Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!
This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.
BUGS
Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:
- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously
- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously
- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots
- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.
- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.
- Random Map Bugs:
- Single Phase lane starts
- No connected Asteroids
- Overlapping Gravity Wells
- Backwards Dunov Icon
- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)
- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock
- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul
- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.
- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING
- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).
CAPITAL SHIPS
This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.
Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)
Increase hp/shields/armor?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay-
Increase DPS?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon CallenExile Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Onigiri
Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Hrabandur Onigiri
Re-work Animosity?
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Hrabandur Onigiri
No Change needed- CoBBQ
Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)
Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- CallenExile MindsEye
No Change needed-
Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)
Buff Scramble Bombers?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Onigiri
Buff Replicate Forces?
Yay- Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)
Increase AM regen?
Yay- Darvin3 Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- CallenExile Mindseye Onigiri
Increase maximum AM?
Yay- CallenExile Darvin3 Hrabandur Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon Onigiri
Increase Dunov EMP range?
Yay- CallenExile Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?
Yay- Mindseye CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Deceiver_0
Nay- Ryat Volt_Cruelerz Warlord Mike Swordsalmon Onigiri
Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon
Buff Phase out hull?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- Ryat Onigiri
No Change Needed-
DELIVERANCE ENGINE
Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)
Buff Deliverance engine-
Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Kitkun Greyfox2 anteachtaire Mow Mow Warlord Mike Hrabandur Arthanis
Nay- Howdidudothat
No buff needed- Qu4r Darvin3 CallenExile
EMPIRE TREE
As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?
Adjust Empire Tree-
Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 SwordSalmon JSW_Ballz Mindseye Agent of Kharma Ryat 52500 Mow Mow Fuzzy Logic EadTaes Warlord Mike Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile
FIGHTERS
Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions
Buff Fighters-
Increase armor/hp?
Yay- Mindseye Mow Mow Greyfox2 Qu4r Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Ryat Top Vasari Warlord Mike EadTaes Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma CallenExile CrazyElectron
MAPS
Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?
Magnetic Clouds-
Allow starbase deployment?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Hrabandur Juletron Howdidudothat Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r CrazyElectron
Nay- Ryat CallenExile EadTaes DesConnor -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician
Ice/Volcanic planets-
Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Ryat Darvin3 Juletron Mindseye Mow Mow EadTaes JSW_Ballz Howdidudothat Warlord Mike Kitkun Ovi_187 -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CrazyElectron
Nay- CallenExile DesConnor DirtySanchezz Hrabandur Agent of Kharma Qu4r
No Changes needed-
ORKULUS STARBASE
This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.
Nerf Orkulus-
Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)
Yay- Greyfox2 Raging Amish(3x) Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Cykur Howdidudothat Top Vasari Swordsalmon Ryat anteachtaire LordMechanoid JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike Agent of Kharma DesConnor DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Qu4r CallenExile
Other-
SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")
Yay- Mindseye Deceiver_0 Howdidudothat Top Vasari Cykur LordMechanoid Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CallenExile CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- JSW_Ballz DesConnor Qu4r
SCOUT FRIGATES
A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.
Nerf Scouts-
Decrease hp/shields?
Yay-
Nay- DirtySanchezz Cykur Arthanis
Decrease DPS?
Yay- DirtySanchezz Greyfox2 Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Cykur
Increase Cost/supply?
Yay- Mindseye Cykur Swordsalmon
Nay- DirtySanchezz Arthanis
No Nerf Needed- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma Sivcorp 52500 JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron
Balance Scouts-
Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Mow Mow Swordsalmon Darvin3 Ryat Greyfox2 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur Top Vasari LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat CallenExile
Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?
Yay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat Greyfox2 Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Wingflier Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat CallenExile 52500 LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician JSW_Ballz Cykur Greyfox2 Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?
Yay- Mow Mow Swordsalmon Howdidudothat Ryat Chaotic Magician 52500 JSW_Ballz Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- Wingflier DirtySanchezz Darvin3 CallenExile Cykur Greyfox2 LordMechanoid Kitkun
Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?
Yay- Mow Mow Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician Sivcorp Top Vasari Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid
No Balance Needed- Agent of Kharma EadTaes DesConnor
RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS
While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?
Buff Skirmishers-
Increase DPS? Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes DesConnor Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- LordMechanoid
Decrease Supply cost?
Yay- Raging Amish LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Resource cost?
Yay- 52500 Warlord Mike
Nay- Darvin3 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat DirtySanchezz Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid lbgsloan Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r Arthanis
Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp Runesia DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Ya I used it on a sb i sneaked thru past a heavily defended planet while he tried to repel me from attacking it.Then I jumped straight past it to my sb and started killin all his worlds.It was pretty effective.
Oi, I think you might have mixed some numbers up, N3rull. Anti-Module deals 25% to Light, 50% to Medium, 75% to Heavy, 100% to Cap and V.Heavy, and 200% to Module. 328 damage per bank, 9 second cooldown.
So Desint DPS vs Light is ~9.1, Medium is ~18.2, Heavy is ~27.3, Cap and V.Heavy is ~36.4, and against Module is ~72.9. (Before upgrades)
Orkies do dmg like starfish but they dont have the advantage of range. Even a fully upgraded Orky can have trouble cracking a defensive cluster with a fully upgraded TEC or Advent Starbase. It also kinda sucks that to fully upgrade HP and Weapons on the orky takes up 7 upgrade slots, leaving only 1 left for debris vortex or frontal shielding. Yeah Orkies are tough as nails, but are still easily overwhelmed by large fleets. One wouldnt dare send a fleet up against a fully upped TEC or Advent SB, and yet when you're fleet reaches a certain size, a Vasari SB even fully upped is not much of a threat, especially for fleets made primarily of LRFS. Maybe the illum nerf will change that dynamic a bit cuz in practice, massive illuminator fleets that quickly double in size with illusions have the easiest time taking down my fully upped Orkies, because the fake illuminators make losses negligible. Though I don't think the Orkulus needs much buffing at all, I do lean towards doing more damage to LRFs.
Pulse Guns to Composite would be nice.
This. THIS. A THOUSAND TIMES, THIS!!!
It does not matter if I take the per bank DPS or the full one. It doesn't matter if I divide it by 15 or by ∏e², it is the proportions between what an argonev/trancy does to what an orky does.
I still believe that an orky should not take 3 offensive + 4 defensive upgrades + all warfare reseach done to be a comparable threat to a half-developed transcencia.Orky does one thing and one thing only, and that is fighting. As it is, it does it worse than the two other SBs which have a ton of other applications. It also should be a structure buster but the total damage done to structures is only slightly higher than the total damage any other SB does (to that orky). It takes a fully developed Orky to challenge a half developed argo/transy ... that takes time and tons of resources better spent on bombers.Oh, and it deals very nice damage to carriers which it is never going to catch.
Right, sure. I can bet that this was only an effective mop up, because if you had the money and time to play around with phase stabilizers (labs, research and all that) and - lol - sneaked a starbase - lol! - past his defended world, then I suppose that guy was already done anyway. Either because you've already owned him and just found a visually-effective way to finish the job or because he was drunk.
Sneaked a starbase... lol.
Does anyone think it would be to much to ask to update RA and Insurgency for entrenchment. Maybe get an ogrov every now in then in the rebel forces, or maybe receive a migrator or ruiner once in while from RA. I know its not much of an issue, but I feel like those two abilities are kinda stuck in Vanilla sins.
I dunno if it's NECESSARY, per se, but I wouldn't mind the changes, to be sure. I'd consider it if the topic came up.
I thought all Orkulus disadvanatges to other space stations are justified by it's mobility.
The forces themselves might be a little stronger, but an ogrov would be too badass. A single ogrov can four-shot most structures. You'd find your backyard worlds cleaned before you finished your "what the f-word?".
actually I have seen ogrovs being used in Insurgency
Granted fake illums can decrease the amount of dps to real ones for lack of targeting with each individual weapon but SB can target stuff. It is easy to tell the difference between real and fake. The fakes only last 2 minutes out of 3 minutes anyways and in that minute every illum is real and receiving fire. The thing is though that half of the illums damage is in side beams(50% front and 25% for each side) and they dont use side beams when fighting a SB. Plus frontal shield decreases by 100% and 200% for its levels(presumeably half and quarter damage respectively). If you move half your fleet to the other side to avoid frontal shield then you have increased the orky's own dps by more banks firing. Personally I won't touch a orkulus with even 2 or 3 upgrades unless i have 40+ illums and a decent progen with guardians and thats with little to no supporting fleet along with it. It is bombers all the way or push through to another system. It doesn't need range although the range is decent because it can move. Ever try killing an orkulus with starfish? It doesn't work. It can just run them over and that buttload of resources you spent on an anti-structure fleet is just more hp for debris vortex. Ogrovs do ok but still it requires microing them out of range when the orky comes charging and you will still lose some ogrovs. Antistructure units are underwhelming anyways even after their cost was decreased.
[_]-Greyfox
I am quite sure that 2/2 frontal shields did not work 60duration-90cooldown before. I'm sure it was 60/120. Never mind, it's still 2 upgrade slots on a brick that takes 3 offense, 3 defense and debris vortex to be able to survive any serious battle. Error.
Decevier_0,
You gonna fire up the next version of this topic for 1.06? I would assume most of our suggestions would carry over since the new patch didnt change to many of our suggestions.
50 kodiaks is a lot more focused firepower and a lot more resources than a 3 defense orkulus. Should it be surprising to you that 3 upgrade SB should die to a 500 supply in just HC fleet that took a LOT more resources and time to build? 50 HC is what an orkulus killing fleet should consist of if you are going to do it conventionally rather than bombers. One would hope you would at least have subverters to stop them if the enemy has 50 kodiaks against you rather than bank on a half upgraded SB. Frontal shields would negate half figuratively from doing anything when active so it may not have any stored hit points but it can decrease the amount you receive which can mean a lot. 25 percent averaged out for level 1 is still a lot of damage intercepted. Could you imagine something having the equivalent of 80+ percent shield mitigation and tell me how much of a bitch that is to kill? Ohhh thats right....thats the orkulus with frontal shields.
I will probably start a new one, but not until after the next one is released. We need to take a good look at how the gameplay changes with the patch before we can draw any conclusions. But yeah, Im think some of the topics (particularly Cap ships) will carry over.
Grey- Your right starfish are garbage against Orkies, Ogrovs, not so much. Without frontal shield you can take down a fully upped Orky with 15-20 Ogrovs without losing too many of them. And if there are hoshis involved, well you probably wont lose any. And 40 illums supported by a progen is way easy to come by (in fact I see this kind of fleet in almost every game I play in MP). And with the progen and illusions losses would be minimal. Yes it is easy to tell the difference between real and fake, but you cant target ships individually with weapons banks. You tell the Orky to attack one ship, it still uses its other banks to fire on other ships, regardless of what ship they are (real or not). SO with illusions, much of the Orkies firepower can be neutralized, any where from 0% to 100% (more likely 50%+). The real bummer to me is that illusions are effected by all abilities (icluding shield restore and shield projections), they just dont do any damage. Its kinda like spawning a bunch of defense vessels out of nowhere for meat shielding. I know I use flak frequently against illuminators to absorb damage, but the damn illuminators can just freely double their numbers to take damage, minimal cost for a huge gain.
I've always though illusions were way OP for such a high HP/Shield unit. In small numbers its not that bad, but when do you ever see small numbers of illums in MP? And I know you'll say the fake ones are easy to spot, but where as Illuminators are not micro intensive at all, in order for another race to overcome the doubling of the fleets hp, you have to micro your pants off. That just seems horribly unfair to me. When you can take your fleet of 60 illums, and make 60 more ships from thin air that you don't care whether or not you lose (because theyre almost completely free), that just seems a bit on the OP side. Now I know theres really no good, easy way to fix it, but it tends to make any points for the illuminator invalid in my eyes. You know they say that Skirms and Enforcers lack of dmg for their cost is to balance their ability to reintegrate, but I see no balance in the illuminators stats for their illusion ability.
Back to my original point about Orkies vs Illuminators- At least the losses to fleets charging the Orky from Vasari or TEC will take losses that cost money, that have an impact on their fleet and their economy, but when illusions are absolutely free, and can have their shields restored, and a 3rd of the damage to them redirected, losses to illuminator fleets have very little impact on the fleet itself or the advent economy. 60 Ilums with illusions will shred an Orky (frontal shield or debris vortex or not), where as against a TRans or Argonev, you woulndt dare send them to destroy it. I might add that I dont believe fake illuminators leave debris for debris vortex to swallow. So im definitely for a buff to LRF damage on the orkies.
N3rull- OK well I get that the duration is different, but what exactly is the point of having 200% damage reduction? Does that possibly overcome abilities like designate target?
Also remember that when have 2/2 frontal shields and 4 def (so as to stop that kodi fleet from rotflmao wiping that orky), you can only put on measly 2 off upgrades AND THAT ORKY WILL DO 30% (!!) LESS DAMAGE TO THOSE KODIS THAN AN ARGONEV WITH 2 OFFENSIVE UPS.Bah, a transy would wipe that fleet. But that orky has no chances. Yay orky.
Idea: What if we increase Okulus upgrade slots to 10?
I likes this idea, along with the other suggestions mentioned.
i don't see that going over well. I think id rather have disintegrators do some significant splash damage on the third upgrade. They fire slow as hell anyway.
On another note, how did my post, being seven seconds AFTER Deciever's, come FIRST?
My GOD! I must have discovered the secret to time travel!
Microing counting for illusions is as easy as using the empire tree to target rather than directly clicking the unit. If you are not targeting ANY real illums with a SB thats your own fault for not targeting a real one(easily done with empire tree). Any damage to other units is not controllable to a good extent so that would in fact be damage wasted. I have went against an orky on repeated occasions with 40 illums and a progen and let me tell you it isn't that easy to kill especially if it has been sitting with the upgrades rather than getting them on the fly while being attacked. If you can catch it while being built then maybe you can very well kill one with that fleet depending on how much damage you get in while building. Shield restore helps but it doesn't help that much and if you dont have guardians to share some of the shield burden you are still going to lose a good amount of ships and you will run out of AM quick unless you are at a star.
A transcencia would die as quick as an orkulus given 3 defense upgrades. It certainly would not wipe it unless the advent had some guardians to repulse the kodiaks out of range. Without intervention you may get off 1 meteor in the time it has against 50 kodiaks but that would be it. Even with mass disorientation it would not be that much longer although it would prolong its life to maybe get off a 2nd meteor. If you want to allow for guardians then certainly subverters could be around to neutralize on the vasari side. With all that though you are raised to a 5 upgrade sb with fleet support which is a whole different ball of wax in either case.
Argonev is different completely because of the button. It can take out a large fleet with the sacrifice of the SB.
328/9=~36.4
Does that to all targets before damage type.
Tell me if I'm doing something stupid. Trig test fried my math brain.
What if we increase Orkulus (or even all starbases) upgrade slots to 10? It won't break balance, because UBER_combinations_of_more_then_8_upgrades_pwning_everything_and_screwing_balance don't exist. It is just more upgrades = higher cost = higher possible casualties when Space Station explodes - but increasing number of slots to 10 will solve all Orkulus problems.
Grey, your forgetting that Mass disorientation outranges kodiaks and illums alike, and cuts down on their fire rate significantly. I just wiped the floor with a fleet of illuminators with a Transcencia with 1 defensive upgrade, 1 mass disorient upgrade and 2 meteor upgrades. I hit disorient before the illums got in range and then pummeled them with 3 meteor storms, the third as they were running off. Annihilated more than half the fleet. Now in the previous patch, and orky wouldnt have stood a chance against a fleet of illuminators that size. But in THIS patch (1.05) I threw around the same amount of illums, supported by a progen, a halo, illusions and guardians at a fully upped Orky and barely made a dent in it. Ggranted I had to kill a baby transcenscia first, and was taking fire from, the survivng half of that earlier fleet, but I had my illums 2/3 the way fully upped and that Orky still raped me illusions and all. So far im liking the reduced power of illuminators, they are still tough as nails, but they dont just rip everything to shreds anymore.
Oh and 1 more thing on illusions, its only easy to FF real ships if theyre all together. Otherwise by simply clicking on the empire tree, you could end up sending your fleet after illuminators all over the place, and thats recipe for disaster. Either that or once you realize youve jsut queued your fleet to attack something on the other side of the well, you have to reque everything. Not to mention it tends to get hardere later in the game with the empire tree jumping up and down. Where as the illuminators owner must simply set and forget. (hopefully not so much anymore, I see the old side-beam roundabout coming back in this patch)
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