Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!
This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.
BUGS
Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:
- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously
- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously
- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots
- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.
- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.
- Random Map Bugs:
- Single Phase lane starts
- No connected Asteroids
- Overlapping Gravity Wells
- Backwards Dunov Icon
- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)
- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock
- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul
- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.
- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING
- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).
CAPITAL SHIPS
This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.
Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)
Increase hp/shields/armor?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay-
Increase DPS?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon CallenExile Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Onigiri
Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Hrabandur Onigiri
Re-work Animosity?
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Hrabandur Onigiri
No Change needed- CoBBQ
Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)
Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- CallenExile MindsEye
No Change needed-
Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)
Buff Scramble Bombers?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Onigiri
Buff Replicate Forces?
Yay- Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)
Increase AM regen?
Yay- Darvin3 Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- CallenExile Mindseye Onigiri
Increase maximum AM?
Yay- CallenExile Darvin3 Hrabandur Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon Onigiri
Increase Dunov EMP range?
Yay- CallenExile Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?
Yay- Mindseye CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Deceiver_0
Nay- Ryat Volt_Cruelerz Warlord Mike Swordsalmon Onigiri
Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon
Buff Phase out hull?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- Ryat Onigiri
No Change Needed-
DELIVERANCE ENGINE
Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)
Buff Deliverance engine-
Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Kitkun Greyfox2 anteachtaire Mow Mow Warlord Mike Hrabandur Arthanis
Nay- Howdidudothat
No buff needed- Qu4r Darvin3 CallenExile
EMPIRE TREE
As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?
Adjust Empire Tree-
Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 SwordSalmon JSW_Ballz Mindseye Agent of Kharma Ryat 52500 Mow Mow Fuzzy Logic EadTaes Warlord Mike Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile
FIGHTERS
Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions
Buff Fighters-
Increase armor/hp?
Yay- Mindseye Mow Mow Greyfox2 Qu4r Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Ryat Top Vasari Warlord Mike EadTaes Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma CallenExile CrazyElectron
MAPS
Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?
Magnetic Clouds-
Allow starbase deployment?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Hrabandur Juletron Howdidudothat Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r CrazyElectron
Nay- Ryat CallenExile EadTaes DesConnor -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician
Ice/Volcanic planets-
Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Ryat Darvin3 Juletron Mindseye Mow Mow EadTaes JSW_Ballz Howdidudothat Warlord Mike Kitkun Ovi_187 -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CrazyElectron
Nay- CallenExile DesConnor DirtySanchezz Hrabandur Agent of Kharma Qu4r
No Changes needed-
ORKULUS STARBASE
This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.
Nerf Orkulus-
Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)
Yay- Greyfox2 Raging Amish(3x) Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Cykur Howdidudothat Top Vasari Swordsalmon Ryat anteachtaire LordMechanoid JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike Agent of Kharma DesConnor DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Qu4r CallenExile
Other-
SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")
Yay- Mindseye Deceiver_0 Howdidudothat Top Vasari Cykur LordMechanoid Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CallenExile CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- JSW_Ballz DesConnor Qu4r
SCOUT FRIGATES
A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.
Nerf Scouts-
Decrease hp/shields?
Yay-
Nay- DirtySanchezz Cykur Arthanis
Decrease DPS?
Yay- DirtySanchezz Greyfox2 Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Cykur
Increase Cost/supply?
Yay- Mindseye Cykur Swordsalmon
Nay- DirtySanchezz Arthanis
No Nerf Needed- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma Sivcorp 52500 JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron
Balance Scouts-
Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Mow Mow Swordsalmon Darvin3 Ryat Greyfox2 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur Top Vasari LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat CallenExile
Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?
Yay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat Greyfox2 Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Wingflier Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat CallenExile 52500 LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician JSW_Ballz Cykur Greyfox2 Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?
Yay- Mow Mow Swordsalmon Howdidudothat Ryat Chaotic Magician 52500 JSW_Ballz Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- Wingflier DirtySanchezz Darvin3 CallenExile Cykur Greyfox2 LordMechanoid Kitkun
Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?
Yay- Mow Mow Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician Sivcorp Top Vasari Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid
No Balance Needed- Agent of Kharma EadTaes DesConnor
RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS
While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?
Buff Skirmishers-
Increase DPS? Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes DesConnor Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- LordMechanoid
Decrease Supply cost?
Yay- Raging Amish LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Resource cost?
Yay- 52500 Warlord Mike
Nay- Darvin3 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat DirtySanchezz Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid lbgsloan Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r Arthanis
Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp Runesia DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
(claps eagerly upon reading Deciever's post) Hear, hear!
+1 Karma!
That was you, Deceiver?
Keep in mind I had pretty well researched every relevent technology on the military tree (maxed out phase missiles, armor, hull, starbase weapon banks and durability upgrades, etc.) so that starbase was pretty well as good as they come.
Aye it was . You had a fully upgraded starbase, absolutely as high as it gets, as you stated, but I also had my illuminators research quite high up, and it wasnt a shred fest as per normal. Took me awhile just to get through that Transcencia with 1 defense upgrade. The bug fix made a massive difference. I'd say had I had my upgrades maxed and it was just Your orky versus my fleet, I still probably woulndt have beaten it, and if I did, it would be by a hair.
Tell me Deceiver, wouldn't a fully upped Transcencia screw you just as royally with its meteors and disorient? Wouldn't an Argonev be as much of a nuisance when backed up by a small fleet, permanently repaired and rebuilt?
Being a tough nut doesn't solve the problem. Sure I can max all armor stuff in the military tree, give the orky 4 def ups and frontal shields and 2 offensive ups. But that orky will be doing less than a trancy without meteors, 20% less against lrfs and 30% less against HCs; it will not have enforced loyalty, not strike craft, no debris vortex, no merchant bays. It gives absolutely no profit to have - all of that only in order to be NO WORSE in combat than any other SB with 2 less ups bought and 5500 creds not spent.
Doesn't make sense to me.
Orky should do the same amounts of damage as other SBs do on the same offensive ups level to ships. It should do slightly/moderately more to other starbases than they do to it. Building 4th def and 3rd off upgrades should make the orky royally better in combat, because there is just one more slot available for enforced loyalty and THAT's IT.Right now, building 3rd off finally allows the orky to catch the other damage-wise, cause below that upgrade level it is WORSE.Stoopahd.
Orky - can - move.
Other - SB -can't.
IMO it is reason of relatively weaker offence capabilities of Orky. You pay % of firepower and armor for ability to relocate your SB if needed. Of course in direct combat 5up Orky will die to 5Up Transcendentia or Argonev... but none of them is able to move.
Anyway - what is wrong with increasing number of Orky build slots?
I didnt say the Orky was fine now, not by any means. I was just saying it withstood an illuminator fleet no problem, and its a relief to know that illuminators wont be swatting orkies like flies anymore. I still think that the Orky deserves some sort of large fleet punishing ability to keep late game fleets from just running it over like roadkill. I think the root of the problem is that disintegrators dont scale like every other weapon. As the game progresses, shields get tougher, hulls get stronger, armor get thicker, but disintegrators stay the same. I really think the 3rd offensive upgrade (for as expensive as it is) should also upgrade the firepower of disintegrators, and I certainly woulndt mind if it added some splash damage to them to allow the Orky to damage more than a set number of targets like the other SBs can do (ie meteors/BRB). At least something that will make a person think twice about trying to just plow through the Orky and overwhelming it with numbers. I see the difference as a Damage cap: Orky can only do a set amount per second to a fleets hp, where as Argonevs BRB can erase a fleet in an instant, and Trascenscias can pummel close proximity fleets with space rocks. Both those abilities give those Starbases an unlimited potential for damage, where as the Orkies is fixed. I think splash damage on disintegrators would allow it more potential damage, without imbalancing the fact that it moves. It would give it a weaker AOE effect than the other two, but an AOE effect nonetheless. That aside, there needs to be a way to upgrade disintegrators damage. As anti-module damage, you can upgrade the damage of Ogrovs and Adjudicators, but not disintegrators, and theres something wrong with that.
Arthanis- The problem I have with increasing upgrade slots is as follows. 1) Increasing upgrade slots would really only serve to better the Orkulus's surviveability, as one would no doubt sink the extra two upgrade slots into its defensive abilities. I dont think thats the Orkies problem though. I think its problem is its capped damage output. The game I played with Darvin today illustrated this point. It took my Transcencia under 2 minutes to destroy half, and critically damage the rest of my opponents illuminators. Had I been TEC, his fleet would've been gone in an instant. The battle with Darvins fully upped Orkulus lasted well over 10 minutes, during which time I could have replaced a large portion of my fleet (it was an end-game battle so I didnt, i was just Kamikazing my fleet into my enemies defenses for Ss and Gs). The problem was, his Orkulus, despite having every upgrade possible, could not overcome my 1 progenitors lvl 3 shield restoration coupled with guardians shield projection. I only started to lose ships when I ran out of AM and the remaining half of my Advent opponents fleet started picking off my ships. Eventually, after a long drawn out fight, the Orkulus finally wore down my fleets overall HP to the point where I started losing ships 2 to 3 at a time, and could not restore shields fast enough due to lack of AM. But what if I had more than 1 progen? what if I had subjugators to help keep my ships healthy? The battle would have gone on for much longer than would against either of the other two SBs. Orky doesnt dish out enough damage to overcome repair and support abilities later in the game, where against Trannies and Argies, it doesnt matter how much you can repair and support your fleet, you're gonna take some severe damage. And 2) I would expect quite a bit of protest from Orky haters out there for giving it 2 more upgrade slots than any other SB, no doubt they would cite "THE DAMN THING CAN MOVE!!" as their reasoning. But I agree it really isnt fair to have 1 Sb with more upgradeables than the others. A better solution would to focus on making the Orkies current upgrades serve it better, and maybe give it reasonable AOE damage.
Deceiver's post above QFT.
You got it wrong Arthanis:
Orky - can - moveOther - SBs - can't
So:
Orky has reduced firepower which it needs to pay double for and waste an extra slot to make even with other sbs,reduced (as in - none) fleet supporting capability (no boons, no production, no disorient - which helps your fleet as well)no aoe effects (no red button, meteors, disorient)no good money-making effects (one merchant bays, crappy colony pods which you don't have slots for anyway!!!)
the orky pays in both firepower AND general utility.
And for what? Moving. Mooooooving sloooooooowly. If something wants to run away, it will. If something wants to skip the orky, it will. Hell, it's even doable to kite the orky around a planet with siege frigs!Sure, you get to cut the ogrov's range advantage short. That's a big bonus. You get to bring LRMs into disintegrator range - great thing, counting how laughable damage disintegrators do to LRfs. What else... you're not gonna catch carriers, so forget it.
The ability to move is big, but not really big enough to justify the orky being nerfed in ALL its functions.
Ok N3, so what in your opinion should be done with Orky to make this SB balanced?
Splash to Disints?
More Upgrade slots available?
More Healt/damage per upgrade?
Abilities buff?
Hmm, this is what I think should be done for the Orky's abilities-
1) drop deflector shield, or change it to be better. ATM it just isn't useful in many situations.
2) give it a fleet support-type abilities, whether it's something that cripples enemy ships a la Mass Disorient, or something that heals friendly fleets, or whatever.
3) if that isn't possible, than an anti-SB death beam would be the best option. The Orky simply doesn't have the firepower right now as noted.
Probably an interesting way to buff the Orky would be to make Debris Vortex suck up enemy SC (as suggested a couple page back). This would do 2 things- 1. make the Debris Vortex upgrade very attractive, and 2. make it useful for more than simply healing an Orky.
So what you guys are saying is that in addition to being very tough to crack and being able to move that you want to give it an AE to make it equivalent to the other 2 SB. If thats so, I want my transcencia to be able to move and to be just as tough to crack. That would be just lovely. Then we can all have orky's and nothing would be different. I would love to be able to rush a HW with a moving transcencia. Can I place an order for illums to be tripled in damage too while I am at it?
So without the sarcasm.... you basically said your bunch of illums even with illusions did shit to the orky while he slowly wore you down because you ran out of AM on your shield restore. My own experience has been the same. You also say that they should be given an AE as well so not only can you not touch it but it can wipe out an entire fleet at the same time. It sacrifices some offense by being hard to kill. That seems to be the way it was intended/designed to be. Basically any fleet that attacks it has to avoid it like the plague(pretty much what happens now unless you catch it building) and keep running around away from it or you will lose an entire fleet slowly but surely. God forbid having someone rush your hw with it with a 1 or 2 skirantra because you won't likely be able to do anything but kiss your ass goodbye. The orkulus certainly does not need buffed. I am sure it would make quar, howthe, and the other vasari players happy though but being that does not mean its balanced.
[_]-Greyfox
I completely agree with grey here.Look at vas.The thing can move.You put a pji in well and orky is a death trap.Not so for other sb.You just fly past them.You cant really use other sb for offense either.Vas have phase gates.Even one on sb.SO YOU CAN WARP YOUR FLEET FROM ANYWHERE TO SUPPORT IT.You cannot do this with others.If your fleet is away kiss sb goodbye to mass bombers or another vas sb.Add in a few subs and you can never retreat from an orky.Deflector is off for 30 sec you say?Well subs disable for 20 sec?Just one can disable 30-40 ships.The other benefit to orky is vas can use them for offense which cuts down on their fleet supply needs and bolsters their planets.Build speeds upgrades for the orky as well.Sneak a ship past his fleet and start sbing his worlds and killin all his structures and reinforcements.This tactic can make them double back and delay them for min while you build.I have used it.You give up defensive capabilities for offensive.The other sb are purely offensive period.What keeps other sb fleet killin abilities in check is they cant move.Meaning its up to you to sacrifice your fleet or not.With orky its up to defender when he attacks.Vas have the tools to defend against any attack.Subs are really op more so then repulse.
Oh ya dont preach to me bout subs tier 6.We are talkin about fully uped sb and huge ilum fleets here.You have neutrals and plenty of time to get 5-10 subs or phase traps.Even overseers more easily.Vas have hands down the strongest disabling and healing abilities of the game.They have best mines ingame too which can destroy entire fleets same amount of time as meteor.
Here is what i mean.used ork on back worlds and defeated much larger fleet without an orky even.
http://www.filefront.com/15501241/Mine%20ownage.record
What is wrong with increasing Orkulus upgrade slots to 10? IMO it has potential of fixing all problems. Vas player to get same firepower as Advent/TEC player will be still forced to buy 2 extra upgrades, but will still have enough slots for something extra.
N3, you just about said it all.
Being able to move does NOT instantly make the Orky superior to other ships. Damage dealt is downright pathetic, and one of those damage types ISN'T UPGRADED AT ALL.
So, to reiterate, my opinions on what should happen:
1. Boost Disint. damage by 50%2. Make Pulse Beam Upgrades affect Disints.3. Change Pulse Gun damage to Composite (Currently Anti-Heavy (good luck catching carriers!))
Seriously, people, the Orky's had to put up with enough bullsh!t already.
Why should Vasari have to pay for two more, enormous-cost upgrades just to be on par with Advent and TEC? It sounds like a great idea but the costs for upgrades makes it negilable.
Because you start with mobility. Nobody force you to build all 10 upgrades, but if you want, you can get mobile equivalent of ther factions SBs (for extra cost). In simple words you pay for extra mobility - if you want extra mobility AND same firepower as other space stations, you must pay extra. Anyway, If you already have 8 upgrades buying another 2 is not going to kill your eco.
Giving Orky same firepower for same cost as other factions have AND keeping it only one mobile Space Station in game (mobility is giving HUGE versatility boost) is unfair. IMO these 2 extra upgrade slots are giving Orky nice boost without making it OP in anything (since everything cost...)
With 10 upgrades you can build all armor/weapon upgrades + lvl2 ability upgrade and you still have slot for something extra (tradeport? phase stabilizer?). Yes, you pay slightly more then TEC/Advent - but don't underestimate value of relocating SB during/before/after battle...
If we do 3., we may go beyond the call of duty. The anti-heavy is there to balance out the anti-module on disintegrators. Let me check....I updated my excel chart (which I used to give these results) with the composite attack type stats and changed the Orky's pulse guns to that damage. I thought the chart would go bananas, but it didn't. It almost perfectly jumped into position! However, domage done to light armor went crazy high.Right now a zero-upgrade orky does 27,9 DPS* to light armor. Argonev does 21.9, so that's already better (it's the first off up that screws the deal, because argonev receives another 24DPS while Orky's disintegrators do 4!!!!!!! DPS to light armor). If we change Pulse guns to composite, we would get 55.9 basic DPS* done to light armor! Now that's double the argonev here, that's OP!
No, I think that points 1 and 2 might do. The worst thing is not the LRFs but the HCs, and doing 1 and 2 will help this case immensely.
I THINK THE BEST WAY TO BALANCE THE DAMAGE on the Orky would be to:
- balance the damage of all weapons (nerf pulse guns to ~120 dps total from 149, buff Disints to ~110 from 73, leave PMs or nerf a bit) to roughly what Argonev does- make all damage types capital just like all other SBs do.- give Disintegrators (only) a scalable effect like Vulkoras' assault specialization, which is:-- on level 1 offensive, each shot does extra e.g. 80 damage to structures-- on level 2 offensive does e.g. 120 extra damage-- on level 3 off does ~150.
Voila, all damage fair.
Disagree; the other starbases get these abilities because they cannot move. It would be too much for the mobile Orkulus to be capable of uncapped area of effect abilities. I think it's perfectly fair that an Orkulus can be taken down brute force by a sufficiently large fleet, and the TEC/Advent starbases have abilities that can make this effectively impossible. The TEC and Advent starbases are trivial to avoid since they cannot move, but the Orkulus, especially supported by a fleet, has effective control over the entire gravity well.
Keep in mind that by the time such a late-game fleet that can steamroll an Orky exists, Vasari should have all their important late-game techs, including phase stabilizers which enable them ultra-fast response with their fleets, and possibly their omniscient phase jump sensors to have perfect intel on where your fleet is at all times. As far as I'm concerned, Vasari would be utterly unstoppable late game if their starbase was stronger than it is now.
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/367837/get;2526580
Someone check me and explain what, if anything, I'm doing wrong? Cuz I get the same numbers for phase Missiles and Pulse Guns, but not Desints.
Also I disagree that heavy cruiser spams are completely late-game stuff. One can have a decent amount of HCs in 30 minutes if fed. Diplomacy might push that back a bit, but I do not think it would be as dramatic a change.On the other hand, phase stabilizers are expensive both to make enough labs AND research AND build. I usually find myself building a Kostura before I really find a need for phase stabs.
I do, however, agree that Debris Vortex is enough for the Orky in terms of AOE effects. It can move, no AOEs, that's fine. But its damage HAS to be respectable for the Debris Vortex to work - a progen shield restore spam on a bunch of illums or a hoho spam on a bunch of kodis is enough to nullify 80% of a FULLY UPGRADED orky's damage. That's just wrong! Ok, I can attack only a handful of enemies instead of blasting them all at once, but let's at least make those few targets FEEL IT!
I'm not sure what you're doing wrong or whether you really are. Someone (Ryat or you) showed a simple way to add up damage of each bank on Pulse guns and magically got the tooltip DPS. So I figured the tooltip DPS is DPS on all banks, I divided it by four and used the number as my basis.
I think it may be the "DamageApplyType "OVERTIME" " thing that has something to do with the problem.Either the tooltip lies (which it generally does not when you reap through the numbers), I got misled and my chart needs fixing or that OVERTIME thing screws up your simple calculation.
Ah, you might be right. I didn't look at the in-game info card.
But thanks, I've been wondering if everyone magically knew something I didn't.
It sounds against to me. I don't see how it could be taken another way. Minds is not advocating that vasari be unstoppable. The thing is that you want to orkulus to be tougher than the other 2 SB and do the same amount of damage too. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You want to have it all but thats not balanced. The orkulus trades damage dealing for tanking ability and mobility. If an orkulus engages with a TEC or advent SB, it chooses when and how long. If it goes poorly it can always move out of range. Plus facing the SB to attack it allows frontal shield to work too decreasing the dps against it. Phase stabilizers are an option. Whether you see the merit to research it or not, it has its utility. Vasari sometimes can be everywhere at once while the other 2 races can't. That has a LOT of value.
Adding available slots is a bad idea as well especially if its not across the board rather than just vasari(which sounds to be what you are suggesting). It sounds as if you seek to give unfair advantage to vasari if you just want to give extra to vasari. The way things are now you have to make a choice about what you want your SB to do so. Do you sacrifice an ability to have more health/damage or vice versa? Adding more slots takes the specialization out.
I see your point Grey, Minds and Darvin, and agree that 10 upgrade slots is not fair. But I still think that it totally SUCKS that disintegrators do not scale with the game, and wouldnt mind if they were upgradeable. I like the idea of tieing them to pulse beam upgrades, since those are crappy anyways. I just cant accept disintegrators doing the same damage when enemy structures can get shields and shield mitigation and increased armor, Hp and repair. The Orkulus just isnt a great assault unit at all, its just not efficient enough.
Have you ever fought a good Vasari player. They warp in and immediately mine up your system. Overseers boost the constructing starbase to full health before you can blink. If you're not back in two or three minutes, they have your world locked down. That starbase has overseer support, the overseers are protected by a minefield, and the Vasari a big fleet in backup. The Orkulus is a powerful assault tool. Expensive and less efficient? For sure. But still one of the most powerful tools in the game.
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