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NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

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Deceiver_0
Arthanis
Join Date 09/2009
+3
Reply #701 January 21, 2010 8:08:16 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

There should be something like:

Unit A > Unit B > Unit C > Unit A

and

Hight tier > Low tier

It is the most basic part of correct counters system...

 

 

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Deceiver_0
CoBBQ
Join Date 07/2004
+4
Reply #702 January 21, 2010 8:12:48 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Why HC should not be defeated by a Tier 0 unit?  The light frigates already have a 50% damage penalty to the HC and if there is decent strikecraft coverage, the HC will be the prime unit of choice as bombers will not reach it and the LRFs will die quickly under the combined barrage of HC and strikecraft.  However, the test may be much more different if the time limit was reduced to 15 mintes as the ship count will be 45 disciples to 16 Kodiaks.  While the odds were still 3 to 1, the Kodiak's tough armor plus shield mitigation may be of more help.

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Deceiver_0
Agent of Kharma
Join Date 02/2008
+31
Reply #703 January 21, 2010 9:30:36 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

If you count supply 90 disiples is 360 supply while 32 Kodiacs is only 160 supply. You HC where greatly outnumbered.

I guess that's my point.  You can't churn out HC fast enough in its present condition to counter what it is supposed to counter.  So either it should build faster, or it should be buffed (or other stuff nerfed against it).

Assessing balance isn't just looking at supply and cost.  You also have to consider build speed.

but in reality, few people actually use very many LF as they are the first things to die in a battle due to LRF.

Don't know if you are playing online or not, but either way, what you are saying is "old patch thinking."  There is lots of lf spam online, particularly advent disciple spam (no surpise there).  Listen, don't take my word for it, ask some of the other people posting here, like Deceiver, Darvin, etc.  I mean, I can't be the only guy seeing lots of disciple spam.

So really, what you demonstrated is you being outnumbered and the weakness of Hoshis to LF.

What I demonstrated is the most ideal situation you can get - the chance to build an eco and then churn out as many hc as you can, UNMOLESTED, within a 30 minute window.  If you can't churn out enough under those ideal conditions, you certainly aren't going to churn out enough in any real game situation.  What I demonstrated was a balance issue.

However, the test may be much more different if the time limit was reduced to 15 mintes as the ship count will be 45 disciples to 16 Kodiaks.  While the odds were still 3 to 1, the Kodiak's tough armor plus shield mitigation may be of more help.

Actually, I did the tests with an earlier window with poor results, and thought that an extended window would offer more time to possibly reach a "critical mass" of hc (if there is one), plus time to add armor and hull like everybody says.

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Deceiver_0
MindsEye
Join Date 05/2008
+7
Reply #704 January 21, 2010 10:22:39 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

32 kodiacs is 320 fleet supply.

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Deceiver_0
EadTaes
Join Date 03/2008
+25
Reply #705 January 21, 2010 11:44:53 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Err yeah. Sorry calculating mentaly in my mind at 530am made me belive Kodiacs had 5 supply lol.

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Deceiver_0
-Ue_Carbon
Join Date 07/2008
+117
Reply #706 January 21, 2010 12:28:56 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

No replay needed - try it yourself and report your results.

 

LOL, Why when you did all the hard work I only wanted to see the actuall number of units, how each of you did production, and the actual battle.

 

I actually dont mind HC not doing so well against LF. LF are anti-heavy I think anyhow. Besides we know a HC can take 2-3 LF. Now I know you know this and it wasnt part of your test but if you had a resonable number of LRF, any ammount of LF would be null in time. Allowing your HC to last long and do their thing.

 

If we reduce damage taken by HC from LRF and/or increase damage done to LRF from HC you can get a soft balance triangle. NOT Including Fighters/Bombers...We know they are effective but require a whole new fleet formula due to adding carriers and flak.

 

Quick question again...has anyone made a quick mod and with our proposed changes to see how they work out? Just changing the damage modifers does make a difference.

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Deceiver_0
Agent of Kharma
Join Date 02/2008
+31
Reply #707 January 21, 2010 7:56:35 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Hight tier > Low tier

It is the most basic part of correct counters system...

This has always been one of the more difficult, counterintuitive, weird aspects of the game.  It should be (in general) High tier > Low Tier.  This game is backwards, Low tier > High tier.

Examples:

scouts > lrf
lf > flak
lf > carrier cruisers
lf > other cruisers
carriers (bombers) > hc

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Deceiver_0
Volt_Cruelerz
Join Date 06/2008
+115
Reply #708 January 21, 2010 8:35:08 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Honestly, when I first started playing the game (and thus before getting on the forum) I used LF quite frequently as the primary damage dealers of my fleet and used LRF very little which of course made beating the AI far harder as I was trying to beat it at its own game.  However, I also assumed that HC's were LF's big brother that should replace them late game.  This idea I believe ought to still stand.  HC IMO must be better than equal FC amounts of LF.  Sure, LF are anti-heavy, so they should put up a fight, but HC's are composite.  Which is basically anti-all...  For this reason, I believe that aside from abilities, HC should limit LF usage late game.

This idea is what generated the Defense Cruiser in my mod.  Flak Frigates are still viable due to their abilities, but the majority of AVL and AL damage is done by the DC.  I personally like this system.  This is what I think should happen:

> greater than by a good margin
-> slaughter
) greater than by a slight margin

HC>Scout
HC>LRF
HC )LF
HC->Support
HC->Carrier
HC )Capital 

LF>Support
LF>Carriers
LF )Scout

LRF>LF
LRF )Support
LRF )Carrier

 

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
Join Date 12/2008
+42
Reply #709 January 21, 2010 9:20:20 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Then again:

lrfs>lfs
Carriers (fighters)>lrfs
Hc>lrfs (erm at least its supposed to be, and in most cases is, save the illum)
flak>scouts

So its forwards and backwards. Which is one of the reasons its so complex.

Also I did your test Kharma, as far as how many kodies I can produce in 30 minutes vs how many disciples. Kodiaks=77, Disciples= 243. I have seen disciple spam a bit lately, though usually LRM spam will smack it down with little trouble. I am curious, however, about Disciple build speed as compared to Cobalts. It seems to me that disciple build speed is disproportionate to what it should be in relation to the Cobalt (which most can agree is middle of the road, just like TEC scouts). Though Im not really sure. Eitherway, against disciple spam you can do LF spam back or Lrf spam. Teching too high right off the bat will not work because of the costs (despite whatever econ youve built, if your opponent has a similar one, hes going to win with numbers). My hunch is if I did the same test but with Javs, I could produce an amount of them that would certainly annihilate 243 disciples. And that same number of javs would probably have trouble with 77 kodiaks. Ergo climbing the tech ladder. The thing about HCs I dont want to see is everyone rushing for HCs. The game has some built in deterrents for tech rushing that make it harder (not impossible), and I fear that buffing HCs too much will make those deterrents less effective. I don't know, Im a little on the fence about helping out HCs. On the one hand, I want to see lrf spam go away more, on the other I dont want to see HC rushing. Anyways, Ill put up a vote on reducing lrf damage to v.hvy armor and maybe cap ship armor. It could use some reduction, but personally I dont think it needs to be more than 10%. Like I said much earlier I think against cap armor the dmg types should be penalized as follows - antiheavy(lfs)-50% antimedium(lrfs):66% composite(HCs):75%. As for Anti medium vs V.heavy armor. Maybe reduce it to 66% or increase composite damage to light armor to 133%.

 

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Deceiver_0
MindsEye
Join Date 05/2008
+7
Reply #710 January 21, 2010 11:21:46 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I still think increasing bomber damage vs lrf would be a good idea.It would make carriers more usable and fullfill their role as anti lrf better.It would also force fleet diversification.Only other ship that uses light armor is scout?Right now bomber does 50% to lrf.75-100 would prolly do it.It would not change any other relationships of other ships.

If I was to buff hc I would proll give lf and lrf a 5% nerf damagewise to them.They dont need much.Bombers handle them quite nicely.

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Deceiver_0
Arthanis
Join Date 09/2009
+3
Reply #711 January 22, 2010 3:38:08 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

IMO both fighters AND bombers should be effective counter to LRF.

Caps and HCs should have no problems with countering them too.

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Deceiver_0
Cykur
Join Date 03/2003
+48
Reply #712 January 22, 2010 3:54:39 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Bombers should NOT be more effective at killing LRF.  I have already noticed a late game trend where fighters stop getting built because massed bombers can alpha strike large targets before fighters can counter them.  While I don't expect this to change, there has to be some incentive to make fighters.

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Deceiver_0
Agent of Kharma
Join Date 02/2008
+31
Reply #713 January 22, 2010 4:12:54 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Also I did your test Kharma, as far as how many kodies I can produce in 30 minutes vs how many disciples. Kodiaks=77, Disciples= 243.

Did you carry the test through to see which one would win in a fight?

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Deceiver_0
Agent of Kharma
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #714 January 22, 2010 4:14:54 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I have already noticed a late game trend where fighters stop getting built because massed bombers can alpha strike large targets before fighters can counter them.

My main SB at strategic choke got alpha struck the other day in 1v1 vs. tec.  It was a good game.  I had subverters and other toys

You back and playing now?

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Deceiver_0
Cykur
Join Date 03/2003
+48
Reply #715 January 22, 2010 4:47:00 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

My main SB at strategic choke got alpha struck the other day in 1v1 vs. tec. It was a good game. I had subverters and other toys

You back and playing now?

No, I log in every couple weeks to check the forums.

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Deceiver_0
Arthanis
Join Date 09/2009
+3
Reply #716 January 22, 2010 8:25:13 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Proposed Capship changes (I made some updates, including removing supportcaps 5 squadrons):


Global changes:

- Damage taken by Caps from ANTI-MEDIUM (LRF) reduced to 50% (from 75%)
- Damage taken by Caps from ANTI-HEAVY (LF) increased to 75% (from 50%)

- CAPITAL damage vs LIGHT ARMOR (LRF) increased to 100% (from 75%)

- Shield regeneration rate on all caps increased to 4/sec (from 3/sec)
- Hull repair rate on all caps increased to 2/sec (from 1.5/sec)



Capital Battleships:

Kol Battleship:
- Health increased to 3300 (+300, from 3000)
- Shields increased to 1450 (+200, from 1250)
- Beam DPS increased to 14.0 (from 9.0)
- Laser DPS increased to 13.25 (from 8.25)
- Armor increased to 6 (from 5)
- Max number of strikecrafts increased to 3 (from 2)
- Ship start with 1 SC squadron, additional squadrons at lvl5 and lvl10
- Railguns: Antimatter cost decreased to 30 (from 75)
- Railguns: Cooldown increased to 12 (from 6)
- Flak Burst: Antimatter cost reduced to 50 (from 100)

Radiance Battleship:
- Health increased to 2400 (+200, from 2200)
- Shields increased to 2050 (+300, from 1750)
- Beam DPS increased to 20.0 (from 15.0)
- Plasma DPS increased to 15.0 (from 10.0)
- Armor increased to 5.5 (from 4.5)
- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 2)
- Ship start with 1 SC squadron, additional squadrons at lvl5 and lvl10
- Animosity: affected ships now have 5%/10%/15% accuracy reduction (effective 5%/10%/15% damage reduction)

Kortul Devastator:
- Health increased to 2900 (+250, from 2650)
- Shields increased to 1675 (+250, from 1425)
- Wave DPS increased to 17.0 (from 12.0)
- Phase Missiles DPS increased to 10.8 (from 5.8)
- Armor increased to 6 (from 5)
- Max number of Squadrons increased to 3 (from 2)
- Ship start with 1 SC squadron, additional squadrons at lvl5 and lvl10
- Disruptive Strikes: Triggering chance increased to 33% (from 25%)
- Disruptive Strikes: Abilities cooldown increase increased to 25%/50%/75% (from 17%/33%/50%)
- Jam Weapons: Affected strikecrafts get 2 damage/second in addition to already existing effects





Capital Support:

Dunov Battlecruiser:
- Health increased to 3000 (+200, from 2800)
- Shields increased to 1225 (+100, from 1125)
- Autocannons DPS increased to 11.0 (from 6.0)
- Missile DPS increased to 11.0 (from 6.0)
- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)
- Magnetize: Antimatter cost decreased to 50 (from 80)
- EMP Charge: Now act as interrupt
- EMP Charge: Now disable weapons for 4/6/8 seconds

Rapture Battlecruiser:
- Health increased to 2200 (+100, from 2100)
- Shields increased to 1825 (+200, from 1625)
- Laser DPS increased to 16.0 (from 11.0)
- Beam DPS increased to 14.0 (from 9.0)
- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)
- Vertigo: Range increased to 6000 (from 4500)
- Vertigo: Area Radius increased to 2500/3000/3500 (from 2000/2500/3000)
- Domination: Antimatter Cost reduced to 75 (from 150)

Antorak Marauder:
- Health increased to 2675 (+150, from 2525)
- Shields increased to 1375 (+150, from 1225)
- Pulse Beam DPS increased to 17.0 (from 12.0)
- Phase Missiles DPS increased to 15.0 (from 10.0)
- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)
- Distort Gravity: Gravity well range to Phase Jump reduction increased to 15%/30%/45% (from 8%/16%/24%)
- Subversion: Now reduces planet income and resources production by 10%/15%/20% in addition to already existing effects






Capital Planet Killer:

Marza Dreadnauth:
- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 1)
- Ship start with 1 SC squadron, additional squadrons at lvl5 and lvl10
- Incendiady Shells: damage rate increased to 6/9/12 (from 3/4.5/6)

Revelation Battlecruiser:
- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 2)
- Ship start with 1 SC squadron, additional squadrons at lvl5 and lvl10
- Guidance: Antimatter cost reduced to 35 (from 75)
- Guidance: cooldown time reduced to 10 (from 20)

Vulkoras Desolator:
- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 1)
- Ship start with 1 SC squadron, additional squadrons at lvl5 and lvl10
- Phase Missiles Swarm: Antimatter cost reduced to 60 (from 90)




Capital Carrier:

Sova Carrier:
- Heavy Strikecraft: damage buff increased to 15%/30%/45% (from 12%/24%/36%)
- Heavy Strikecraft: armor buff increased to 4/5/6 (from 2/3.5/5)
- Ship start with 2 SC squadrons, additional squadrons at lvl2, lvl3, lvl4, lvl6, lvl8 and lvl10

Halycon Carrier:
- Telekinetic Push: Cooldown increased to 20 (from 10)
- Anima Tempest: Cooldown reduced to 90 (from 180)
- Ship start with 2 SC squadrons, additional squadrons at lvl2, lvl3, lvl4, lvl6, lvl8 and lvl10


Skinatra Carrier:
- Scramble Bombers: Antimatter cost reduced to 40/30/20 (from 50/40/30)
- Scramble Bombers: Spawned bombers get 25% increased chance to dodge for 120s
- Microphasing Aura: Radius increased to 12000 (from 8000)
- Replicate Forces: Create 8 frigates or 4 cruisers (instead of 3 frigates or 3 cruisers)
- Ship start with 2 SC squadrons, additional squadrons at lvl2, lvl3, lvl4, lvl6, lvl8 and lvl10





Capital Colony Ship:

Akkan Battleruiser:
- Targeting Uplink: Now give 5%/10%/15% DPS increase in addition to already existing bonuses


Jarrasul Evacuator:
- Colonize: Now add 100% population grow increasese for 240/480/720s in addition to already existing bonuses

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Deceiver_0
MindsEye
Join Date 05/2008
+7
Reply #717 January 22, 2010 10:06:14 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Cykur you think carrier to lrf is fine the way it is?Alpha strikes happen with any unit.100 lrf will snipe any capship before any amount of sc or any other ship can kill them.Same for bombers,hc,and to a degree lf and fighters(targets they have good damage against).I would think if bombers are more useful then you will have to see more fighters.Its not like you will alpha strike a massive ball of lrf at once anyway.Noone wants to buff fighters(except me) and this is one way for carriers to fulfill their role as anti lrf without changing lrf themselves.

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
Join Date 12/2008
+42
Reply #718 January 22, 2010 12:30:20 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Did you carry the test through to see which one would win in a fight?
 

No, because I can't really fight myself. I'm relatively certain that if no other ships were produced, the disciples would win, however, if both races continued at full production speed, I think the TEC would eventually come out ontop because the losses on the Advent side would start becoming too much too fast to keep up with. With the planets and economies I built, I was producing 7-8 Kodiaks at a time and around 10 disciples at a time.

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Deceiver_0
-Ue_Carbon
Join Date 07/2008
+117
Reply #719 January 22, 2010 12:36:11 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Just in case you have not seen:

 

Quoting Blair Fraser,
reply 32

We actually have a fairly large patch for both original Sins and Entrenchment coming soon. Keep in mind the game is almost two years old and most games aren't patched past the first month after release if at all

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Deceiver_0
Arthanis
Join Date 09/2009
+3
Reply #720 January 22, 2010 12:49:51 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Good game companies like blizzard are supporting their games for years - and every game they release become bestseller. Bad game companies like EA are releasing unfinished games and are canceling all support after few patches fixing the most critical stuff only - and EA had huge financial problems this year... Keeping game support for years is better option for both players and game companies. Of course it cost $$$, but happy players will reward company by buying sequels/addons/new games.

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Deceiver_0
Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
+177
Reply #721 January 22, 2010 2:50:19 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Where is that post, Carbon?  I can't find it anywhere.  It is good news.

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Deceiver_0
Greyfox2
Join Date 01/2009
+14
Reply #722 January 22, 2010 3:05:40 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

It is under the technical section under JJ's illum bug thread.  I must say that Ironclad has supported their game a lot longer than most out there do.  They mention that they are changing scouts in that thread too which I say is great news depending on the direction they take with it. 

 

[_]-Greyfox

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
Join Date 12/2008
+42
Reply #723 January 22, 2010 6:16:52 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

 They mention that they are changing scouts in that thread too which I say is great news depending on the direction they take with it.

Hopefully this thread will help point the Devs in the right direction, and since they took a long hard look at the last one, Im feeling pretty confident they'll get it right.

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Twilight_Storm
Join Date 07/2009
+92
Reply #724 January 27, 2010 12:17:36 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Anyone know the date of that patch?  Can't wait till an advent ship can be seen in one of my games again...  might even play em again for a while...

-Exile

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Volt_Cruelerz
Join Date 06/2008
+115
Reply #725 January 27, 2010 7:18:04 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Darvin estimated it at 5 weeks a few days ago based on the previous turn-around between announcement and release of the patch, so probably some time near the end of February...

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