Maybe reduce to 5%? Because the 1% now is just useless. Usually fight don't last long, and even if they do, you are no always on the front getting hit, you dance with your teammates during a fight. Its not like it will procc constantly even against a tower + shoulder + arrows rook.

Suppose that it proc 3 times during a fight which is impressive, 900 hp is just like 1 extra heal from a monk.

edit:

I have played a lot with a friend with the modified helms and I liked them I lot. I found that the theurgists's cap does wonders with sedna, the hps and mps increase works well with healing wind and inner speed Vinling is just great and affordable around level 8. Vlemish remains a nice helm throughout the game. Scaled and Plate are both great. hungarling crown is a great late game helm.

Plenor seems less useful now, lifekatana has a point when he said that its a little UP. I think it needs a buff, but without touching the passive boots it gives. I've noticed that there are 2 favors that gives cooldown reduction, + CD flags, + Vinling now, whereas there is 1 single item in the game that gives a cost reduction bonus which is not affordable in any game (hungarling crown - 4250g). I propose that we add a cost reduction aura to Plenor to make it more attractive, and thus we would have an affordable item with this type of aura.

Plenor Battlecrown - +1375 mana, +35% mana per second, 10-15% cost reduction aura  (1500 gold)

Pop Pelenor mana per second up to 40% I reckon. Maybe even 45% because otherwise Ill keep my plate visor

the more I think about the more I find that helms are actually balanced quite good... not sure anymore.

I always thought that the helms were pretty well balanced as it was :-/

Vlemish is, of course, made of awesome, and superior to Plenor in most ways. Plenor + Vlemish == infinite mana, as it should be when you use 2 out of 5 slots for pure-mana items.Hurligton's is pretty awesome whenever you get it, and Vinling is okay with the new cost reduction: once large creeps hit the table, it procs pretty damn often, esp if you're playing against a minion build.

Assuming you have a full creep wave attacking you:

5 minos + 2 archers will hit you 11.5 times a second. 3% chance to regain 350 mana. This means roughly every 3 seconds you'll regain 350 mana, which is a rather absurd 100 mps.

Of course, it is uncommon for a full wave of creeps to be attacking you (and if you are being hit by that many creeps, you're losing hp as a tradeoff), and so on. However, Vinling is better than it sounds on paper Certainly superior to Plenor and the price reduction of 1.2 makes it a viable second-helm.

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Anyway, the way I see it, if you make mana more scare, you make it harder to do sustained damage since you burn though all your skills. This does have a way of making HP stacking a little less important (if you could only be Fireballed twice every shop, you wouldn't have to worry about eating fireballs every few seconds until you go home, and so you don't need to wear as much hp).

That said, this is a 'skill-nerf' if you nerf the helms. Which makes HP stacking less important (good). Of course, if you increase AA damage or other damage-output mechanisms while making HP stacking less /effective/ engagements become shorter and shorter *bad). 3v3 @ level 7 engagements already last something like 8 seconds anyway before one team turns tail. I don't think we want to decrease that team even further, esp if we nerf sigils as well on top of that.

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Feedback:

I agree with the change to Vlemish, slight nerf, but still golden and the Aura is nice for the team-effect. Obviously Plate Visor sucks so any buff for that is a good thing. Interesting change with Theurgesan's. Now it has some Armor-attributes while fulfilling a decent mana role. I'm not sure how good it's proc is though... It's effecitvely a 'heal 300 hp and gain 200 mana' ability. Assuming you're Sedna with Narmoth's

Izuz, I'm arguing that the 1.2 chnage to Vinling make it superior to Plenor, as it should be because it is more expensive. Once WS8 hits it procs at abesolutely ridicious levels, and even any time after WS2 with archers it'll still proc a lot.

i think that if you do devote 2 out of 5 slots to just mana, it SHOULD be infinite mana. I don't think that's a flaw. You could say that 3250 gold is too little for infinite mana, but, really, there should be 2 helms that if you have together you can just ability-spam forever.

Making the Plenor+Vlemish combo weaker reduces your skill-spamming, reducing your damage output, so HP stacking is less important, so yah, that's a good thing. But if you want to make Plenor + Vlemish not infinite mana, at least make infinite mana cost < 6k gold. I s'pose Hurlington's + Vlemish would do the trick but :shrug: I think that costs too much gold to be viable in a typical game.

What I'm saying is that Vinling helmet is a lot better than most people thing. It's NOT good as your only helm, but it is superior to having Plenor. As it should be since it's almost 2k more gold.

Anyway, really like the Theurgist cap change, it would be really fun.

- Vinling Helmet - +750 mana, +70% mana per second (price: 2250 gold)

-10% Cooldown Reduction Aura. 3% chance on being hit to gain 350 Mana

My issue with the previous iteration (removing the proc on Vinling while adding the CD reduction aura) was that Vinling + Vlemish would not provide infinite mana, and it is my stance that 2 helms should provide infinite mana, at a certain gold threshold. I guess the player-base considers 3250 to be too low. I personally think anything in excess of 6000 is clearly overboard for a typical game, and something in between 4000-4500 would probably be fine.

Adding in the proc of Vinling now provides the 'infinite mana' quota, which is good. However, it is now horrifically imbalanced for it's price. You would have to pull this to 3000g, I think, making Vlemish + Vinling cost a hefty 4750k, which leaves only a little gold for everything else... Banded Armor, Unbreakable, Scaled Mail would fit into a 7000 budget which is pretty acceptable.

Also, what would you guys feel about making Vlemish's +MPS aura stack? With it's new values, that would probably be OP, but you could have two aura's... one that stacked (maybe a +2 MPS) and one that doesn't. Helps balance the slight nerf to Vlemish as is.

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Remember that nerfing helms will also have an effect on demigod. Assassin Oak is very weak (read: useless) until you get two helms on him. I think that a weak-early game with a strong-late game is part of Oak's flavor and nerfing Plenor will basically give Oak a few minutes/levels until he starts to shine. I think I'm okay with that... I think that Oak SHOULD be OP end-game to compensate for his weak start and I like his balance, but making him wait a few minutes longer before shining might be just enough of a nerf to put him in almost a perfect-balance with the 2 'ideally balanced' demigods: Sedna and Rook.

Erebus will also have a little harder time escaping, though I think his... strength lies mostly in Bite-Batswarm as well as his super-minions. This isn't a thread discussing Demigod balancing, however, so I won't talk into that this much. Helm nerfs I think will have the following effect on Demigods assuming all other items remain unchanged:

Queen - already heavily mana dependent, and will not be able to meet mana-costs mid-level making her 'dive off' even faster than she is already . NERFED

Sedna - I play a 1-helm Sedna and I'm one of the top-rated Sedna players. ^^; Regardless, properly micro'ing mana usage is huge and a proper Sedna can do it with one no problem. Less mana means less skills which means more Auto-Attack which means engagements/fights last longer which means monks heal more, which gives Sedna more of an advantage. 2-helm Hunter-builds would be nerfed but I don't think they are very good builds for 3v3 Cataract anyway so probably not a huge deal. BUFFED

Rook - Tower rook requires a large pool to get a tower farm up, then modest regen to replace towers. The nerfed Plenor only gives 1 less tower, which isn't a huge deal. However, a tower rook without towers is just looking for a gank. Aggro rook probalby wouldn't be harmed too badly since he is a one-helm. SLIGHT NERF but not a huge deal since you can 1-helm a Rook without too many issues, and you always have the option of Blade of the Serpant.

TB - Blade of the Serpant fixes all his issues with mana. Ice non-BotS TB's will struggle a bit, but they are end-game builds anyway which makes it not quite a big deal since end-game means a lot of money. Fire non-BotS TB's should be okay with Inspirational Flame (even though that is level 15... :-/) just because InspFlame basically IS a second helm. NOT HUGELY AFFECTED / NERFED depending on your exact build

Erebus - 2 helms are essential for Assassin builds. Minion-builds shouldn't be affected that much since they are one-helm. However, Erebus is still pretty strong early-game and isn't like Rook or Oak where his effectiveness is hampered with a smaller mana-pool: he simply has a harder time getting away since Batswarm has a more prohibitive mana-cost. SLIGHT NERF / NOT HUGELY AFFECTED depending on your build.

Beast- 3 flavor's of Hybrid beasts: BotF hybrids tend to only run 1-helm anyway so shouldn't be affected that much. Staff of Renewel builds tend to run 2-helms so they can ability-spam like crazy, which is a painful nerf for them since they are rather squishy. BotS builds are not affected. Ooze builds don't need helms so they aren't direcly effected either. However, since it's harder for everyone else to spam abilities, Ooze's AA-debuff is more painful since more damage is dealth thru AA. This gives Ooze beast a clear buff as long as pure HP stacking is a vialbe strategy. Ooze: BUFFED . Hybrid: NERFED / NOT HUGELY AFFECTED depending on your build

Regulus - meh. I don't think that many Reg get 2-helms anyway, since they tend to have a bit more of a AA/snare focus. Pure mines+snipe might need 2 but they can always go BotS. If nothing else, the fact that everyone else has less mana means that they have less ranged abilities which makes Reg able to kite a UB or Oak better. NOT HUGELY AFFECTED

Oak - Minion Oak doesn't need 2 helms, so not really a big deal. Assassin Oak is desperate for 2 helms and will remain the weak demigod on the team until he gets those 2 necassary helms. I don't think anyone will disagree with me that this is a clear NERF for Oak.

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Also, I think we should define what the 'standard' item-builds would be. The current metagame seems to be:

3 +HP, 1 +Mana, 1 'Utility'

'Utility' depends on build-to-build and demigod-to-demigod. This could be a Boots of Speed or Wyrmskin for a Reg, Nature's Reckoning for a Sedna, Bloodstone Ring for an Aggro Rook or a second helm for an Oak, or a Mageslayer for a late-game UB. '+HP' is anything that adds HP and/or Armor.

Re-hasing the well-known but still feel like I should write this:

Top +HP items (in order of how frequently you see them in a game, most-frequent to less-frequent):

Banded Armor

Scalemail

Nimoth Chestplate

Unbreakable Boots (also nice +Mana, but I consider it to be more of a +HP item than +Mana)

Narmoth's Ring

Haubrek of Life (build-dependent)

Armor of Vengence (counter-build-dependent)

Groffing Warplate (end-game only)

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Top +Mana items: (most common, rarely see Crown or Vinling in games, even if they are good)

Scaled Helm

Vlemis

Plenor

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Top Utility (in no particular order)

Boots of Speed

Deulist's Cuirass (after 1.2)

Journeyman's Treads

Wyrmskin Gloves

Gloves of Despair

Slayer's Wraps

Nature's Reckoning

Bloodstone Ring

Mageslayer

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Anyway, in what direction do we want to take this to?

Do we want it to be more like

+2 HP, +1 Mana, +2 Utility

?

I think that's what I would want. I still think that HP-stacking should be a GOOD strategy, and you can't completely neglect it. A good build should both require and only need Nimoth's and Unbreakable Boots. If we raise DPS disproportionally, then fights become shorter, AND people buy less HP items which make combat a short and fast and furious which I don't want. I think that we should try to keep 1v1 combat roughly the same length as well as try to preserve the tempo of 2v2 combats. 3v3 combats are already so fast I don't think there is much we can do with that

Like, let's say we gave every glove a +100 Weapon Damage effect. You could stack 5 gloves and do a TON of damage per hit, but you yourself would have very little hp. What if two people did this, and right-clicked each other? The fight would be over in seconds. This is BAD, in my opinion, and we should avoid this as much as possible. We should still encourage walking around with 4.5k HP mid-game. Just not demand walking around with 5k HP in order to compete, as it is now.

"

Only 750g difference"

- Vinling Helmet - +750 mana, +70% mana per second (price: 2250 gold)

-10% Cooldown Reduction Aura. 3% chance on being hit to gain 350 Mana"

I was using that as the base. All that in one package for 2250 is pretty crazy. If you drop the -10% cooldown reduction aura, then it's good for its price (a slight buff from how it is currently, if you consider the "mana per gold" factor), which was why I was suggesting an increase in price. I mean, that's basically an Uber-form of Diamond Pendent (+250 Mana, -10% cooldowns).

i think your change for plenor to have 35% mana regen is an undesired stat. seeing as though you have plate visor with 50% mana regen id rather have that over plenor at this stage. I'd rather have 1000 max mana and 50% - 70% mana regen.