Every 4X game we’ve made going all the way back to the beginning we try different ways of researching new technologies. Galactic Civilizations I and II both originally had very different research systems.
The one in Elemental we have in the beta we don’t like so we’re going to be making pretty radical changes to it in the upcoming builds.
Here are some of the key elements that we WILL be making more of a focus in keeping:
So stay tuned on that.
In Pacific theater of operation II, they used a system which worked fine because the difference between tech levels of each opponent was very low (since it stayed in a WWII setting).
The way it worked is that you have different fields (ex: aviation, electronics, industry etc). Every month, you spend money in each field.
Each field has a rating, if you spend enough money in each field, your rating will raise. If your don't spend enough money, your rating will drop.
When your rating reach a certain level, you acquire a new technology. Most of the time, a technology requires 2 different field to be at a certain level so that focussing on 1 field does not give your anything.
You don't know which field gives what, so you try to use your intuition on where is the best place to invest.
So you could do something like this, You hide the information regarding which field develop what, you add and remove randomly tech that can be researched and you could even change the required values.
This system also force the players to always keep a steady investment to progress, else, if they get some problems (ex war) and cannot invest, they will be late and they will have to catch up before progressing again.
Now about infinite tech. I don't see much how it can be done. There is 2 options:
Cumulative bonus: You increase the bonus received over and over again which has the problem unbalancing the game near the end.
Comparative bonus: You get a bonus if your are better than your opponent. So you need to constantly progress to keep and edge over your opponent, but if you are 1st place in tech, you always gain the same bonus.
Actually, you lost it after 'blind tech progression'.
I think the problem with the system you presented is that it eliminates the sort of determinism required for strategic decisionmaking. If players pursue particular lines of tech progression, then they should be appropriately punished/rewarded for that choice. Random elements should be additions to non-random core mechanics.
hmm. then what about basically the same system, only with the branching visible one level inwards (basically you know which tech you are researching, but what tech they are connected to is the thing which will be randomized)
would that work better? in this way you can see what you are researching, how much it will cost/how long it will take, you just don't know exactly what it will lead to, even if you play alot of times, due to random techs, random situational techs, and having existing techs of tier X randomly pick which ones will be connected to researching tech A from tier X-1. So researching animal husbandry might lead to Herding Techniques and Wild animal taming, or it might lead to Advanced Domestication and Slaughter Houses. And a random situational tech, it could lead to bare-back riding (on horses) which would lead more quickly to saddle tech and stirrups tech, or it could lead to War-horse training and War-horse breeding. As a random tech, however, it could lead to Wild-Boar riding, or Deer-riding, or Bear-riding .... to add a little mixed variety.
Equally basic farming could lead to crop-rotation, or it could lead to Harvest Seasons, or it could lead to Pumpkin farming, or it could lead to Rice Paddies, ect.
In any case, random or not, with one line visible, you can make more of a choice of what to do with the knowledge you are given with. Still, it would be kinda nice to research without knowing exactly what will happen. I suppose the second idea basically achieves this concept although places it a step deeper, so that you can still make at least immediate-time decisions.
Yep, you're losing the audience here. Completely blind techs would be something that I would mod out the second its possible to do so. Games where that much is in the hands of the RNG are not something I find enjoyable.
Here's a thought. How about a Research Tree where you start off seeing EVERY Possible Tech. As you mouse over a tech a info box will pop up and tell you what you need to reach that tech. You can then literally build your own Tech Tree each game by deciding what you want to go for. Researching some techs could close off the path to others so you would have to be careful what you go for. This also would make it useful to be able to trade techs. You could trade a tech you have for one that got closed off when you researched something else.
The only Techs you wouldn't be able to see from the start would be random techs and situational techs. Everything else you'd get to pick and choose from.
Players should have the option of aiming for specific high level technologies.
well, tech visibility has been in every game I have played thus far, and It eventually lends itself to the same path over and over again. What about if different techs took better advantage of certain techs somehow?
I still like situational and random techs being numerous ... and I don't see how a large pool of random situational techs could tie into a completely visible tech tree, except for some side-branch which gives you "iron clad ships" or something equally outside of the normal tech tree. I suppose this relates to an early idea Civ 4 had of having monolithic governments like in Civ 3, and for technology progression to not be under decision of the player, but to be mainly influenced by the type of government, and several other factors. Eventually it was decided that it would not be as fun for the player, even though it was fun for the designer (as I remember it being said) ....
With the 1 step randomization, each tier will still lead into the tier above it, only its not certain which type of tech it leads into. I mean ... I suppose i would be okay with a completely visible tech tree ... but I was very excited with the idea of not having to min/max the research strategy. However, that does lend to the possibility of the RNG making an even worse job of it.
So I will no longer argue for random technology development, but I would like for situational and hidden techs to be unlocked, which unlock their own miniature tech tree for dealing with a certain style of warfare, or a certain terrain.
I also would like for Research to be made unique and separate from economy ... with a raw research stat and % modifiers (education) to affect the research stat ... as opposed to throwing pure "money" at the research, you have to build up experiement/research based infrastructure in order to get the raw data for technological development.
Not sure how spell-research is going to be handled, although Im sure it will be more Shard-related as well as what the Channeler decides to meditate upon. I can see spell progression as either building your own spell-book or to be slightly random as Stardock has suggested. But again with random, I mean more of an organic probability, alas saying random too many times and it becomes a sin, har har har.
Raven X's idea to "buid your own tech tree" before the game even started was an interesting one ... but it seems like it would be the ultimate in min/max and strat crafting, although I suppose it would make good strats easier to learn for new-comers.
Repetition should be eliminated through environmental mechanics, not research mechanics. Elemental should have a dynamic enough environment that it's impossible to theory-craft a perfect progression through the tech tree. The contingencies of a particular world should mean that certain technologies are more/less viable than others in that world (although not other worlds).
I agree that situational techs can be fun. However, any random techs should be additions to the mainline tech tree (or discovered through random or non-random achievements).
I agree that linear tech trees need to go. I'd rather go with something branching that lets you focus on some things and neglect others and still be successful.
6-8 paths on the "tech tree" all weaving, branching, and otherwise interconnected, with each pathway having at least "two trees" of techs to determine between (for instance agriculture could have animal taming on one side, and herb lore/farming on the other side ... or three trees of animal taming, herb lore, AND farming/culinary -> all in the architechture path). If religions are introduced into the game, we could go a step further and have a small separate tech tree for each religion.
one of the things about Fall From Heaven was that you selected a reasearch path fairly early, and I think thats a good formulae to work with. It would also be nice if researching certain techs blocked other techs from ever being researched ... so that strategic cross-roads decisions need to be made in a more direct time-frame.
Having read this thread, I notice that the posters' opinions can be divided into certain mutually exclusive categories:
There might be some others that I missed.
These categories appeal to different kinds of players, so which one to choose would depend on which players the tech research system is meant to appeal to.
I think that to make the choice, one should consider the 4 X'es and the 4 player types.
One way to assign them would be:
If I have matched them up correctly, it is clear that the technology tree should be made to appeal to the Discoverer type.
Some of the concepts mentioned in the thread are:
I recommend that the various ideas being suggested should be evaluated in accordance with these game design principles.
EDIT: Clarified a bit and removed some incorrect stuff.
Good! I don't particularly like the way it has been portrayed yet either, mostly because what we have seen of the "tech tree" so far looks like a watered-down version of something like GC2. There is no "tree", only 5 independent branches. To make it more of a tree, you will need more
- branching
- possible causal interaction between branches (in order to unlock (the bonus attained by) milestone X, you need to have researched milestone Y)
- choices
- less distinct boundaries organized by theme (that is, less GC2 and more CivIV, that's the one thing Civ got right: no one tech tree for "guns" and another for "diplomacy")
We are looking forward to testing!
That's not really a bad thing. It's what rational players will do. If some techs are always better then others, of course anybody who knows what they're doing is going to go for the best ones first.
You're trying to address it by the symptom (smart players always go for the best techs first) instead of the problem (one set of techs is always better then all the others).
Exactly. What really fixes this is when the answer "what is the best tech to research right now?" has more then one answer. Then there's no problem. Some of these other ideas are just an attempt to hide it by removing control from the player so they can't make rational decisions, and instead relying on prayer to the RNG. (Not everything, I don't have an issue with branching or interconnected trees. Mostly I dislike taking control away from the player in order to try and stop what a skilled player would naturally do.)
Not necessarily before you start. I mean "as you go". You would be able to see the full tech tree at any time by going to the research screen And you'd see the branching paths. Choosing one tech could close off a corresponding tech on the same level so you have options to chose from without getting them all. One example could be in one branch you can chose from having slightly cheaper road taxes, OR slightly faster caravans, but not both. Then you'd have to trade for the other one if one of your allies even has it. This idea also implies a use in Diplomacy as Tech trading can be a powerful feature when you are limited in what you can research through choice.
Random Techs and Situational Techs would pop up like events or could even have to be "Quested" for.
Edit Note: When I say "branching" I don't mean linear. All the branches would be interconnected on many levels giving you a WIDE Range of choices and loss while still allowing maximization.
well, I definitely thing certain techs should disable researching certain other techs. Some-one can't be the best at everything, just have their own flavor towards everything, and further research increases their flavor towards the extreme.
I've always felt like techs locking each other out is a cop-out, except in the most obvious circumstances. (I would agree that the same civilization perhaps shouldn't be able to simultaneously develop policies of 'universal civil rights protection' and 'apartheid government')
Consider this, though. One race focuses on armor, the other on weapons. A third race decides, 'I want to have the best of both!' so he climbs to the last milestone of each tree, unlocking the best armor and weapons. However, if infinite research ends up working the way I would hope, the guy who focused on weapons will still produce higher quality weapons faster, and the guy who focused on armor will have the same benefit with armor. there's still a choice to be made, because there is no 'best'.
Well, I don't think a nation should develop Apartheid or Master-race technologies, and then go back and research Tolerance technologies without having to make a choice ... for instance if you research those tolerance techs you will have to abandon all previous ideologies and require some penalty pre-req, like creating a National Wonder/Epic of apology, which requires many productive resources to build. And then you can finally research Tolerance and go about the other tech tree of human development/culture. And also you could not use traits/abilities of both, building the epic would block traits and abilities of the previous (hate based) tree branches.
Hum .. what about this :
There's four areas of development :
Civilization, Warfare, Magic, Exploration
All techs are invisible when the game starts. Each tech has a pre-requisite value in each area.Each action made in the game will made advance one of the 4 areas. Building cities will improve your civilization stat. Exploring will enhance your exploration stat. Going to war will .. yep you guess it ... raise your warfare level. Using, researching magic will .. yeah you see what I mean.
Some buildings would give some point in two areas : a barracks would raise warfare AND civilization but less than going to war or building a new city.
When you reach some milestone in an area the game will search all the techs which pre-requisites are met. If at least one tech is ok, then it will propose it to you. If more than one tech are available, you are proposed one of them AND you have some insights about other things that you could get. The tech that met the prerequisites but weren't proposed would be added a a "stand-by" list. Once you have at least one tech on the "standby" list, you can use reserchers to discover those techs. BUT ... the interesting thing would be that each "standby" tech has a lifespan. If you have the opportunity to develop horse riding but don't do anything to discover it, it will slowly fade away from the memory of everyone. So you have choices to do. If you put researchers on a tech, the tech's lifespan won't decrease.
PS: sorry for my bad english. It isn't easy for me to explain clearly my ideas.
I really like aspects of this idea as well as reply #51 above. And reply 27 (my idea).
Architecture, Agriculture/Nature, Military Tradition, Resources and Industry, Magical Studies, Education, Research, Commerce
these are 7 basic starting points, perhaps branched off from 3-4 initial "starting techs" with paths for each. sucessive branches would stem off of these core concepts.
ie. Mounted Combat and Animal taming would branch from the connection of Agriculture and Military Tradition.
ie. Magical Items would stem from the connection between Industry and Magical Studies.
ie. Weapons and Armors would stem from connection between Military Tradition and Industry (mainly being covered by industry) ... while Formations would branch from this branch (going into the Military Tradition side) making good use of the new weapons ... like you can build pikes made of Iron or whatever you get from Industry, but to use Phalanx formations you need to learn how in Military tradition, only to tech Phalanx formation you need to first tech Pike/spear-building.
ie. Creation of Genetic/Magical mutation monsters can be far long the tech progression, up the paths in-between Magical Studies and Research.
ie. Naval trade and Warfare could be located in-between Military Tradition and Commerce (or rather requiring commerce techs while branching from military) ... and perhaps having certain industry tech-requirements as well (like lumberyards)
Architecture would, of course, branch into almost ALL other spheres in order to provide the proper buildings, basically X building in Y sphere will require you to at least achieve a C level of awareness in the Architechture sphere.
The unique thing about Architecture though, is that it will be the location for Drama, Cultural Traditions, Music .... and much much more. Palace building/improvements ... Architecture will be the foundation of Prestige ... and if you can build buildings out of expensive/rare-ish materials of Marble or Granite, the prestige of the building will be naturally increased. You should be able to build a grande Marble Barracks, still as functional as a large wooden barracks, but adding prestige to the city. Architecture could also expand city-sizes (somehow), build walls, and build roads. Prestige, however, will be its main ability.
THe thing that bothers me about this idea is that production equals science progress. There's no trade off of investing into early tech or early expansion because they're one and the same.
I don't like the infinite techs. They doesn't seem to bring anything meaningful to the table. It's like +1% to attack, +1% to attack... Situational techs/random techs are very nice ideas and I'm waiting for some details (from the devs).
One thing I would like to ask (I mentioned it in the tech-tree UI thread, and I hope it has been read), is NOT to make too many techs. Please, no more GalCiv2. And I am not talking about the lack of diversity (sure, it was somewhat changed in expansions, but still the techs were very similar, as well as the tech chains), but about tons of meaningless technologies. NO MORE +20 to attack divided into 10 parts! Make them cumulative, so that someone has to invest serious amount of resources to develop a specific thread. This way choosing a tech path becomes even more important.
Second request (somewhat linked with the previous one) is that you make the techs UNIQUE. I hope you know what I mean.
well, it would be regrettable if either production or economy were to equal scientific progress. I would rather science be some-how unique and separate ... although Im not currently sure as to the best way to go about this. Normally, the amount of commerce/money a nation has (in these such games) the more they can research. Sure a good economy could lend to an easier set-up of research, but I would rather avoid a slider to devote X% to gold and X% to science, rather I would want science to be its own, separate key investment, where science and gold are not interchangable.
I personally like how it was handled in Alpha Centauri. First and foremost, if you want to choose blind technology, you can (in the options) before starting a game. From there, every so often when you make a tech breakthrough you get a window, asking you what your scientists should focus on next (conquering, exploring, discovery, etc.)
From there, techs would increase in tiers, and you would decide the generalized direction and what would come of it. For example, researching into conquering technologies would yield new weapon options to study about, while at the same time new techs in other dominions are open. And learning one thing may lead to another...you may learn enough in Conquering to gain access to ships. You need the knowledge of ships to go out and built stuff in the water and on the shore.
OR...let certain things happen because of techs. For example, I'm researching Production, and I get the knowledge to build a blacksmith. I'm so excited, I build said smithy, and some guys go to work there. I then turn my attention to, say, farming. As I'm studying farming, the smith knocks on my door, says, "Hey, boss! I've been playing around with stuff in my spare time, and I learned how to make a sword!". From there, the Swords tech is available, with the first one given.
Building a farm would give me a chance to increase knowledge on farming, and that randomness would occur based on farming. Perhaps I begin with bone tools. Then, one day, a farmer, a carpenter, and a blacksmith go into a tavern and come out with an idea for a hoe. They come to me, say "Hey! We combined our talents, and we made this fancy tool for farming!"
That way, randomness could happen just be building enough in areas. If I have 20 farms build, 10 smithies, and 10 carpentries (is that a real word?), then I have 20 farmers, 10 smiths, and 10 carpenters. They're all going to think about what they want, and maybe they'll get together and work it out. But, if I'm not willing to wait for them to figure it out, I just go to my researchers and tell them to start working on farming stuff, and get the hoe technology that way.
In such a manner, you would accumulate a greater chance at random happenings for each building you have aligned with an area. Armories and barracks may think up new weapons for soldiers, just as a smith might. You can research them normally along a tech tree, but I don't like the idea of having X number of farms, or smiths, or whatever and not have them think up something new once in a while.
This could help to balance out relative "catagories" of research, assuming you have a limited amount of space in which to place a limited number of buildings, so decisions need to be made.
In this way, it would essentially be impossible to be the best at everything ... Although I think there should be some system where the larger a city is, the more its buildings count towards this randomness ... (or rather larger proportionally speaking), so that a small nation with a 20,000 capital can have the same level of specialization (and effectiveness) as a nation with a 60,000 capital and several 20,000 cities.
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