I agree with Tormy on being concerned about the combat system being too simple. Having only ATT/DEF/LIFE/SPEED makes it extremely difficult creating many of the fantasy creatures. I've mentioned this topic previously, but revisiting the most important attributes which are missing from Elemental. If we were dealing with only boats, siege weapons and single skilled humans... aka the original CIV_4, then those 4 attributes would be okay. Each of the examples below explain why a specific attribute is needed.
EXAMPLE A} If someone wanted to create a mind flayer this creature attacks primarily with its mind, thus units with low intelligence such as giant ants would die easily while a wizard would be more difficult and a catapult would be immune because it has no mind. In this one example it would not be possible to create a mind flayer accurately in Elemental because a wizard would have less defense than a well armored barbarian. Here is just one example why the intelligence attribute is important... others can be provided.
EXAMPLE B} Also consider the fantasy creatures/beings which can corrupt enemy units/beings using one of the well known seven sins, yet there's no attribute which can be linked for these ethical decisions/attacks. I would not suggest linking corruption attacks to intelligence since we all know lawyers, high rank government officials, doctors, etc., etc., can also easily be tempted by seduction, bribery, domestic violence, etc., . So a seduction attempt from a succubus may work on a wizard, but fail miserably on a paladin... unfortunately this does not seem possible for Elemental unless more attributes are included. Here is just one example why the wisdom attribute is important... others can be provided.
EXAMPLE C} Let's now examine a battlefield which has a group of archers and some swordsmen fighting a few giant spiders(size_of_a_human) and one enormous giant spider(size_of_a_house). All spiders are equally skilled. The group of archers would naturally find it easier to aim at the larger target... whether or not the arrows penetrate is a different story. The size of a unit should also be the most important variable for determining the life of a creature/being this is best explained by taking any unit then having the unit paralyzed 4 turns where it cannot defend itself... naturally the spider the size of a house probably won't be killed by two swings of a sword, but the human sized spiders would be killed. Here is just one example why the size attribute would be important along with its link to hitpoints/life... others can be provided
EXAMPLE D} Currently it seems the attack attribute will be used for both archer types and melee types. However this creates a problem for units which are skilled in both weapons... naturally a unit which has spent his entire life fighting with the sword should not be able to be trained inside a town using a bow and then have a lifetime worth of archery skill. The aiming of a missile weapon is completely different from the skills of a sword and each should have their own attribute. Here is just one reason why the precision or accuracy attribute is important... others can be provided.
I recall reading from the developer journals how it would be interesting if the game could be modded to the point of providing an RPG. I cannot remember the last RPG which had only 4 attributes.
VicenteC GET THIS STRIGHT, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ATTRIBUTES AND NOT ABOUT CUSTOMIZING, RESEARCHING OR BUILDINGS!!!!!!!
Elemental may be similar to Civ4 in some way but no where near as similar to be another civi like game, it is base of off many other games.
now to your comment about dominion 3
can you research technology? yes in form of different branch of magic research.
can you customize units? not many games allow you can customize your units, there are only a very few games that allow you to customize units even to this day. Dominion 3 when in term of customizing units are very limited but their leaders are very highly customizable in game. Customizing a united isn't everything, if there only a few attributes, att, def, hp, move, than you might as well customize the unit's look as a eye candy for you. This is way many people are comparing it to civi 4 and it's another reason why civi4 battle system is weak. The different types of units are narrow down and the possibities of you creating the units that can do what you dream of is very slim. Why game of chess or shogi or even Go are one of the best bord games? not because they are complex, but because they offer more possibilites, which is near infinites compare to a game of Tic tick toe.
does it matter how complex a building are? building are there just for the point of being there, to get better units or stat like any other games. In dominion 3 building are pretty complex for what they do and where they are located unlike other games of it similar types like total war.
I'm getting it perfectly straight, thanks. But it seems you don't understand that combat is related to the rest of the game in many ways and trying to look at it separated from the other game systems is a mistake.
I didn't want to bring chess or go into this, but well: you say chess is one of the best board games, but it only has 6 unit types and 1 stat (movement). Even the combat rules are very simple. Doesn't it contradict the "we need more stats to make combat interesting"?
OK for people like vicenteC and other keep saying about Civi 4 tactical combat system regarding the Elemental combat system.
let get some of the things clear first.
Civi4 doesn't really have a tactical combat system, why do I say what I just said?
Firstly Civi 4 tactical combat system is just a rolling the dice to see who will win, The unit stat is just to give the odds of winning the fight. To be truly called tactical combat the player should have some form of influence on the outcome of the battle by comtrolling it's unit in some way and tell it what to do before or in the fight. This why Civi 4 is very similar to Risk 2 game. So really it should be called a gambling strategy battle system, instead of tactical combat.
Dominion 3 has a tactical combat system because the gamer can tell their army what formation to take and what to do when it's in the fight and who to attack.
I even dare to say Galactic Civilization games doesn't even have tatical combat battle system even GC2 and their expansion packs. They may have animation of ship fighting but they use gambling strategy battle system, If you look closely at the damages done you will notice that both side gang up on one ship of the opposite side one at a time. It's pretty much strategy with no tactical combat at all to the CORE.
when someone say Elemental are far similar to Civ 4, They are wrong what's more the battle system for elemental isn't even out yet. GC2 battle system are far similar to Civi 4 but no where similar to elemental.
yes and to make a good combat system you need a good base to start with.
yes movement is the stat, But there are different types of movement for each. Those different types of movement represent different types of attributes plus the board of the game which combine make a very interesting combination and moves. which result in an infinit different types of games that can be played.
pawn have three attributes, move up two space on the first move, move up one space, and evolve "promoted". other piece have more than one attributes too like the king which have the fortify
The reason why I use chess as an example is because chess was orginally used by the kings to train their general in tactical combat. This why chess has alot of tactical combat related moves.
Honestly, I don't quite see how adding a small handful of attributes beyond ATT, DEF and HP is going to lengthen the game. The length of combat is determined more by the overall style - Total War style combat tends to take a while - there's lots of moving from here to there and it happens in real time, so you can't just skip animations or whatever. Total War combat with fewer stats than it had, or more stats than it had, wouldn't really take any longer. I mean when I formulated my tactics in TW, I didn't compare my units' stats to my enemies. But I knew what the strengths and weaknesses of the various unit types were. I wouldn't have been able to tell you in most cases what would happen in a 1 vs 1 duel between two individual units, but that isn't really relevant. I had some troop types that were used to take the brunt of the initial waves, others to flank, others to provide ranged support; others hanging back to go wherever they turn out to be needed, etc. Obviously all this would change based on my and my opponent's army composition, but I can't remember a single time that I really looked at unit stats during combat. I don't think games like AoW and HoMM would take significantly longer or shorter with more/less stats than they had; although those styles of combat tend to inherently take less time.
Sure, once you add in unit customization it changes a bit - you don't know exactly what you're up against because there aren't predesigned units for you to get used to. But really, I never really knew the details of all the different types of troops in TW either (too many to remember all that!) but it didn't matter, I knew what their overall strengths and weaknesses and roughly how powerful they were. Also, graphics are a powerful indicator. A troop of mighty-looking shining soldiers in perfect formation is likely a good indication that it is a very powerful squad - well equipped for sure! Is it wielding swords? Spears? Bows? That's a lot more information and tells you their general purpose. To get the gritty details (like what exactly their stats are, if they have special abilities, enchantments, etc) you will have to look at their infocard; but that does not take much time and once you become familiar with combat it becomes momentary.
If combat is done the way I'm hoping it's done (and Brad has hinted that it will be), then comparing stats isn't going to tell you who's gonna win. You have to consider the function of the different troops and the utilization of them. Having a few extra stats (particularly endurance and morale; and I think willpower in a game with magic is just as significant) gives you TONS of extra freedom to play with functionality and utilization. And it needn't make combat take any longer, except at first while you're getting used to everything and require more time to make your decisions and figure out why things that happen happen.
Modding is a huge piece of Elemental and one of the reasons why more attributes mean more unique creature creations. A group of soldiers resisting bribery should not be the same as the soldiers resisting a transformation spell... the attributes are needed to separate these differences. Modding is needed for creating new creatures and only a few attributes means less possible combinations for new creatures. I'm not surprised you need links for developer comments, you should really follow developer posts more closely so you know what's going on:
As I wrote earlier a soldier with a lifetime of experience in sword skills shouldn't be able to be trained in a city with a bow and suddenly have a lifetime worth of archery skill... with only the attack attribute available this would be the case. Anyone with really high attack should not be great at both melee and archery.
Not common? The seven deadly sins are common in the real world... now try and imagine how they would obviously be more common in a world which also has untold riches, fantasy creatures and fantasy spells with fantasy lore using these seven deadly sins. There's over a dozen different mythical creatures with just the seduction trait and this is only one of the seven sins... personally it would be nice in Elemental if I could train human female spys to also seduce as well.
It seems you simply have a lack of vision/faith in what Stardock is capable of achieving. You believe just because Elemental is providing great features in other parts of the game that the developers could not succeed with units having attributes beyond the very basic. Well the extra long beta testing planned and the more than double staffing of developers has me more than confident in Stardocks ability. I will pray you gain the same faith in Stardock.
There's very few details for what will be available with modding the game and adding new attributes may not be available in modding... unless you have a link to show otherwise? I'd say I'm on the forums quite frequently and doubt such a developer posting exists.
If you played Dominions_3 you'd know the combat system is very simple and that the attributes only add more strategies for the battlefield. A better way to describe the value of more attributes is if the CIV_4 modders had the option of adding more attributes... and many modders would take advantage of this because units could now be more unique.
Adding attributes later on from an expansion or patch would be a heavy technical pain point. Imagine adding just the wisdom attribute and then having to give and setup every creature with this attribute. Then there's changing any spells, events, and traps which might be linked with this attribute. And finally testing the attribute will work smoothly with existing code. Very painful and time consuming for developers and modders. And these are attributes which will be used there's plenty of spells, events, traps, creatures which can use these attributes!!
Modding is separated from vanilla Elemental. If more attributes are needed for modding, the correct solution is to add the posibility of adding attributes via modding, not adding a horde of attributes and disabling them in vanilla Elemental.
Well, I rest far more reassured after reading Frogboy comments: first comment is only talking about continous turns. Second seems to imply that probably there's going to be a pretty powerful API to interact with Elemental, which is nice.
It would be common if fantasy creatures were going to be common, but you read the forums, and you know that's not the case. So, they continue to be strange in a world were a lot of combats are going to be person vs person.
I have a lot of faith in fellow game developers, specially those with the track record of Stardock. But you seem to believe they have unlimited manpower and resources to tackle the game, and that's not the case. As with any project, there's a very real limit in how many people they can dedicate, budget, how long can they have the in production before releasing,...
But taking that out, you don't understand the most basic part of my argument: there are so many things to make in Elemental, that it's a pitty they waste their time in things that are going to be rarely seen or used. They could be using their time in far more interesting things.
I have played Dominions and I know that if the combat system had half the specials traits and attributes it currently has, it would be pretty similar overall. Some minor/strange things wouldn't be able to be done for sure, but the overall feeling would be nearly the same.
That's the work of a mod. Adding an unused attribute just for the future is adding code that may be used, or not, but developers have to live with the fact that the code exists (which is a pain). You should ask the right people to make the right work: developers should support the posibility of adding more attributes and moders should be the ones that decide if they want to make a simple mod (just editing xml files, changing assets,...) or a more complex ones (interacting with the game API).
Absolutely true...in fact it will be impossible to mod in a "proper" fantasy creature, if we only gonna have ATT/DEF/SPEED. Eh, and Frogboy wants to see RPGs using this engine. Sounds good, but it won't be possible to create a good one, if the engine won't support damage types, resistances, immunities, attributes and gameplay elements like that. So what is the conclusion? If the combat system in the vanilla game won't have features like this [..I say it again: that would be a bad idea, because the combat system will be heavily handicapped..], we must be able to mod them in. The problem is, that it won't be easy to mod in something like a new attribute imo. We can just only hope, that experienced coders will play & mod the game.
How many elite longbowman do you know that don't also have a melee weapon they are highly proficient at? Obviously they will be using the best bows, and yet not the best swords, and Attk is purely tied towards equipment. In Strength is where levelled units gain proficiency, and elite is elite.
A peasant archer, sure ... might not be carrying much-else/ anything-else ... but Asides from Crossbowmen (who were mainly peasants) all ranged units I can think of had a melee weapon they were profficient at. In fact, some of such units were equally skilled at both.
I think I'll have to think of when I was battling the Egyptians in ROME: some archers were "weak archers" were I knew I could simply charge them and look to other places of the battlefield, but I had to be really careful when attacking "elite archers" cause they could cause serious casualties to my Equites units.
(granted a more heavily armored cavalry wouldn't run into the same problems, but elite archers are still significant in melee)
Even if the engine supports those things, to create a RPG from Elemental you will need to know how to code (except for a very very very basic one). And that's taking out the "minor detail" that the Elemental game engine is designed towards strategy games, not towards RPG games.
It was an example. Creating a proper, magic heavy TC mod won't be easy either, if the mentined gameplay elements won't be part of the vanilla game.
As long as they can be added by code, the effort is going to be the same. Even less maybe as you won't have some things based on data files and then some other things based on code.
As long as the Dev team is confident a hex-attribute template can be modded onto units (a la DnD), I have no worries. I personally do not see myself wanting or needing extra complex attributes (other than MORALE and Endurance of course).
If heroes and family members had a few extra attributes (for things like commanding an army or running a city, or dungeoneering) im all for it, and most will probably be covered with traits and abilities (and perks/feats).
I'd also like a "rising heroes mod" which kind-of ties into Unit-Commanders for experienced Units. (soldiers that were trained and equiped together, in the same city, from same town ... yea they are different objects on the battlefield but imho its still a unit )
I could see a mercenary band of lizardmen fighting for me ... killing many a-rebel foe and eventually taking many losses, and out of the band a singular "ranger of awesome" arises from the Lizardmen, and he asks to join (or I have the ability and money to ask him to join) ... and now I have an uber lizardman heroe! *squee* Then I can go adventuring with said hero, and perhaps asking other mercenary bands to join him and aid him in his quests, and perhaps collect another hero or two ... and eventually they could run into a Lair of EgoRaptors and has to run for their lives ... maybe eventually (with some tech and more troops) can return to the nest and capture/tame a few EgoRaptors. Perhaps I can create a pretige-gaining building in my city called "EgoRaptor cage" and perhaps some of my units (including my hero) can eventually become mounted by the EgoRaptors ... perhaps someone will learn how to incubate EgoRaptor eggs, and can breed more, maybe eventually I could see a whole division of EgoRaptor riders ... lead by my Lizardman hero, and his adventurer war-band.
In any case, Im liking that there is a whole CATEGORY under Adventuring.
Magical creatures in general, and particularly the upper echelon of them, will be rarely seen or used. I suppose it's a pity that Stardock is devoting any attention to them at all - they could be using their time for much more interesting things...
You've made this same point, disguised in different clothing, on a number of occasions now (unless I'm confusing you with someone else, but I'm pretty sure it was you) and it's no more valid now than it was the first time.
please devote lots of time on rare magical creatures!!!
assuming a man has 10 move, a horse has 30 move, and a hawk has 50 move ....
a Wyvern should have 10 ATK/ 5 DEF/ 20 HP/ 30 move (minor breath)
a Pegasi should have 5 ATK/ 2 DEF/ 10 HP/ 40 move (minor wind spells)
a Pheonix would have 15 ATK/ 10 DEF/ 30 HP/ 50 move (high level fire spells)
a Legendary Dragon of Obsidian plane should have 25 ATK/ 15 DEF/ 180 HP/ 40 move (Nuclear breath of Ultimate DOOM)
an Elder Dragon would have 20 ATK/ 10 DEF/ 100 HP/ 40 move (great breath)
a Mature Dragon would have 18 ATK/ 9 DEF/ 80 HP/ 40 move (great breath)
a Jouvenile Dragon would have 15 ATK/ 6 DEF/ 60 HP/ 30 move (large breath)
a Fledgling Dragon would have 10 ATK/ 5 DEF/ 40 HP/ 30 move (minor breath)
a Hatchling Dragon should have 8 ATK/ 3 DEF/ 20 HP/ 20 move (non flying) (no breath)
The Towering Giant of Eastern Skies would have 10 ATK/ 10 DEF/ 100 HP (trample ability)
last but not least, the Groglock of the Astral Planes should have 8 ATK/ 20 DEF/ 500 HP, and a large assortment of magic, mostly Death magic.
Yeah, is not valid because you say so, great
Eh....rare magical creatures? Funny stuff. There won't be real differences between the creatures if the stats are based on att/def/speed only...just like in Civ4. Diversity = non-existant this way.
I see plenty of diversity. I mean, from my perspective we have physical damage and magical damage. Its already been stated that magical damage types will come into play.
While Dragons will most likely be magic-resistant (or immune) and fire immune, a wyvern might only be fire resistant and poison immune, maybe having a damage-over-time poison attack.
Meanwhile, a Groglock could either be immune to magic, or just immune to death magic while resistant to others ... or simply have such powerful magic other creatures need to hope they are magic immune for a chance to kill such a creature. Meanwhile, as far as customizable troops, I dont think we need to be able to select resistance tags or immunity tags, unless say Mithril Armor gives magic resistance, and some sort of Jade ring gives poison resistance/immunity.
So yea, I guess I wan't Poison, Ice, Fire, Electric, Holy, and Unholy damage types. maybe a couple more damage types like Wind and Death. (I don't think Life damage type is possible, and I prefer all 3 holy, unholy, AND death) in this case I see poison as, for now, being considered as a magical damage type, and for non-living type things, and the undead, to be immune to it (unless you want to go the Acidic route)
anyways, just some thoughts. A resistance to a particular type (or all magic) would be done with tags (I think). I honestly don't see how useful extra stats are from a game-mechanic perspective (dexterity can increase defense if you aren't wearing armor? dexterity increases ranged weapon proficiency? how do we decide how dextrous, willpowered, or intelligent a citizen is when we place him into the unit-creation screen?)
I don't think this is necessarily true. You could have a whole slew of abilities to balance out the lack of stats. To a certain extent, I prefer abilities over more stats... although I would like morale and endurance.
Indeed, there can certainly be variety in magical creatures, especially due to Magical Spells (possibly damage types) and an assortment of abilities and traits. *like the trample ability, or the breath ability, or the flying ability
since many of these rare magical creatures will be, in fact *magical* it could almost be assumed that variance could come from the spells in their spell books of even two nearly identical magical creatures.
Also, having different proportions of ATTK/DEF (like some having more defense than attack, some being equal) and having various levels of HP combined with the various ATK/DEF permutations, the choices are wide.
I would of course wish for Morale and Endurance to play a key factor in mass-warfare, and hope they make it into the game as an integral part of warfare.
No, I gave a very good reason why it's not valid (and I've given more in the other threads that you've brought it up in). But of course you completely ignored it, you even left it out of your quote of my post despite it being a very short post. I suppose anything that contradicts your inherently flawless arguments (they are, after all, coming from you) are just so obviously irrelevent that they don't even deserve to be acknowledged.
/sarcasm
I think the points made from each side of the argument are pretty clear at this point, so sorry I just don't want to enter an infinite loop and show you why your argument has flaws (and then you'll say mine has and so on, infinite and useless loop we have had before in other threads).
You think you are right? Perfect, I'm not posting to convince you.
The thread is to decide wether adding more attributes is neccessary. While some would seem integral on the battlefield (morale and fatigue) others seem less immediately important.
Alot of the discussion has been wether its best for Elemental to add "empty stats" into the engine, and merely not implement these empty stats into the unit creator, or any units in the game (except for maybe heroes).
I think its safe to assume most soldiers will have straight 10s across the board when it comes to stats, since thats the average for humans, we are humans, and we are dealing with thousands of soldiers. ATTK and DEF are only to be related to Armor Dependent Armor class, and Weapon Dependent damage rating, since there are no modifiers in either direction.
Heroes, and possibly magical creatures, might have use for such an attribute system, but I think there could be other ways to represent these specialties ass opposed to an encompassing attribute system for every single unit that will be 99+% 10/10/10/10/10/10. I don't mind having "special attributes" to keep track of like-minded special abilities which are shared over various heroes or montrous creatures, but we certainly don't need "willpower or intelligence" on the average Joe, imo ... just assume a 10 if your going to have such a system at all. In this case, instead of a non-zero, it would be a non-10 which would not be shown. Magical resistance would usually be an integer modifier based upon will-power score ... and there-fore any non-10 will power scores could be instantly translated into a +2 or a -1, ect.
Probably Sovereign creation will be alot like a DnD or Baldur's Gate (ect) character template creator ... only alot of the skills to choose from will probably be things other than your typical attributes, and you would probably have to make some key decisions to invest more heavily into Either your CIV or your SOVEREIGN. Both are long-term investments towards potential, and perhaps some added short-term usefulness as well. I definitely would like a sophisticated Sovereign and Faction creation/customization screen.
(perhaps even the ability to invest enough civ or sovereign points to psuedo introduce an unused feature ... an example would be, assume there are 6 religions based upon the elements, well with enough invested points you could craft your own religion ... say jungle-worship. Or even a sophisticated version of god-king or God-Emperor (like Stargate or Japan)
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