Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!
This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.
BUGS
Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:
- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously
- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously
- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots
- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.
- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.
- Random Map Bugs:
- Single Phase lane starts
- No connected Asteroids
- Overlapping Gravity Wells
- Backwards Dunov Icon
- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)
- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock
- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul
- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.
- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING
- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).
CAPITAL SHIPS
This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.
Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)
Increase hp/shields/armor?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay-
Increase DPS?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon CallenExile Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Onigiri
Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Hrabandur Onigiri
Re-work Animosity?
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Hrabandur Onigiri
No Change needed- CoBBQ
Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)
Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- CallenExile MindsEye
No Change needed-
Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)
Buff Scramble Bombers?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Onigiri
Buff Replicate Forces?
Yay- Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)
Increase AM regen?
Yay- Darvin3 Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- CallenExile Mindseye Onigiri
Increase maximum AM?
Yay- CallenExile Darvin3 Hrabandur Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon Onigiri
Increase Dunov EMP range?
Yay- CallenExile Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?
Yay- Mindseye CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Deceiver_0
Nay- Ryat Volt_Cruelerz Warlord Mike Swordsalmon Onigiri
Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon
Buff Phase out hull?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- Ryat Onigiri
No Change Needed-
DELIVERANCE ENGINE
Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)
Buff Deliverance engine-
Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Kitkun Greyfox2 anteachtaire Mow Mow Warlord Mike Hrabandur Arthanis
Nay- Howdidudothat
No buff needed- Qu4r Darvin3 CallenExile
EMPIRE TREE
As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?
Adjust Empire Tree-
Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 SwordSalmon JSW_Ballz Mindseye Agent of Kharma Ryat 52500 Mow Mow Fuzzy Logic EadTaes Warlord Mike Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile
FIGHTERS
Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions
Buff Fighters-
Increase armor/hp?
Yay- Mindseye Mow Mow Greyfox2 Qu4r Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Ryat Top Vasari Warlord Mike EadTaes Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma CallenExile CrazyElectron
MAPS
Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?
Magnetic Clouds-
Allow starbase deployment?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Hrabandur Juletron Howdidudothat Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r CrazyElectron
Nay- Ryat CallenExile EadTaes DesConnor -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician
Ice/Volcanic planets-
Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Ryat Darvin3 Juletron Mindseye Mow Mow EadTaes JSW_Ballz Howdidudothat Warlord Mike Kitkun Ovi_187 -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CrazyElectron
Nay- CallenExile DesConnor DirtySanchezz Hrabandur Agent of Kharma Qu4r
No Changes needed-
ORKULUS STARBASE
This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.
Nerf Orkulus-
Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)
Yay- Greyfox2 Raging Amish(3x) Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Cykur Howdidudothat Top Vasari Swordsalmon Ryat anteachtaire LordMechanoid JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike Agent of Kharma DesConnor DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Qu4r CallenExile
Other-
SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")
Yay- Mindseye Deceiver_0 Howdidudothat Top Vasari Cykur LordMechanoid Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CallenExile CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- JSW_Ballz DesConnor Qu4r
SCOUT FRIGATES
A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.
Nerf Scouts-
Decrease hp/shields?
Yay-
Nay- DirtySanchezz Cykur Arthanis
Decrease DPS?
Yay- DirtySanchezz Greyfox2 Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Cykur
Increase Cost/supply?
Yay- Mindseye Cykur Swordsalmon
Nay- DirtySanchezz Arthanis
No Nerf Needed- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma Sivcorp 52500 JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron
Balance Scouts-
Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Mow Mow Swordsalmon Darvin3 Ryat Greyfox2 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur Top Vasari LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat CallenExile
Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?
Yay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat Greyfox2 Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Wingflier Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat CallenExile 52500 LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician JSW_Ballz Cykur Greyfox2 Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?
Yay- Mow Mow Swordsalmon Howdidudothat Ryat Chaotic Magician 52500 JSW_Ballz Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- Wingflier DirtySanchezz Darvin3 CallenExile Cykur Greyfox2 LordMechanoid Kitkun
Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?
Yay- Mow Mow Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician Sivcorp Top Vasari Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid
No Balance Needed- Agent of Kharma EadTaes DesConnor
RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS
While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?
Buff Skirmishers-
Increase DPS? Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes DesConnor Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- LordMechanoid
Decrease Supply cost?
Yay- Raging Amish LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Resource cost?
Yay- 52500 Warlord Mike
Nay- Darvin3 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat DirtySanchezz Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid lbgsloan Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r Arthanis
Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp Runesia DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Well the progen can heal 62 sield points a sec to itself and unlimited amount of ships around it.The dunov casts every 11 sec at 750 per cast.That equals 68 per sec.Its only for one ship.It should be able to heal itself like the progen and skirantra.
Got it - you're dividing the heal by the cooldown.
Another issue. Can someone comment on this?
I've played 2 games recently against lrm spammers. One was a vasari - a "pro-ish" type I see online quite a bit. I won that. The other was against a TEC - no winner, we just called it. I played TEC both games. At any rate, all both of them did was build nothing but lrm. The vasari built nothing but assailants all game. The TEC built nothing but lrm all game. To counter, I built nothing but heavy cruisers all game. Econ was even, fleet was even (I checked the stats). My point? HC was not effective. Sure, a single HC will beat a single lrm type unit. But those things can be built in huge swarms - they eventually get into the hundreds. You can dedicate yourself to pumping all the HC you want (I even built a TEC starbase to enhance production), but you can't keep up with a dedicated lrm spammer. And if your HC is ineffective because of the sheer tonnage of lrm, which you can't match in production, then what good is it?
My point is that HC needs a buff. If it is supposed to be a counter to lrm, it isn't so good because it is too easy to build the lrm in enough numbers to swarm the HC. HC needs a buff against lrm, or lrm needs a nerd against HC. Am I right or wrong?
(And please don't say "build scouts," because I didn't want to build scouts. HC is there for a reason, right? If it isn't there for a reason, then remove it. If it is there for a reason, then let me build it in peace without you saying "build scouts" or "build fighters").
Actually, i believe LRFs are the only frigate that actually does counter HC, as they are anti heavy armor, so you were doomed from the start there. Shoulda built fighters, scouts, or anything but LF or HC. HC beat LRF 1 on 1 because HC have so much shields/hull/armor, and LRF are relatively weak defensively. HC will counter pretty much anything else, but the LRF are there to keep it in its place as a part of a BALANCED FLEET. <----------(Hint)
-Exile
Side note, i just noticed something up top about a backwards dunoc icon??? What is that? I haven't noticed this in-game...
Build Flak. Really, late-game flak works the best against LRFs. They're cheap, have high durability, and decent anti-light multipliers. I've used massed flak against LRFs, and it works extremely well. The only problem is against Illums, but that'll be fixed next patch anyways.
Of course, HCs aren't very effective because of their cost. The actual cost to build a unit is fine, but the upgrades are very expensive. I'd almost agree a buff would be nice, but then we'd have Kodiak swarms by the half-hour mark.
Sigh. I meant to say DUNOV, sorry. Again, what do you mean about a backwards icon?
Nope. LRF does anti-medium. HC is a counter to LRF if you look at damage types and armor. But I don't think it's such a counter when you factor in supply cost, time it takes to tech it and build it and churn it out, yadda yadda. Someone can just swarm you with the inferior unit that is actually countered by the thing you teched and are trying to build.
Ya, I've done that. Doesn't work so well with vasari, but tec and advent flak is good. But I didn't want to build flak. I wanted to build HC. I have been told by everyone and their mother since the game released that HC is one of the counters to lrm. If that is true, then why shouldn't I have built that? You might say "because as you noted, it doesn't work that well." Thus my question... does it need a buff?
Well we already have swarms of lrf before that.
I don't want it OP, I just want it to do its job. If it is supposed to be a counter to lrf, then make it a counter to lrf. That's all I want. It doesn't stand up so well to mass disciples either.
LRF Mean "long range", not "all range". Why LRF are supereffective vs near everything at all distances?
Agent- HC spam never works against LRF spam because, like you said, you cant produce them fast enough to keep up. However that does not mean they aren't a counter to LRF. First off, your opponent got a head start on you with units due to LRFs lower tier, that already puts you behind on production. So going flat out HC isnt going to work unless you have a superior economy. So instead you need to invest in a few other ship types and upgrades to make them tougher. AS TEC you should definitely invest in Hoshis to go along with your HC (or even a flak swarm), mainly because HC are expensive to replace, and Hoshis will really help keep them alive. Secondly you should invest in armor and health upgrades for them, again to help keep them alive. Unupgraded, unsupported HC are not difficult to defeat, upgraded, supported HC are something else entirely. Seriously though HC thrive in a balanced fleet, use hoshis, fighters and flak with them and you should be able to topple any only lrm fleet.
Exile- Someone pointed out to me that the Dunovs is the only Icon facing the opposite direction in the build menu. Hence, backwards icon. I don;t really consider it much of a bug, but it bothers some people, so I put it up there. MAybe they'll fix it, maybe they wont, but personally I could care less either way.
IMO there should exist something like "chain of counters":
Flak > Fighters, Bombers, Scouts
Flak = LRF at close distance (cost-to-cost equal vs each other)
LF = Capital (cost-to-cost equal vs each other)
LF > LRF at close distance, Scout, Flak
HC > Capitals, LRF, Flak, Scout
LRF at long disance > LF, Flak, Capital
Scout > LRF
Capital > LRF at close distance, Flak, Scout
Fighter > Bomber, LRF, Scout
Bomber > Capital, HC, LF, LRF
Example:
Player 1 build LRF
Player 2 build LF and manage them to engage P1 LRF at close range
Player 1 build HC and put them between LRF and enemy LF
Player 2 build bombers and engage enemy HC, Then LRF
Player 1 build fighters to kill enemy bombers
Player 2 build Flak to kill fighters to save bombers
Player 1 Increase number of LRF to kill Flak before they kill fighters
etc. etc. Purpose is simple - to stop one-two units spam able to counter everything.
BTW. Capitals natural counters will be limited to bombers and HC. LF are able to engage capitals, but with limited effectiveness (they can buy some time but teching to bombers/HC is far better option then massing LF). LRF are able to hit Capitals from safe range only (you need meatshield like massed LF).
^That is example showing how counters system should IMO work.
What if bombers got buffed against lrf?Fleets would forced to be more diverse.Flak for fighters and fighters for bombers.Would make pure lrf spamming much more difficult.
Fighters, Bombers and LRF are already extremely viable
Instead of buffing bombers vs LRF, underused units like HC and LF should be improved.
And caps are too vulnerable to LRF. IMO effective counters to caps should be limited to Bombers, HCs and other caps. LRF should die to caps (especially to battlecruisers).
Well, blair said that the Illum bug will be fixed which will clear up some of this. In the mean time, I have suggested researchables that improve the combat ability of capitals to aid them later game. If you made a couple of them apply to HC's, then that would help them kill LRF.
Seeing as how that is a pipe dream, Perhaps you should buff AVH or Composite damage types against light targets. HC's shouldn't be able to be spammed, they are a front line meat shield. LRF's are the primary damage dealers, but 1 to 1 (in FC/cost) I think that HC's should win. So basically 3 LRF>1 HC>2 LRF. That might help and might help prevent abuse of both LRF and HC's. I don't know.. Just spitting out ideas.
@Arthanis: While I did once agree with you that their damage should fall off at short range, I eventually stopped arguing. Whether you want to believe it or not, LRF are the primary damage dealers of any fleet. Here are the roles assigned to each ship:
Scouts: counter LRF
LF: counter support and carriers, early game rush assistance
LRF: primary damage dealing
Flak: counter SC
Carriers: spawn SC
Fighters: counter bombers and LRF
Bombers: counter heavy targets
Support: support the fleet
HC: secondary damage dealing, primary cannon fodder
Capitals: early game primary damage dealing, late game support
I definitely prefer paper-rock-scissor system then LRF as "main damage dealers" (which mean counterng near everything) and rest of units working as enigmatic "support" (which mean "not really useful but you can build some to surprise enemy").
I'm ok with LRF being main damage dealers, but there is one question: where are LRF disadvanatges?
In many RTS games artillery units can work as "main damage dealers" too, but they have significant disadvanatges:
- very slow speed
- high tier
- difficulty in massing
- inaccurancy
- low armor
etc. etc.
LRF don't have ANY natural disadvanatge of Artillery units.
It is source of many balance problems:
- Caps are underused
- LRF don't have natural hardcounter
- HC are underused
- LF are underused
- Massing LRF +AntiSC support > balanced fleed using multiple ship types (in many situations)
In simple words: Add one SC slot to each LRF and you don't need to build anything except LRF...
Volt- Let me explain something about the Health and shield upgrades. They're based on a percentage, which means that Units with Higher base health and higher base shields (like capital ships and heavy cruisers) benefit more than units with lower hp/shields. A 30% increase means that a ship with a base health of say 1050 gains 315 hp, where as something with say 560hp only gains 168. This is where your researchable upgrades are. A cap ship with a base of 3000hp would gain 900 extra hp. You said earlier that research in weapons cancels out the health, I disagree because, as its also based on a percentage, it increases 30% of a much much smaller number (ie. 22x1.3=28.6 gain of 6.6 dmg). With that there are also more techs devoted to increasing the life of your units than increasing their firepower- Upgrades in shields, Armor and health stack on all of your units, while weapons upgrades like beams, lasers and plasma do not stack, they only give an effective 30% increase to some of your units (all if you research all of them). So in summary, Health/Shields benefit larger vessels more and stack, higher base armored vessels benefit more from armor upgrades and weapons upgrades give a flat maximum 30% damage increase thats based on much smaller numbers.
Arthanis- AS much as you may like, fully altering the way lrfs do damage is not in the cards at this point. I understand your poitn, and your argument makes sense, but like I've said before, small changes are the way to go. Instituting your suggestion would open up a whole new can of worms when it comes to balance issues, and would no doubt put us further away from a good balance than before. LRF not having "disadvantages of artillery units" is not what is causing balance issues because it is not their range that is the issue. In this game Lrfs are not traditional RTS artillery units. Lrfs range only becomes important when dealing with static defenses, otherwise their increased range is somewhat meaningless. The real issues with lrfs lie in their cost, health and/or damage, not in their range.
Whats wrong with alot of HC's? IMHO, those should be the bulk of any fleet. Even more so for end game fleets. Its a high tech ships. Besides Bombers would keep HC spammer at bay. If you increase by 10-20% the damage multiplier HC does to everything less than Heavy Armor. Or reduce like Ive said before LRF Damage mulitplier against heavy/Capital Armor. But not Composite. That way your LRF can still do decent damage vs structures but allow both Caps and HC to bear the brunt of a horde of LRF much better than they do now.
Anyone tried to change the multipliers yet? They make a difference. And its simple change.
Too many labs, too much research, too much money, and too much time, all to defeat the simple strat of "mash lrf button over and over again." Nonviable.
Fortunately, I'm not complaining that lrf doesn't have a counter (besides illums). I could go scouts, I could go flak as tec or advent, I could go fighters, I could build my own lrm. I have choices, and they work (except against illums). I just wonder what heavy cruisers are sitting there for.
Arthanis, actually lf is not underutilized at all (except for the skirmisher). Actually, if anything, I think some lf (like disciples) are too effective. I see "pros" building massive disciple-only fleets and rolling people. Funny thing is, if you go HC against such a fleet, you get annihilated.
Yes, both HC and caps should roll over LRFs
Composite is a damage type, not an armor type. You would have to change the anti-medium info to be lower against capital and very heavy armor, but then you reduced the effectiveness against buildings... I say buff HC's against LRF by 10-15% and nerf LRF against capitals 5-10%.
And Deceiver, I thought I said a while back that I agreed with you and that, but not entirely... Its just that:
LRF: 20+25%=25
Capital: 3000+25%=3750
In both cases, it takes 150 seconds to kill the capital (I just made up numbers since they are irrelevant). However, because of armor/shield/hull increases, it is on the side of defense. I wasn't saying that you completely neutralized it, just part of it, or potentially (though unlikely) all of it if you only upgraded one thing and your opponent had upgraded their weapon all the way to 30%. The size of the ship doesn't matter if they match you with offensive upgrades until you start buying them in different categories, then you are at an advantage.
I was just saying that I would like to see dedicated things that increase the armor/shields/hull of capitals to give them an extra boost to keep them ahead of LRF a little more effectively... Now, buffing heavies and slightly nerfing LRF might be enough, I don't know... Bombers ought to keep heavies in check, so I doubt that you would make them OP. The other option of course is a straight buff to stats (which the Enforcer needs anyways).
Just tested with a friend. He took advent, I took tec. We built the same eco. After that, he just started churning out disiples for about 30 minutes straight, and i just churned as many HC as I could. I also built what everybody recommends - hoshikos (roughly 25% of the numbers in my fleet), plus I upgraded hull and armor, and lastly attack as many times as I could before the 30 minute period was up. Then we clashed with what we had.
The mass disciples won. I say there is currently little, if any reason to tech up to late tier units.
Counters system don't work... and now we have another evidence.
I would like Replay first before I call foul.
No replay needed - try it yourself and report your results.
You could build 11 disciples for every 4 Kodiaks so that leaves 90 discples vs 32 Kodiaks at the end of 30 minutes. Even without the replay, I'm going to guess the hoshikos were rendered useless since 58 disciples were unmolested and free to kill support cruisers then your Kodiaks died as they were just pathetically out-numbered.
If you count supply 90 disiples is 360 supply while 32 Kodiacs is only 160 supply. You HC where greatly outnumbered.
Co is right. You were outnumbered 3 to 1 and the Disciples likely had more total health than the Kodiaks at that point. There is one problem. Another as said is that the Hoshis were completely unprotected. LF are great counters to support ships, but in reality, few people actually use very many LF as they are the first things to die in a battle due to LRF.
So really, what you demonstrated is you being outnumbered and the weakness of Hoshis to LF.
That said, I don't think this should be the result. HC's should not be beaten by a tier 0 frigate. So perhaps a general stat buff to them and a buff against light armor? Neither would be big, just enough to get the job done (though of course the Enforcer buff would be larger).
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