…A few quick notes…
The point of DEVELOPER journals and the early Elemental beta is to let people, like ourselves, who are hungry for this type of game to be made the opportunity to participate in the kinds of “design meetings” that are typically closed to the public.
A typical BETA program in the modern sense is more of a late-game marketing exercise designed to help provide good publicity. This is not one of those betas.
When these developer journals are posted, the idea is to solicit feedback, ideas, and concepts from you guys. But too often, I get the distinct impression that people think that we are TELLING users how things are going to be rather than talking with users. These journals are not designed to be “previews” (unless they actually say that somewhere).
…So with that in mind…
In this discussion, we got some great ideas.
Here are some general thoughts on that feedback in no particular order:
A player is trying to give a history to their channeler.
History
Talents
Weaknesses (give points back to pick more items)
These are some examples.
I know it would be a lot of work and maybe conflicts fundamentally with Stardock's vision for the game, but I would actually like to see the channeler as a full-blown RPG character who you can continue to customize in the game as he/she levels up, finds ancient tomes, makes choices in events and so on. Perhaps even with some sort of 'talent tree'.
All great ideas.
There should certainly be significant customization for your magical abilities as well. I"m not sure if this is the right place to talk about that or if magic will be customized elsewhere. Again, MoM is the obvious inspiration here, with both overall magical abilities and choice of the particular types of specializations.
Some background choices might open up particular research trees or buildings that are not otherwise available, like the good / evil options in GalCiv 2, but more focused. For example, there might be some ruins that could only be accessed by a sovereign with a particular blood line, or that would be different if they were accessed by a sovereign with that blood line. An ancestor's tomb would be one possibility - mostly barren for most sovereigns, but if you are descended from them, you can interact with their ghosts. Maybe have access to bits and pieces of leftovers from the pre-cataclysm times.
Rather than pick from a list at character creation, I'd like to see these traits develop organically as the player makes in game decisions. Build lots of troops=Warmonger Build lots of Inns=Leader Develop lots of treaties=Trade bonus Questing=Adventurer. You get the idea. Even present the player with some early decisions. The forge needs rare metal to construct an anvil but the farmers are complaining strange animals are eating the crops. You only have time to complete one of the two missions which will you choose? These in game actions could shape your soverign. Decendants could gain some traits from their parents and develop a few on their own. Thoughts?
[quote who="larienna" reply="25" id="2468072"]Another quik replyBut the most interesting part is that the player does not know the effect on the stat of each choice they pick up. So they are more likely to create more living characters rather than stat boosted characters.
The downside is that sources like Gamefaqs.com will provide the numbers behind the choices. Forcing the players to find the data leads to frustration. Perhaps an option to show/not show the stats so the more RP oriented players can have the choice of a more organic developement?
It's important to have a choice by which you can tie a Sovereign to a particular Civlization (the one you previously selected). In new games with that particular Civilization, that Sovereign would appear as one of the availables but not with any other. Why? Because if you tie with to a concrete civilization, that should give you access to specific perks/talents/traits/advantages/disadvantages/flaws/... related to it.
As I said in another thread, the Sovereign grows up in a concrete enviroment. If you don't tie him to a civilization you get the usual things but if you tie him to a civilization, it means that he really feels identified by the people of such (in theory, with those he grew up... I also said something about non-humans being grown up in different societies but that's more moddding department). Such identification would mean a better understanding of that people and to be better recognized by them.
Not a very important point by I think it's interest to at least mention it again.
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More in line with the topic, which is just purely traits for the Sovereign and that in no way tie him to a specific civilization:
There is a book and a game. Both are, obviously, different and in some areas they will be the same while in others it won't be possible (a book doesn't have to care about balance, for example). In the end, players are only going to care (mostly, usually) about the bonuses but the presentation of those different bonuses and why you can choose some but not others is important. In the book the presentation of the character has nothing to do with the bonuses but help us to understand the motivation of the character and why he is who he is and why he does the things he does.
As in the book, the Sovereign has a past behind him to the moment in which the story begins. His access to essence and being inmortal define him as Sovereign but his actions as such are not defined by that but how he was raised, the things he learnt and how as a person he is. A knife in your hand doesn't make you an assasin unless you start killing people with it.
According to the Lore a hundred years has passed since the "end of the world". Was the Sovereign alive then? Was he born after? How is the society he was in?
In a such harsh enviroment and with civilizations reduced to tribes at best, some roles that we could consider possible, might not be so possible. And obviously, what could be possible for a human, might not be possible for a fallen.
In the Supposition World our Sovereign could access some different backgrounds, which "simply" reflect that general type of life that the Sovereign had before he started the whole "Sovereign Business":
In those examples, backgrounds are based in possibles roles of the Sovereign during his mundane live (if any). And altough they should have some bonuses/abilities associated with them, their true strength would be in unlocking special traits/skills associated to such backgrounds. If you were a normal merchant without ambitions, with just the Merchant background would be enough. But if you were a good merchant, you surely learnt some tricks that non-merchants could never develop.
Just some simple examples. Some of those traits/skills/perks could be common between those backgrounds if it makes sense (Black Market) while others are exclusive. This makes that not all the traits are available to the player and makes you to choose. You could have more than one background (a Warrior that ended as Merchant) but it would mean you would have access to Warrior and Merchant traits but less points to spend in them.
Then we would have those common traits that anyone can buy: Lucky, Friendly, Blood of the Kings/Emperors, Elemental Attunement, Cursed, Brilliant Mind, Paragon, Zealot... Some of those traits at the same time could lock others (Lucky would prevent you from selecting Unlucky). Altough these traits could have effects in the civilization (a charismatic trait that doesn't affect your civilization would be very bad), if it'd be possible to tie the Sovereign to a specific civilization (with a trait), then it could unlock civilization specific traits for the Sovereign to purchase.
As in with traits unlocked by backgrounds, it'd be nice if traits could be: positive, positive with drawbacks and negative. The last one giving some points instead of costing them.
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When talking in a thread about coats of arms, I found very interesting to have dymanic coats of arms that would change according to your actions and provide some bonuses (minor or whatever, just an idea). People were not fond of it (because of cosmetics?) but in the end is as some people asks here of getting bonuses along the game depending of your actions. And I like that idea. If your Sovereign does nothing but trade all the time, he should become a better trader (get bonuses for it or something like that). Maybe they not need to be Sovereign specific and have them as civilization bonuses (the trading would be done by merchants after all, not that the Sovereign is doing all the trade himself). But in things he is directly involved and that he does quite often (even if he fails), he should get some bonuses. Maybe.
Wouldn't it be interesting if some of your channeler's attributes were reflected in the race they command? So perhaps a Master Warlord attribute would pass on a bonus with melee damage to their units but perhaps a decrease resistance to magic/mental attacks.
The balance problem will definitely be difficult to overcome, especially since I believe all of us want to have a very expansive list and still have a reasonably balanced multiplayer. A possible solution to this would be to simply have several pre-defined sets of Sov options sorted into overall power level (low / medium / high) and any given multiplayer game could limit the maximum power level allowed. Ideally there would still be some options left free to choose under all circumstances as well as a totally open option (as a per-game setting). This could also function in single-player to adjust the strength of the opponents. Coming up with a good set of configurations would be some work, but I'm guessing that we want to have a few pre-defined options for the AI to use, so it would need to be done for those purposes anyway.
On the other hand, all the future posts bickering over a certain combo needing to be moved up or down a category would not be fun.
I suggest that Channers should be able to pick up traits through special events or certain battle conditions. Histories be soley Character gen though.
No. I am not interested at all in multiplayer for this game. Looks like it would be far too long to play (same as civ in my book). anyway, number of design points would clearly be something tuned, particularly against ai's (who could get more points than you for instance).
After reading some posts, here are my thoughts:
Perhaps the customization process could be split into 3 parts-Motives (motivations that influence how your soveriegn evolves)-Achievements (stuff done before the game begins)-Skills/abilities (stuff your soveriegn can do)
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You have the opportunity to select 1, maybe 2 motivations for your soveriegn. This will influence many abilities and skills that the soveriegn might have. Your character might even get bonus points to purchase other stuff in customization (possibly in later levels after the game has begun). You might be able to aquire other motivations later in the game (would require some thought on this). Some early examples are:
Bored noble: You had an easy life when you were young. You would argue that it was also boring. You had to try to find ways to entertain yourself. Because you were easily bored, you lacked the focus to master any major skills in your free time.-Get +5 bonus skill points at first level, +3 bonus skill points each level. These bonus skill points may not be spent on anything that costs more than 3 points.Magus: You have an interest in magic in all forms. You head is full of information, some useful and other garbage. Though reading through musty tomes is time comsuming, you sometimes find a real gem in your finds.-Get +2 skill points per level. These skill points may only be spent on spells or other magic related abilities.-Get a +5 bonus to mana storage capacity of all magic type (ie +5 fire, +5 water, etc.)-You may acquire the achivement "ancient spellbook" at reduced cost-You may acquire the "Grand Magus" motive later in the game at reduced cost.Soldier: You seek battle. You train for battle, and have probally fought a few battles already. Regardless of your past, you seek to be ready for whatever is sent against you.-Get +2 skill points per level. These skill points may only be spent on combat related skills or abilities.-Get +5 health.-You may acquire the achievement "combat arms & armour" at reduced cost-You may acquire the "Warlord" motive later in the game at reduced cost.
Achievements is what the soveriegn has done before the game has begun. This is more likely to give the soveriegn stuff now (at the start of the game) that would otherwise require some game time to get otherwise. You can't buy achievements later in the game (unless you have the magic to rewind time).
Ancient Spellbook: You found, stole, inherited, or somehow got a hold of an ancient spellbook. The book holds secrets that you can make your own... when you are ready.-Get +5 spells known (5 spells are randomly selected, levels 1 to 3, and are added to your list of known spells).-Get +2 quests hints (book might mention books or places that might hold other secrets).Combat Arms & Armour: You have collected, hand crafted, stole, or otherwise acquired combat gear. This gear might not be the best of quality, but it'll give you an edge in early battles until you can properly equip your soveriegn.-Get 3 weak weapons-Get 2 pieces of weak armour-Get 1 minor magic itemOwn a settlement: You have started a settlement before the game even begun. You might have been the first to consider the idea of using essence to fix the land. Alternatively, you had found a town in your travels and managed to convice the towns people to accept your rule.-You start with a small town (no essence is required or spent).
Skills and abilities would be like the skills and abilities that other people have already mentioned, like mason for instance. Other abilities might include being able to shoot small, short range fire balls (which cost no mana to use) instead of relying on more mundane weapons. Many of these skill/abilities can be purchased at multiple levels, each improving on the last.
Minor fireball 1: You can produce a small ball of fire. You can start a camp fire, or light a torch. You can even use it to attack enemies. A wise mage however knows to keep a big stick handy just in case a bunch of common bandits are not so easily scared by minor magic.-You can cast this spell as a combat action. It costs no mana to use, and can deal 1 point of fire damage to any target within 20 ft. (or 6 meters if you prefer).-This ability costs 1 skill point, normal or magic, to learnDefensive Combat Techniques 1: You know how to fight in such a way that minimizes the chance of you getting hit.-You gain +1 bonus to mundane defense. You lose this bonus against any attacker, or attack you are unaware of.-This ability costs 2 skill points, normal or combat, to learn.Mason 1: You know a thing or two about building stuff.-If you are in a town, that town gets 5% reduction in material needs regarding stone when the build order is placed.-So long as you remain in a town, the town gains a +10% build speed of any structure that requires stone.
Thats it for now.
Quick reply:
What about customizing how your sovereign prioritizes and biases certain aspects of the world of Elemental?
Such as;
Honey Affinity (lulz)- Your Sovereign has grown to obssess over honey within the last several years. Determined to suck the world dry of all honey, your Sovereign will go to extreme lengths to collect as much of the sweet ambrosia for himself. +10% food production, +10% building speed for all honey tiles(costs points)
Sword Rebuffer- Your Sovereign, who's family cared not for the sword and war, died by it's razor edge when you were but a wee lad. Ever since, you have been disdainful towards the devastating technology. You are always apprehensive to forge and research variations of the sword. Breakthroughs of the "sword" type are 20% more difficult to achieve and weapons of the "sword" type take 35% more resources and time to forge when equipped to a unit in production(adds points)
It's basically the same idea as stated in the OP, but far more specific and directly impactive on your game experience. Along with "Merchant" and "Mason" backgrounds, you could add things like "Gold Leper" that increases your total income, but decrease happiness and increases chances of encountering a "Bribery Scandal" random event. etc.
Finally, the major difference...Have random and player incited events that you can make one of 12 or so decisions for, each having different consequences and each contributing to one of these traits.
For example. RANDOM EVENT: Another player has found a large beehive colony and is willing to trade it to you in exchange for 5thousand of your citizens to be sold into slavery. The person offering is also the opposite of your race(fallen/humans). What will you do?
A.) Thats a toughy, alright I can't resist....send them away and seal the deal. (+2 Honey Affinity(+20%food production and +20% building speed on honey tiles) -5000 citizens in a city of your choice and +100 honey)
B.) This is an outrage! Alas, we need that honey! Send the men! To arms!!! (+1 Honey Affinity (+10% food production and building speed on honey tiles) , +1 War Mongerer (+10% building speed of all military units) Declare war on playerx.
C.) 5000 citizens! Hmmm....Tell playerx that Ill send 3000 and we'll have a deal! (+1Honey Affinity(' ') +1 Shrewd Merchant (+20% revenue from trade and +10% success in the "Civ Trade" menu)
D.) etc.
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I just read this, and I really like this idea! This should definitely be added to the game.
I agree with this. Traits should create large bonuses and penalties and have a real impact on gameplay.
From the top of my mind:
Mr. Average: You seem like "one of us" to everyone but the elite. The risk of revolt from the lower classes is minimal, but the elite looks down on you, giving your enemies an easy way to get spies into your kingdom.
Bad childhood - self-medication: Due to an unhappy childhood you have sought ways to soothe your pain, finding it in consumables. Potions are twice as effective for you, but you risk getting addicted.
Bad childhood - what doesn't kill you makes you stronger: You survived a tough childhood through strength of body and mind, but now feel contempt for weak people. + resistances - diplomacy towards weaker opponents
Bad childhood - helper: You never want anyone to suffer like you had to. You gain access to special healing spells, but suffer an XP penalty whenever any of your troops die, due to the pain and stress it causes you.
Perfectionist: You always strive for perfection. It takes X% longer for you to produce anything, but you gain X% bonus to the effects of this building.
Love it, it's like the grand game Tropico!
I really like this. 12 options seems kinda high, but 4-5 seems right on track. The great thing is, short of prestigue, which effects population, there's no "good" or "bad" there are only choices and their consequences.
I saw one little thing I would like to nit pick. I saw the trait 'Diplomatic Ability' and I don't like that in games. Diplomatic skill will never fool a rival into going against his own interest, and diplomatic clumsiness will never dissuade a rival from a deal that benefits him. Some game's diplomacy models are totally broken by the idea of 'diplomatic skill'.
"You rudely offer to give me a whole city and all your money and ask nothing in return? Get outta my palace you cretanous barbarian!"
Please do have the spreadsheet option as well as the story stuff. Picking RPish attributes is cool the first couple times, but after that I definitely prefer to have all the available information in a single location where I can compare costs and benefits.
Does everyone else have as many fond memories of playing Rome: Total War for hundreds of hours, as I do? One of the best aspects of R:TW was the way in which your faction leader and generals would evolve throughout the game, partially determined on who their parents were, in what type of environement he was raised, and how and what he performed throughout his life. There were dozens and dozens of different traits and retinue members to configure and make each general the most beneficial. I would hope that channelers and their offspring would mature similarly.
Pre-game options and choices are great, too, but make sure I can save whatever I choose as a default channeler so I can play it or modify it for use later.
(In case you're wondering, I tried Medievel 2 but found it too be too cumbersome and buggy. I never tried Empire:TW.)
I really like the direction you are going with this. Would just like to add that there should be some options effecting magical abilities which others have mentioned.
Yeah brosif. "Good" and "Bad" or what society calls "Morality" depicted in games seems rather trivial to me. Most of the time there is little impact on your game and it seems to serve no purpose other than aesthetics, the way other civilizations see you(which, by the way doesn't matter much when you have full coffers that flow freely about the other players' civilizations), and the kind of end game tech you can get. where as an action and reaction, cause and effect way of looking about your actions would have real impact on your world, not this abstract notion of what is wrong and right
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