE players back. My guess is they don't feel safe without bite ready.-Fake out your fireballs against a good LE. If you're good, you'll juke his mist, he'll waste mana, and you still hit him.-Freezing Minions with Frost Nova saves lives. Do it.-Just like UB, be VERY careful about over extending. -Early game, you can surprise LE with your AA damage. Let him run at you and bite and AA him and he will get quite the chunk taken.-Deep Freeze his Stun. It's really easy to spot and hear.With:-My favorite 2v2 partner.-When you're fighting with an Erebus, count on him to finish people. You just want to weaken people to about 50% or less. Erebus should Bat in and apply a LOT of pressure. -Mist is a GREAT ability to buy time. If you can buy 10 seconds with a TB trying to push people back, you have a much better chance of living. -Stand in mist. Its not much healing, but it helps.-Same as minion Oak, save RoI till when LE is nearby so he gets minions-Watch for Bite. It only lasts 5 seconds, but your AA will hit harder and they will NOT outrun you. Take advantage when you can-Time your stuns together. Let him go first. His will last longer. While they're stunned, get into a good nova position. Use yours as they are leaving as it has a slow component. -Retreat a LOT. No one can punish over-extending like LE can. Keep pots on you to lure the enemy into a good LE pounce position.Oak:Against:-Juke Pent by canceling Fireball erratically.-If you think he is going to shield, Deep Freeze right before he does. His cooldown will be quite some time afterward. Doesn't work with level III shield and on.-Interrupt SoF whenever possible. Oak and his allies rely on this skill a lot to escape and chase people down. -If you can time a Frost Nova right, you can catch an Oak off guard and take away a precious second for him to shield. I noticed they all like to wait till the very end. -If you are fighting a minion Oak, Frost Nova is often better then Fire Nova. Freezing the minions will give you a brief period to work Oak himself. Doubly better if he has the Horn of Battle as its a PAIN to kill em anyway. Better to just take them out of the picture. Also, ensure you watch for him going for Towers. Freezing them next to a tower helps.-Learn to hate him for his shield. It's lame and the more people that hate him for it the better.-It's a long haul with Oak, but after level 4 (or level 2 if he didn't go for BotF) you should be able to whittle him down.-If he is stacking health then his mana should be more limited. Force him to recast minions by killing them whenever you get the chance. -Going to emphasize interrupting SoF. I've biffed a few times not catching a clutch Deep Freeze opportunity to kill SoF during a getaway that got me caught and hurt.-Oak is terrible at taking out minions early on. Once you get priests, the health upgrade will hurt Oak as his SoF won't be able to take them down nearly as fast.With:-My 2nd favorite to 2v2 with. (Be it in a 3v3 and just 2 of us on a side or a 2v2)-Be patient with your burst. Check his mana (You HAVE to have the UI mod), if he has enough for Pent, wait for it. When he Pents, UNLOAD on who he pented.At: (Assuming highest Pent and full burst)lvl 4 - 93 more damage.lvl 7 - 189 more damage.lvl 10 - 296 more damage.lvl 15 - 548 more damage.lvl 20 - 676 more damage.Just for reference.-If Oak is going to SoF to chase a weak DG, hit your wand of speed if you have it, run AHEAD of the DG and Frost Nova. The point of the Frost Nova isn't the stun for 1 second, its the 10% slow for 5 seconds. That combined with SoF, Oak should be able to catch up while you RoI/Fireball.-Oak is ballsy with his shields, try to make life easier on him by freezing towers if he runs past the point of suicide for you.-On that note, make sure you pay attention to the situations Oak runs into. I've been Bus'ed by plenty of Oaks, lol.-You should always have a speed advantage with Oak. SoF/Frost Nova/Pent can make sure one person is catchable if they retreat.-If you're with a minion Oak and you're both at a grunt wave, wait for him to drop his ward. RoI will reward you both with exp, you with gold, and Oak with Spirits.Occulus:Against:-No interrupt. Fireball away!-Watch for crazy bounces with Chain Lightning. Never assume you're out of range when there are other targets near you.-Watch for Occ getting close. When he does his buttjump next to you, he hits twice. Following with Chain Lightning can be quite the burst.-Try to keep distance between yourself and your allied when facing Occ. All his dmg is pretty much AoE so you'll help his cow-ass out by keeping close to each other.-Remember his port. Either chasing or running, remember the threat exists. -Its an EXP race against a good Occ. Make sure you win that race. You're both nukers and if hes nuking better, your team has quite the disadvantage.-At the start of the game, remember Occ has crazy mana issues. You can nuke FAR more often until he gets helms. Then you will have the HP advantage for a bit in the early game. If he goes straight HP, make sure you cast a LOT more then him to make him pay.-Watch for the death-balls at lvl 15. That's HIS trump card. Worry about it.With:-WIPQueen of Thorns:Against:-Don't stare, she hates that.-Watch for her to open up. when she goes into open form and moves toward a group of creeps or a tower its a safe bet shes going to AoE. Interrupt that crap.-Try to keep track of your damage and her level. Assume she took the highest shield ASAP, because its more often then not, true. -As soon as you break her shield, Deep Freeze. Swap as SOON as fireball finishes so you can still catch it. You have a snowball's chance in hell of catching the interrupt (I have a few times, but NEVER depend on it) but if she casts it when Deep Freeze is on (and you know Queens, they don't like not having a shield), her next will be 130% longer cooldown. Try to time this when you know you can chase/burst her down after she shields, otherwise you just saved her mana.-Watch the damn Spike Wave. That damn thing has a HUGE range and the movement speed debuff HURTS.-Fireball away. She can't stop you.-Frost Nova is great for her minions. If you miss an Interrupt on Ground Spikes, Frost Nova. Her minions are her damage. They will be frozen the full duration of the Ground Spike debuff so it doesn't help her much.-Watch the Shamblers. If one is running at you, chances are its going jihad on your ass. (When they are mulched, they AoE. So be careful)With:-I haven't gotten a chance to truely 2v2 with a QoT, though I do want to.-Some ideas I'm looking forward to trying:-Ground Spikes/+100 Weapon Damage together-Frost Nova/Spike Wave slows.-Being with a QoT period allows you to be a little less causious, just be aware how much dmg the shield you currently have has taken-I wanted to try a QoT who uses Mulch for AoE dmg with me. It's cheap as balls (but the minions aren't, lol)Sedna:Against:-Heal Interrupts are epic. Sedna usually expects the heal to go through without a hitch. The heal interrupts are hard, but can be a sick move.-More often then not, it's better to treat heal like Shield with QoT. If you miss Deep Freeze, the duration is over before her next heal casts. If you cast it before she heals and she does, shes got quite the wait ahead of her.-BUT! If Sedna is running and you're chasing, have Deep Freeze ready and your mouse over her. The SECOND she stops, Deep Freeze. Not only did you interrupt heal, but she stopped to do it so you could catch up.-When a Sedna is barreling at you, what is she gunna do? Pounce! This is an easy version of interrupting spit. Wait till shes right on you and Deep Freeze her. I stopped 8 in a row at the start of a game. Saved me a HELL of a lot of damage AND dragged Sedna further from safety as it is a melee range ability.-Early priests are great against Sedna too. She sucks against grunts. -Silence at the wrong time hurts. Careful if you noticed her use it once.-At the start of the game, Sedna is cake. Just attrition her and you will burn her mana and she will have to leave.-At the end of a long game (15+), Do not shatter Sedna. The -75% Regen is a HUGE boon to you as her Regen will be nut-so.-I kinda just read over Hedge saying this like 3 times, lol. Once Sedna gets lvl 3 heal, it dispells Deep Freeze before it can hurt her cooldowns. I liked how he worded it so:"since you'll force her to either heal no one for 5 seconds, heal 1 other person once then be on cooldown for the rest of the battle or heal herself and wait for 7 seconds to heal someone else"-awuffleablehedgie With:-WIPAssassins:Unclean Beast: Against:-Obviously, Unclean is going to be the biggest pain when it comes to the life of a Torch Bearer. I take GREAT pleasure in working an Unclean Beast. -The most important thing to remember is never Fireball an Unclean who's spit you haven't seen recently used. 300 dmg compared to 500 damage isn't a good trade. -Hang back and pelt with Rain of Ice when grunt waves arrive and when you feel you can (IE: hes about to pull back a few yards), target Fireball. -Deep Freeze is amazing for stopping Spit. If you don't trust your judgment for interrupting it, hit him with it right before he spits so his next is a much longer cooldown. -Later in the game, he will feel ballsy enough to chase you into towers so do not count on them for defense. -Time Frost Nova so it his him RIGHT before he is within Grasp Range and back off. -UB has the highest armor (Which is stupid) so your auto attack will be the least effective on him. That's good to know.-When there is an UB in the game, avoid over extending. More-so then anyone else (tied with Erebus though)-Be careful of UBs luring you with low health, just to sigil after he pulls you far enough from safety. This is most dangerous with this asshole.With:-Time you're stuns. Remember, his goes first cause yours has a slow. -As with Erebus, look to make your opponent over-extend.-Use your interrupts. You don't have priests, you will need to prevent as much dmg as possible.-Remember the bastard has ooze and will kill all those juicy RoI/BotS targets before RoI can land-That's all I got for him for now. lol. I hate UB.
Rook:Against:-Rain of Ice is devastating to Rook. He AND his towers taking damage is a no good situation for him. Try to time them with Grunt waves for even more efficiency.-Frost Nova is your biggest asset against a Tower Rook. If you get assistance, before the Rook notices, run slightly behind him and Frost Nova to clear the way for your ally.-Every time Rook tries to forward his line, fireball his face.-If he is hiding back in his towers, use fireball to take out old ones.-Deep Freeze can work to great effect if you hit Rook right before his tower rises. You can DRASTICALLY slow how quick he can raise his farm.-Rook has a lot of hitpoints, but his armor is low. Use your beefy Auto attack to chip away whenever you get a chance. This is very effective at the start of the game. Also very useful with Frost Nova.-Time your fireballs with your grunt waves, you can move much further forward while they act as fodder. Towers seem to target grunts before Demigods, so take advantage when you can. -Deep Freeze Hammer slam, duh.-Try to predict Boulder Rolls, it can be an epic interrupt if you do it at the right time. Deep Freeze can KILL the cooldown for boulder Roll, so if you know hes going to use it, (IE: Hes been using it to interrupt your Fireball) its always a good idea. With:-WIPRegulus:Against:-Always have a pot. Always. You're more then likely going to take the brunt of snipes. -Don't let yourself stay out with low health too long. -Priests early will help more with Reg (and UB) then anyone else. -Let grunts take mines. If he takes the time to mine up a flag. Just be patient and wait for the next grunt wave.-Observation Wards Observation Wards Observation Wards Observation Wards Observation Wards.-Ok, this has netted me a kill when I really needed it plenty of times. Whenever you are fighting Reg and he retreats into the Fog of war. 9 times out of 10 he is going to snipe you. If he is low on health, take a shot in the dark by running forward and casting a max range RoI. You'll be surprised (and so will he) how many times this works.-Other then the snipes, Reg is meat for you. He can't stop Fireball in any way and has no other ways to mitigate damage without General or Priest support. -Watch for the Mines-at-the-feet when casting FB. Cancel FB and move back when you see him tossin'.-If you get caught with MotB in an intense fight, back off to your tower. Changing forms will trigger it and ensure it doesn't hit you at a very bad time.-It's important to out-level Reg. If he is able to beat you to 4 or 7 and is a snipe spec (a good snipe spec), it WILL hurt. Bad.With:-Its a tough road to hoe, but you're just the joe to hoe it.-If Reg is on the ball, you will be able to apply plenty of pressure. You're goal is to have them afraid of the sudden dmg. -If you're fighting together, you need a scorched earth game. Let him retreat first to get mines setup, then retreat over them. Never try to out muscle anyone.-Carry Universal Gadgets. You will need them. -Call for snipes when you need them. Prefferably about 7 seconds after a Fireball so that you can FB/RoI and have snipe land in between-You're the only one who can interrupt. Remember that. You will need to be good.-Early priests helps a LOT! Yo-Take advantage of shop trips. You should be able to have them retreat enough to get some good tower dmg in.Demon Assassin:Against:-MOST IMPORTANT!: Do Not run far from DA when he has backup. ALWAYS STAY IN RANGE TO DEEP FREEZE! Watch for him standing on one leg (or whatever it is he does), and as soon as he does, Deep Freeze and run. I CAN'T stress this enough. The swap can and WILL fuck you if you aren't paying attention. -Careful with Fireball. If your in range to fireball, he is in range to Spine you. His casts caster too, the bastard. It does more damage at the start, so getting the fireball off and letting him spine you doesn't help. -Always remember he can warp RIGHT to you. ALSO note that he can warp to grunts and the like to get away.-DA sucks against grunts. Early priests help a lot against a DA. You'll always have priests to heal you if you're fighting over a lane as he wont be able to kill them. You will though. -Remember the Combo is: Swap, Warp, Spine. Just remember that. It hurts. If you miss the Deep Freeze, your in for a world of hurt.-DA is mana Dependent, unless he goes for passives. If hes not a passive DA, you'll tear him to shreds with his low health. If hes passive, you don't have much to worry about. -If hes actually using Warp Area, RoI about a second after he started it. By the time he finishes, the RoI will land.With:-An Absolute Blast of a Partner-With Warp/Spine/FB/RoI, you have quite a burst to work with. With swap in the mix, it's hard to escape from being bursted even more.-Very squishy. You will need to stack health asap. You can't escape like he can.-Another partner it pays a LOT to have a UG with. He can and will get himself into bad situations. Count on it.-Remember the crazy range of swap. Don't start retreating when he JUST gets in range-The rest is just reacting. The goal is a setup for a good gank. No muscle here. The rest is just experience. You obviously can't describe everything about how you play.Also, all tips are just general and should be taken with a grain of salt. Every encounter is different and every opponent, even same Demigods, play in different ways.
Replays coming soon...
Update 5/2/10:
Cleaned up OP.
Macc was referring to a game where a certain Regulus would time-after-time again walk into a creep wave of giants to throw mines on an Open Queen. The Queen would then Ground Spike and Reg would disappear in about 2 seconds. Once he was like "one heal?" when I was about 50 feet away from him, like he wanted me to buy Wand of Speed AND WarpStone AND Cloak of Night AND Cloak of Elfenkind just so I could have prevented that ONE death.
Sedna doesn't have a weak End-Game... at all. She can still hold flags and she is supremely useful in 2v2+ clusterfucks where CounterHealing, Healing Wind and Silence make a huge difference. However, 1v1 in a creep wave with giants against the vast majority of Demigod will result in her being pushed out everytime. That is why you don't fight in creepwaves end-game as Sedna... As long as you don't do that, you can beat most other demigods.
Good times...
You forgot to mention the DA that swapped into giants...
"I spilled the coffee"
Teseer, I play versus whoever wants to fight me, regardless of stats, I play casually for fun and do not care too much about beating the "elites". Even then, if you don't get the kills versus good players with my build you can drive them out of the lane. Also, what I said about the fireball is that I vary the skill points based on who I am fighting. Obviously, an assassin I can just fireball and back off until they are weak enough usually.
With your build, instead of permafrost you would have deep freeze, fireball and RoI at level 3, so you don't have to compensate with your playstyle, but with me I do have to make those early choices based on expedience at the time. Anyway, as you said, we all play a little differently. Nothing is perfect, and I depend quite a bit on team work. Sometimes I decide to get the 2nd level Rain of Ice later than the Fireball, usually a mistake, but I do what I think will help me at the time.
I'm probably wrong on one or two points, but it has helped me so far.
Also, I do like the Wand of Speed, but I find it too situational. Though it opens a slot for more HP stacking, it also takes away an item slot, one that could be used for TP's, Locks, Sygils or Healing items.
Wand of Speed becomes your OH SHIT button instead of Sigils. Locks + Ports. If you're a proper BotS TB you should be floating around 5-6k hp anyway so you aren't going to die if two people gang up on you if you're speeding away as long as you don't get stun locked.
QFT.
Frost nova helps. Ypu break even when it comes to the stun due to the follow-through, but you getting +25% speed, they get -10%. 35% speed advantage for 5 seconds helps a lot.
I'd prefer sigils + some kind of potion or tp + cap locks. But that is just me. =]
I found sigils a bit of a waste as TB, if I'm in that much trouble as TB that I can't get away, usually an extra 3000 hp wont help, and I'll die anyway. Am considering trying out the Journey Man's Treads, not sure what to drop. Anyone else used them?
see, why waste money on Sigils when you can just play with a Sedna...
I never use sigils.
I use Universal Gadgets instead. The advantage of being able to heal myself or an ally or do a 650 nuke is something I prefer to the benefit of instant cast sigils.
Plus, I think sigils are lame as hell.
The problem with my build is that is that I really need all the mana regen I can get with Frost Aura. Frost Aura III at level 8 with vlemish helm and form dance gives me close to 50 mps. I know I could take BotS and solve my mana problems but that puts me at a disavantage when it comes to speed which I need to cap flags more quickly. The only other skill I could save for later would be RoI which I really dont need to go above level 2 before priest come out. But thats my biggest source of damage and I hate not maxing that out asap. Though to tell you the truth I havent tried maxing out DF first.
I'm not criticizing, I was just curious. It sure screwed me up a few times, lol.
I watched one of your replay and I loved it. Fantastic Frost-bearering! I loved watching your quick ass running around. I needa watch it again to give any details, hehe.
I prefer Wand of Speed over sigils for the following reasons:
- If you use it like Teseer's guide suggests you do, in other words as often as you can, you will be sprinting around the map much faster and farming up the heavy creeps much better when they hit the table... the extra farming gold alone can pay for the item and then some in my opinion. If you happen to use the extra speed to save a friend or yourself, thats just bonus if you ask me.
- If I use a sigil to save my ass, I've usually been beaten up pretty bad before I make it to the safety of my towers... if I get away at all. Once I'm there I have to go to the crystal cause I'm living on a sigil and need to buy another one anyway. If I use Wand to get away, sometimes I'm in good shape afterwards and just go somewhere else to do my business, or I can just hang around nearby and launch fireballs and icy rain to teach people what happens when you try and gank me.. If they beat me up a little when I used the Wand then I can maybe go somewhere with a friendly general for a minute to heal up because I'm not scared of an enemy dg showing up out of nowhere just as my health drops to nothing as the sigil expires. If they beat the hell out of me and I have to go back to base to heal, then I do it faster. And then I come back to the fight faster. Faster = Outstandingness IMO.
- Speaking of faster, Journeyman's is my favorite late game item as TB. Narmoth's is great and all, but you don't get as much benefit from it as some other demigods do... but don't get me wrong, I still get it of course. Can't really tell you what to drop if I don't know what you have. Don't drop your only armor to get it, make sure to have at least Nimoth on you.
At least someone gets it.
Thunder and both did a TB v TB game yesterday and we both got Wand of Speed. It would be safe to say that if I had used Sigils instead I would have died more than I did because he would have just chased me home with Fireballs.
However, it was fun mind game of Wand of Speed. "I'm going to run away with Wand of Speed! DF you and then Wand so you can't chase me kekekeke"
Which reminds me, TB question:
Here is the setting:
- 2 TBs approach each other on a flag. Both are aware of each other (Reg put a tracking bug?) and both are using this build and are level 8 (so one point in DF). There is a creep wave coming right behind both of us and the flag they are converging on is yellow. Both TBs have sufficient mana to unload any and all skills they want. They also have identical HP. Both TBs took Frost Nova but won't be using it in this skirmish because I said so
My Opponent comes up to me in Fire Mode with the obvious intent of Fireballing me on-sight, then switching to Ice mode and Rain of "Icing" my creeps.
Is it better to match what he is doing (and just simply try to do it better) or is it better to do the following:
Approach in Ice Mode, when he raises to Fireball, DF him then Rain of Ice). If you're lucky you interrupted him. If you aren't, then he has to wait 5 seconds to do so (which means that your creepwave will move forward and do a small amount of damage to him), or forfeit the duel by eating a longer cooldown and losing the damage war.
Then switch to Fire Mode, Fireball. If he chooses to switch to Ice Mode and DF you at this time, he is still going to suffer a longer cooldown on DF, which means your next two Fireballs he will have no interrupt for.
Always try to start a fight with a TB in Ice (unless hes fire, then its do-whatever-you-want)
Fireball is rediculously easy to interrupt, but its also easy to fake, if you notice someone faking, NEVER run from them. If they are smart enough to know that if they START their Fireball cast at max range while your running, you can't interrupt it in time. If I got to pick how to start the fight described:
-Swap Fire-Ice to get buffs.-Watch my creeps, wait till they are on the flag, RoI the creeps at max range. -Deep Freeze Fireball (Or if I miss and he casts, you eliminate the next fireball anyway)-AA a few times-Shift to Fire after he shifts back to Fireball after dropping RoI (Try to only be in Fire when he CANT interrupt or your baiting it)-Its a rough fight, two identical TBs that is. The battle comes down to Interrupts, Timing on RoI/Fireball (due to Deep Freeze debuff) and who gets more AAs in and who spent more time swapping forms
Just askin again:
A lot of people played(playing) TB in the tourney.
Any input from ya'll?
I learned now to play fucked up out of my mind (In the bad way, not the good way)
Sorry man... The only thing I learned that you can't play an effective TB if you're completely out of practice cause of crappy internet...
Watched your replays. IMO, you have to tailor your TB build to your enemies if they have a rook on their team. Fire Nova goes from the worst spell in our arsenal to the best when Homey G Rook Money starts planting towers... and a BotS TB not getting any fire circle against rook is downright criminal.
Sorry to come off critical... you could write a novel on how shitty my games were... even the ones we won, Hedgie had to go the extra mile to carry my ass.
um.. I suppose I played TB in the tourney. However, I played fire ftw tb lol.
1. Circle.. this helps to push ppl out of the middle @ lvl 1 and kills your creeps faster to get you to 2.
2. Fireball (duh! lol)
3. Fire Aura
4. Fireball II
5. Fire Nova or Aura 2
6. Fire Nova or Aura 2
7. Fireball III
8. Fire Aura 3
9. Circle II or Save
10. Fireball IV and/or Fire Nova II
Max circle and get inspirational flame. Then you have a choice. Sometimes I'll get multiple points in frost nova to ensure I don't get interrupted for a lock. Otherwise I'll max deep freeze to go for the 1350 fireball @ 20.
Anyway.. the build is pretty standard. Occasionally change it up to get more points in circle early, sacrificing aura (against rook, a minion heavy person, or if I'm pushing gold / celerity flag towers and don't need the speed)
Favor: BotF. Hooray staying power. You're HP stacking ftw, so.. gogo
Starting items: Banded armor / Scaled helm.
First shop: Unbreakable boots / tp. Pot or sigil or fs1 if you want.
Rarely will I have more money than this when I go back the first time. The reason being that I will push the tower as soon as the person leaves the lane. Fireball tower, walk up, circle, aa / fireball again, w/e. Preferably start this when a creep wave is coming and stand just out of range of the circle so the creeps get killed by the circle, you can still fireball, and you get cover while you aa /fireball again afterwards from your creeps.
Next shopping items: Nimoth chestplate, Hauberk of life. Yes, you still have scaled helm, and yes, it's almost always enough mana to do what you want. Rarely will I buy a bigger helm w/out selling scaled. Eventually drop scaled for plenor or vlemish (I usually take whichever I can afford). If you really need the speed, drop banded armor and get boots of speed. You have to be able to follow an opponent, fireball, and still catch back up to aa and fireball again. It's important.
Usually, once I drop one tower, I switch sides with a teammate to drop the other tower. If they're fine and I think they can get it down, I'll stick around. If you're ever left alone if the lane, fireball the side 2 towers. If you have more than one point in circle, go up and drop a circle on both towers then back up and keep fireballing. Usually this will drop you low enough mana / hp you can't take the person who is coming for you. Drop as many fireballs on the tower as possible before leaving the lane and going back to the crystal. The fire aura will ensure that you can run away from any threat If you know someone can't come for a while, I push the tower with aa and oom until I keep hitting it until I drop to a couple hundred hp (usually not unless someone dies or early when the other person goes shopping).
After I get my gear, I almost always save for j-treads (depends on the combo.. but probably 75%+ of my games as tb I get treads around lvl 10-11). You now have 6-7k hp w/out sigil, and can run from anything. Seriously. I ran from enemy cd flag all the way to base from an enemy beast who had j-treads / wand of speed / poison dagger / inner beast / diseased claws. I made it back to base on a sigil with like 400-500 hp.. but ya.
After J-Treads, you can freely harass anywhere. Ideally you will have one set of side towers down. I usually then go to clear out the middle w/ circle and 1050 fireballs. The towers drop pretty fast, and when someone comes, the towers will have proc'd j-treads to quickly run all the way to base to recharge. Tower kills provide 300g each, and will those and creep kills you probably have enough to help out with creep upgrades very quickly after j-treads anyway.
You should be all over the map w/ threads. If you're focused and going down, run away while your teammate(s) beat on them, but don't be afraid to run back with low hp to throw another fireball and chase someone all the way back. You have the speed to run out yet run back in and chase someone else even if they're rather far away
Also, fireball is you best pal. Don't let it get interrupted! I can fake out an Oak's penitence almost every time, and it's important. MOST Oaks go for pen the second they see the fireball animation. I start and cancel immmmediately to draw the pen and then go to town. They are the peskiest interrupt. Ice / hybrid tb will deep freeze.. so don't cast it during the freeze, but a fake cast to draw the freeze while you're running into them makes the freeze drop the buff as soon as possible. If you do get interrupted, not a big deal, you weren't going to cast fireball anyway until freeze leaves. Wait for freeze to drop, then go to town again (I love the town!)
As for swapping.. I swap to keep the buffs up whenever I'm standing still capping a flag or waiting for fireball cd but NEVER in a fight. If I'm standing guarding a flag, I try to swap prior to an engagement, but there isn't always time (need to get the fireball off asap if you plan on fighting or even if you don't )
So ya.. that's my fire tb.
Like I've said before, if you deviate from the build, you don't get the triple shatter. As TB, if you don't have that trump card end game, you're a LOT less useful.
Against a Rook, I don't like RoF. I'd have to give up either Fireball or Rain of Ice. Rain of Ice is the most important spell for the build, as it's (in my opinion) TB's BEST spell with BotS. Filling your mana instantly at range is a HUGE advantage.
Fireball speaks for itself.
You have to have Deep Freeze, you gotta, and I'd only be able to get one point in RoF otherwise, which is obviously not useful.
Edit: Lol, I replied as if you said RoF, not FN.
Anyway:
I loathe Fire Nova. The extra damage is not worth the huge mana cost unless you hit BotS each time you cast. One time every 45 seconds SUCKS.
Also, Frost nova is the better nova, as it can freeze his towers, allowing your team-mates 6-8 seconds to screw with Rook free of towers.
Big fan of the Teseer Triple Shatter Copyrighted 2009 All Rights Reserved... but TB's endgame is so strong with a lot of builds, I think you could do without it as a trade off to not letting a Rook have his way with your team early game. 3v3 standard rules a Rook ain't that big a deal, but in my experience you need to be the one on tower extermination detail in a 2v2 game unless your teammate is better equipped to do it... which was never the case in this tourney IMO.
Okay, I exaggerated a little... Fire Nova is still great against a rook though. It does damage just outside of their attack range and it actually recharges your mana which isn't reliable against creeps... unlike RoI which is truly the best ability when combined with BotS.
The triple shatter is what makes THIS build strong end game.
Fire Nova might be a nice ability, but it has no place in my build. You can select it instead of Frost Nova, but that is far superior to Fire Nova when it comes to Rook (or games in general) as it is the only stun in the game that can effect towers.
Fireball/RoI are fantastic for taking out towers. Theres no need to have another spell that's just going to drain your mana. You should be casting FB/RoI almost every chance you get, having Fire Nova in with that is just a waste. RoI is a ranged version Fire Nova for all needed purposes (other then throwing creeps in the air, which isn't needed in a game with normal settings).
Edit2: Making the post prettier
Fire TB: You're about burst, no? Well, at lvl 15, your burst is 1850. That's not much. Fire Aura and being fast is nice, but end game has room for a LOT more abilities/stuns so you strength just becomes something you have to use constantly running away. RoF is nice, but its too situational to include in burst damage. It's use was towers and by this point they shouldn't still be standing, so it's biggest benefit is gone.
Disagreed here. Yes, all about burst in the beginning. However, speed starts to take precedence when you can fireball and still catch up to chase down with auto attack, yet still run away from a port in gank. Also, the way some people use RoF, agreed, it cannot be included... however, if you do it intelligently.. you'll either get what you want (like a portal @ lvl 15) or you can factor it into the burst, and it's a nice aoe against everyone fighting on that flag.
I've actually found my use for RoF to be split 50/50. One to hold the lane, 2 to take down towers. But with 6-7k hp @ lvl 15, I can tank all day.. and it'll definitely be in my RoF. I'll tank beasts 1v1 if necessary.. however ideally doing that w/out taking the auto attack damage, just dancing back and forth dropping fireballs while he's deciding whether or not he wants to stand in my RoF to take a flag. I'll probably end up sigiling, but I can turn around and drop some more fireballs on him to force a sigil as well if I had to do it first.
I was more pointing out the fact that the Fire TB being the Burst TB is not true. I do agree that you pretty much just run around and Fireball at that point.
And I still won't include RoF in Burst. Even if they stand in the ring the whole time, it's still over time.
I'd like to make it clear that I'm not arguing that any build is better than yours. I like your build, I've used your build, Its a great build... unless you're fighting a Rook 2v2 IMO which coincidentally is how you got knocked out of the tourney?
Maybe that was a bad day or you were out of practice, lord knows I can relate to that, but it didn't seem like there was much you could do alone in the lane with a rook with your build. A Rook is not a problem for TBs usually, but 2v2 without an Oak or Erebus on your team it just brings back memories of having some prick Orc player tower rush you in WC3... a slow death no matter what you do.
Anyway, heres my take on late game TB:
It can be about mass burst damage with your triple shatter but I prefer to concentrate on hit and run tactics while destroying enemy creep waves as quickly as possible. If you're using Fire Aura to run back to base quicker after getting beat up on then you're using it poorly. Its about fireball kiting, hitting and running, zipping around the map so you can farm more efficiently, dancing into your creepwave as your opponent approaches them so your giants turn into hard, pipe hitting niggers right as your opponents creeps all just disappeared from RoI and he suddenly becomes their only target.
If you and your allies have played a good game, you should be the highest level player in the game, potentially one of the fastest players in the game, and if you've specced fire aura you should be not adding, but multiplying a 15% bonus to your armory attack bonuses you're buying for your creep waves... not to mention your creeps will be moving 15% faster into position to attack when you're around as well... and that 15% movement bonus sometimes means the difference of your creeps disengaging and marching off to die or sticking on your opponent and pounding on him as he tries to leave them behind. With fire aura you dominate any fight in your creep wave and your opponents don't have their creep waves to fight in cause you've used RoI and Circle of Fire to exterminate them... for me thats a pretty solid endgame but usually gets screwed up from my impatient ass feeding early.
Edit: I just prefer playing hybrid hence my bitter commie/real men comments... Fire TB is probably way more effective than my style most games.
I got knocked out of the tourney by Vicoden, lmao.
Love the late game TB comments!
Never thought of the getting creeps to a base faster...I've actually been getting Fire Aura in those long games from 18-20, so I'm defiantly gunna try that.
I wasn't taking any offence by any comment, I love TB discussion!
Oh, and Re: Hit and run:
When you can hit and run with a 2k+ burst, its a lot more effective. You just don't have the speed to make up for it, except if you have the Wand of Speed.
One of the biggest mistakes I've seen is when people shatter a Frost Nova when they need the speed debuff to help them escape.
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