Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!
This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.
BUGS
Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:
- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously
- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously
- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots
- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.
- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.
- Random Map Bugs:
- Single Phase lane starts
- No connected Asteroids
- Overlapping Gravity Wells
- Backwards Dunov Icon
- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)
- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock
- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul
- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.
- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING
- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).
CAPITAL SHIPS
This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.
Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)
Increase hp/shields/armor?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay-
Increase DPS?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon CallenExile Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Onigiri
Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Hrabandur Onigiri
Re-work Animosity?
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Hrabandur Onigiri
No Change needed- CoBBQ
Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)
Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- CallenExile MindsEye
No Change needed-
Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)
Buff Scramble Bombers?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Onigiri
Buff Replicate Forces?
Yay- Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)
Increase AM regen?
Yay- Darvin3 Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- CallenExile Mindseye Onigiri
Increase maximum AM?
Yay- CallenExile Darvin3 Hrabandur Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon Onigiri
Increase Dunov EMP range?
Yay- CallenExile Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?
Yay- Mindseye CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Deceiver_0
Nay- Ryat Volt_Cruelerz Warlord Mike Swordsalmon Onigiri
Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon
Buff Phase out hull?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- Ryat Onigiri
No Change Needed-
DELIVERANCE ENGINE
Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)
Buff Deliverance engine-
Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Kitkun Greyfox2 anteachtaire Mow Mow Warlord Mike Hrabandur Arthanis
Nay- Howdidudothat
No buff needed- Qu4r Darvin3 CallenExile
EMPIRE TREE
As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?
Adjust Empire Tree-
Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 SwordSalmon JSW_Ballz Mindseye Agent of Kharma Ryat 52500 Mow Mow Fuzzy Logic EadTaes Warlord Mike Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile
FIGHTERS
Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions
Buff Fighters-
Increase armor/hp?
Yay- Mindseye Mow Mow Greyfox2 Qu4r Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Ryat Top Vasari Warlord Mike EadTaes Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma CallenExile CrazyElectron
MAPS
Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?
Magnetic Clouds-
Allow starbase deployment?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Hrabandur Juletron Howdidudothat Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r CrazyElectron
Nay- Ryat CallenExile EadTaes DesConnor -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician
Ice/Volcanic planets-
Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Ryat Darvin3 Juletron Mindseye Mow Mow EadTaes JSW_Ballz Howdidudothat Warlord Mike Kitkun Ovi_187 -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CrazyElectron
Nay- CallenExile DesConnor DirtySanchezz Hrabandur Agent of Kharma Qu4r
No Changes needed-
ORKULUS STARBASE
This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.
Nerf Orkulus-
Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)
Yay- Greyfox2 Raging Amish(3x) Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Cykur Howdidudothat Top Vasari Swordsalmon Ryat anteachtaire LordMechanoid JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike Agent of Kharma DesConnor DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Qu4r CallenExile
Other-
SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")
Yay- Mindseye Deceiver_0 Howdidudothat Top Vasari Cykur LordMechanoid Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CallenExile CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- JSW_Ballz DesConnor Qu4r
SCOUT FRIGATES
A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.
Nerf Scouts-
Decrease hp/shields?
Yay-
Nay- DirtySanchezz Cykur Arthanis
Decrease DPS?
Yay- DirtySanchezz Greyfox2 Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Cykur
Increase Cost/supply?
Yay- Mindseye Cykur Swordsalmon
Nay- DirtySanchezz Arthanis
No Nerf Needed- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma Sivcorp 52500 JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron
Balance Scouts-
Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Mow Mow Swordsalmon Darvin3 Ryat Greyfox2 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur Top Vasari LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat CallenExile
Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?
Yay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat Greyfox2 Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Wingflier Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat CallenExile 52500 LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician JSW_Ballz Cykur Greyfox2 Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?
Yay- Mow Mow Swordsalmon Howdidudothat Ryat Chaotic Magician 52500 JSW_Ballz Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- Wingflier DirtySanchezz Darvin3 CallenExile Cykur Greyfox2 LordMechanoid Kitkun
Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?
Yay- Mow Mow Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician Sivcorp Top Vasari Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid
No Balance Needed- Agent of Kharma EadTaes DesConnor
RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS
While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?
Buff Skirmishers-
Increase DPS? Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes DesConnor Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- LordMechanoid
Decrease Supply cost?
Yay- Raging Amish LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Resource cost?
Yay- 52500 Warlord Mike
Nay- Darvin3 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat DirtySanchezz Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid lbgsloan Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r Arthanis
Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp Runesia DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
I downloaded forge tools specifically for you kitty, and though I do not know if I opened the right file (at first I thought I did, now I think it might've been an old one or whatever... still... I dunno).
damageEnums
AttackType "ANTIMODULE"
DamageAffectType "AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL"
DamageApplyType "OVERTIME"
DamageType "ENERGY"
WeaponClassType "CHAOSBOLT"
DamagePerBank:FRONT 164.0000
DamagePerBank:BACK 164.000000
DamagePerBank:LEFT 164.000000
DamagePerBank:RIGHT 164.000000
Range 6000.000000
PreBuffCooldownTime 9.000000
CanFireAtFighter FALSE
SynchronizedTargeting TRUE
PointStaggerDelay 0.900000
TravelSpeed 1300.000000
Duration 0.000000
What also makes me wonder is the green duration. I've read somewhere that the "Duration" means over how long the damage is applied. What's the point of OVERTIME damage with zero duration? Illums have it set to 2.50000. One of those crazy nights, IC?a bug?Duh®?
Perhaps it has to do with the size of the projectile. I've never zoomed in close enough to tell, but perhaps the round isn't created in one instant, but rather over time. That would also explain it.
Either that, or the devs got bored of putting backloaded...
*facedesk*
@N3- "duration" actually is used to control how long a beam weapon's effects are applied. Not the damage, but only the effects.
Damage apply types (BACKLOADED&OVERTIME) control how damage is applied to a target. BACKLOADED damage applies all damage from a given weapon when the last particle effect/effect hits the target; OVERTIME simply applies the same amount of damage but over a duration instead of all at once.
Ironically, the only time I've ever used BACKLOADED damage for custom ships in mods I've made is when a ship has a single weapon hardpoint firing a single effect. I simply prefer OVERTIME damage for anything else due to the greater realism.
First of all, 40 HC's - before we even start counting support - costs more than a fully upgraded starbase. Secondly, they'll take significant losses if they charge a fully upgraded starbase without support, and if the starbase is supported by even a couple good support cruisers they'll probably lose. And if your opponent has a good fleet nearby that's suicide even if the starbase isn't fully upgraded.
The Vasari starbase attack, however, is great because it doesn't require you to send a huge fleet component or even to outnumber the enemy. Using the minefield as a protective area and your overseers for heals, it takes MASSIVE force (usually twice as much fleet as the Vasari has supporting the starbase) to route it out. That's expensive to do, for sure, but it's powerful in a way that 40 HC's can never be.
Sb as an aussult makes up in locking down a system and force projection in that system.40 hc =400 fleet supply.30hc +fully uped sb = about same fleet supply.Meaning you win.Other guy has to up his fleet supply taking a hit on his eco while u can projoect much more force for the supply.Ya its exp to get up and running but it pays itself back easy by winning you a system and locking it down.Very handy tool.Did you guys look at my replay?Proves how a much smaller vas fleet can take down a much larger tec army + eco.Ya I got fed some but I didnt have any tp or neutrals and my ally didnt have tp that I saw.My enemy had 2 deserts filled with tp with an excellent eco and I beat him.Vas already have good tools for the job.It also proved how effective offensively the orky can be.I crippled his eco with orkies while he tried to deal with my fleet.Im not even talkin about a spammer he had hc hoshis flak and large numbers of javs.You cant do that crap with other sbs.Vas can very easily this patch take up the number 1 slot because of the orky.
Sorry Darvin, I should have clarified. The Orkulus is not efficient enough to assault defensive positions. It doesnt matter if ruiners can lock down a planet if the Orkulus can't break through the Defenses already in place. And eveything fully upgaded on both sides, the Orkulus won't be able to do it because its the MAIN weapon it uses to destroy structures is not upgradeable, where as all the buildings it would use that weapon against are. I have played the BEST Vasari players, and I guarantee you all of them would say that they'd rather use bombers to attack defensive positions then waste the time and money to build an Orkulus that can't even handle the defenses on its own. But whats a Vasari player to do if Bombers aren't a good option. God forbid there be a Kol or two, or a Halo or two guarding the structures.
If you were to take the cost of just the Starbases construction and 8 upgrades(sb/weapon/hp/armor/ability techs aside) and apply that cost to Orgrovs, Adjudicators or Carriers, you'd have a VASTLY superior structure busting force (and a halfway decent fleet busting force if you went with carriers).
Dont get me wrong, disintegrators are pretty good early game, and decent mid-game, but late game they dont serve their purpose. Thats why they need to be upgradeable. They need to be able to overcome the added armor/hp/shields/shield mitigation/repair of late game structures.
Doesnt the 3 weapons up the weapon damage by 20%?Thats basically what your askin for anyway.
Let me illustrate what I, and I belive n3rull mean:
Lvl 2 Lvl3 Weapons techs Defense techs (+10%)
Orky-
Pulse Gun:143------------> 179 +20% 214 235
Disintegrator:73-----------> 87 87 95 <max dmg
Phase Missile:130--------> 156 +30% 202 222
Total: 346---------------> 415 503 552
Argy-
Laser:117 +20% 140 154
Beam:128 +20% 153 168
Missile:120 + 30% 156 171
Total: 365 449 493
Tranny-
Laser:106 + 30% 137 150
Psionics:120 120 132
Plasma:128 + 30% 166 182
Total: 354 423 465
So heres a chart based on the infocards, lets evaluate. At lvl2 Orky does the least amount of damage. Lvl3 puts it up above the others, and keeps it there. After all the upgrades, Orky does the most damage, which is fine considering it has no AOE abilities but can move anywhere in the grav well. Heres where I got a problem- after all upgrades, disintegrators only do 95 damage. Now against ships I get that thats somewhat made up for by the staggering pulse gun damage. But against structures? Its supposed to be an assault weapon. Well you get the anti-module bonus so that helps. But then later in the game you're dealing with structures that get up to 30% more hp, 30% more shields, up to 72% damage reduced by mitigation, up to 4 shields restored per second, up to 40 hp restored per second and/or up to 6 extra armor (and thats only by other structures, that doesnt include ships abilities). Is it really too much to ask to be able to upgrade disintegrators to do 20% more damage (putting them at a max of 114). I mean that isnt game breaking is it? Will that allow them tear through fleets? No, but it'll add a little bit more damage (anti-module isnt that great against ships, probably the extra damage equivalent of a hand full of skirmishers or assailants) Will that increase their efficiency against defenses? Certainly. I don't see any harm in increasing their assault efficiency, especially since you cant increase your antistructure damage by adding more assault ships or purchasing weapons techs (as the other 2 races can do).
I edited this in way after I had posted my last post, so I figure I'll cut it out and paste it down here:
So... My thoughts: Tie Disints in with Pulse Beam *and* double the upgrade bonus for both weapons.
On an unrelated note, make Magnetic Clouds restore hull and antimatter.
Making the disintegrator a better weapon is on the level; the only thing I'm rejecting outright is giving the Orky uncapped area of effect abilities.
I disagree but I do see your point. Anyways as for "choking out" you enemy, if you happen to take out enemy repair bays, whats to say he doesnt rebuild them while you're healing up the Orky? If you're attacking his territory you have to worry about more than just repair bays. YOu may have overseers, but then again he may have hoshis, guardians, subjugators, adjudicators, orgovs. If you're fleet is there and you spent the time to build and fully upgrade an orky, wheres his fleet? I've been on the vasari side of this equation. I played a game against howler, and we jsut stalemated at his HW for like an hour an a half. By the time I finally gave up (due to ally AI death) I had Overseers, a fully upped Orky (I ended up using the last upgrade for debris vortex instead of frontal shields, woops) and around 80-100 bombers. He had his SB, 20 or so flak, a couple of Kols, repair bays and hangars galore, and eventually his ally built an Orky in the well too. I mean this was awhile ago and I made mistakes, but it shouldnt have been that difficult to crack that defense. I went in, blew up plenty of buildings, but had to pull back everytime, and while healing up, hed just rebuild everything. Im not saying the defense was unbreakable, Im just saying that had I been another race, it certainly wouldnt have taken very long.
AND NOW come the time you have to remember that Tranny and argo does capitalship type damage with all weapon, meaning they all do 100% to everything except caps, light and structures, to which they do 75%.At the same time disintegrators do anti-module which hammers down the laughably low damage against light and medium armor while pulse guns have anti-heavy which is nerfed to boot (50%!) against HCs and caps.
The added damage does not mean DPS. While argo and tranny do 100% of their DPS to everything but LRFs, caps and structures (to which they do 75%), Orky's antiheavy pulse guns and anti-mod disintegrators FOUL ITS REAL DPS royally against LRFs, HCs and caps, which are the most important targets, while boosting its DPS against heavy armor, whole primary user is the CARRIER which by common sense IS going to stay away from the Orky.
THAT's what I mean.
I say again, no AOEs needed. Just level out the damage on all Orky's weapons to 110-120ish (Pulse guns 110 so that a fresh orky does slightly less startup damage for being able to move, disints 120-130 cause they're short-range and unupgradeable, leave PMs), make them all capitalship type (just like all other SBs have their weapons) and add a damage bonus against structures to disintegrator array just like the the Vulkoras is given by taking assault specialization. Have each disintegrator salvo do extra 50/100/150 or 60/90/120 or whatever extra damage do structures (on level 1/2/3 of offensive upgrade). That would solve the issue completely, because the lack of upgrades for Disintegrators would be remedied by the phase missiles' superiority.
I just disagree with you guys.Orky is best sb in game.Dis tears up structures pretty fast.Its basically the only sb I use in mp on a regular basis.Its not the best defending sb but best all around.I have been attacked with an orky against my sb with overseers healing it while it attacks you dont even need to retreat it to heal.Against a good vas player they are extremely tuff to defend against and you have to have your own fleet to do it.It just sounds like you guys want the orky to do everything byitself.Its spose to be realy hard to crack a heavily entrenched player from all races which it is.Why should it be easy for vas?Another point I have is all the talk about how this is vas anti sb ship.How long it takes to build an orky and up it.Well it takes a long time to research ogrovs and build enuf to destroy a heavily entrenched sb.Also you have to build a heavy fleet to escort them.Same for advent.long time to build 40-50 bombers.You know what?While advent and tec have to fleet up to higher levels to gain these large fleets.Fleeting costs alot of eco you can never get back.Its not so for vas.Orky allows a much smaller fleet to support it and is tons more reliable at what it does then a fleet.Would you rather have 15-20 ogrovs or a fully upped sb supporting your fleet?I think orky.
From deceiver's chart it appears that orky's do the most damage out of them all. Even if the modifiers don't favor them with disruptors it still evens out. If you cut disruptor damage in half it would still put them even with everyone else. Add that in to the orky's superior tanking abilities and I don't see what you guys are griping about EXCEPT AE attacks which the orky does not need. Its understandable to want it upgradeable through research, deceiver, but I am not sure that it needs it. Personally I consider the thing already somewhat OP and would be hesitant to make it further so unless it was nerfed in another way.
[_]-Greyfox
THIS NERFS THE PULSE GUN DAMAGE BY HALF AGAINST HCs AND CAPS!!! THAT's THE PROBLEM!!!Plus disintegrators , with already laughable DPS, do 25% to LRFs. all summed up gives you that orky deals the LEAST of all SBs unless at offensive 3 upgrade!
your comment either points at your lack of understanding for this game (LFs do about the same damage in the tooltip as LRFs do so I bet they are a fair match for LRFs! Yay!) or your total ignorance of what everybody was saying.
I do not think I need to defend my knowledge of the game. If you would like, you can see on the various player lists in the multiplayer section to see how others see me as a player. You can call me ignorant all you like if it makes you feel like you are winning the discussion that way. It makes no difference to me.
In my many games played against vasari, I tell you that assaulting an upgraded orkulus is an iffy thing even with a large fleet without the use of bombers. Even with bombers its iffy if there is any semblance of support. The point I have repeatedly stressed is that the orkulus trades damage dealing for tanking ability. It is not underpowered and is considered to be one of the main STRENGTHS of playing vasari.
Yes, I've heard hundreds of "experience based" arguments.
Like "WTF are you talking about, I've used Vulkoras a thousand times and Assault Spec is awesome for bombarding planets!!!". And then the next patch log brings a fix for an assault spec bug that nerfed Vulkoras' bombardment speed instead of boosting it.
It's big, it's tough and it moves, so obviously everyone sees it as über.
Yes, atm it hurt. Reason of Many Vas buffs on Caps balance list is creating some synergies between Vasari caps.
Heres where I think you guys are missing my point. The Orkulus is great early, game, its great mid-game, but it not that great at what its SUPPOSED TO DO late game. All Im proposing is making it a little bit better at what its supposed to do in the face of all the different upgrades its enemies can get. You're all correct in that it is one of the Vasaris greatest assets, but the power of it falters late game. It really needs something to help it out during this time, especially since its relied so heavily upon as all you guys say it is.
Its weird that this EXACT arguement has been brought up before by n3rull, but last time I was on the oppposing side. Since then Ive changed my mind due to the poor performace of the Orky as an Assault weapon late game. All Im asking for is a researchable damage boost (+19) to disintegrators to give them it a little extra oomph at taking down upgraded structures and defenses. I know that the Orky is the Vasari's shining jewel, I just want to keep it that way throughout the entire span of a game. Its not a huge buff, its not going to effect the early or mid game gameplay. Its not going to make the thing super OP. Like the 2 damage buff to skirms, its just to help it do its job. Minds, Grey, Darvin, Ive heard from you that you think the Orky is a tank, I agree. Minds says its great at taking down structures, I agree that it is before those structures are upgraded, and if those structures are not in a defensive cluster. But how can you say the Orkies structure killing power (a major part of what it is meant to do) stays consistent after all the upgrades structures and defenses can get? I get that it sacrifices a lot of things to be mobile, but one of those things shouldnt be its structure killing power, because thats THE MAIN reason it moves in the first place, so it can attack enemy structures, so it can be an assault weapon.
With the illum nerf, Vasari are IMO the strongest late game faction. I don't see a problem. It's not great at what it does late game, but it's still a useful tool.
Since the vasari SB is the vasari anti-structure weapon, I see no problem giving the disintegrators an upgrade to help it FULFILL ITS ROLE AS AN ANTI-STRUCTURE WEAPON. Upping disintegrators wouldn't make the thing OP or allow it to kill fleets any better. It would just help it DO ITS JOB OF KILLING STRUCTURES. Ogrovs and Adjudicators don't have problems killing structures, why should the orky?
Ogrovs don't have problems killing single structures quickly. Starfish don't do crap to single targets(SBs included) but do better with groups of targets. They are not that great at any rate and you would be better off with bombers. Orky at least can damage other things and does decent damage to structures. It is more comparable to starfish in its anti-structure role but at least it can take a hit and not be wasted resources after a run or 2 of SC without doing what they were built to do(like starfish).
Grey, after playing with an orky last night, I'm gonna have to throw out your statement.
I sent a FULLY (repeat, FULLY) upgraded Orky into a cloud of about 10-15 structures owned by the computer (TEC), and it had virtually ALL guns firing on everything - it took around 20+ volleys from the disints to kill ANYTHING. A group of 10 Ogrovs? One attack, and it's dead.
Again, I push for a 50% damage increase on Disints.
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