Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!
This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.
BUGS
Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:
- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously
- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously
- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots
- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.
- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.
- Random Map Bugs:
- Single Phase lane starts
- No connected Asteroids
- Overlapping Gravity Wells
- Backwards Dunov Icon
- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)
- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock
- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul
- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.
- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING
- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).
CAPITAL SHIPS
This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.
Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)
Increase hp/shields/armor?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay-
Increase DPS?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon CallenExile Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Onigiri
Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Hrabandur Onigiri
Re-work Animosity?
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Hrabandur Onigiri
No Change needed- CoBBQ
Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)
Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- CallenExile MindsEye
No Change needed-
Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)
Buff Scramble Bombers?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Onigiri
Buff Replicate Forces?
Yay- Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)
Increase AM regen?
Yay- Darvin3 Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- CallenExile Mindseye Onigiri
Increase maximum AM?
Yay- CallenExile Darvin3 Hrabandur Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon Onigiri
Increase Dunov EMP range?
Yay- CallenExile Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?
Yay- Mindseye CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Deceiver_0
Nay- Ryat Volt_Cruelerz Warlord Mike Swordsalmon Onigiri
Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon
Buff Phase out hull?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- Ryat Onigiri
No Change Needed-
DELIVERANCE ENGINE
Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)
Buff Deliverance engine-
Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Kitkun Greyfox2 anteachtaire Mow Mow Warlord Mike Hrabandur Arthanis
Nay- Howdidudothat
No buff needed- Qu4r Darvin3 CallenExile
EMPIRE TREE
As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?
Adjust Empire Tree-
Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 SwordSalmon JSW_Ballz Mindseye Agent of Kharma Ryat 52500 Mow Mow Fuzzy Logic EadTaes Warlord Mike Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile
FIGHTERS
Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions
Buff Fighters-
Increase armor/hp?
Yay- Mindseye Mow Mow Greyfox2 Qu4r Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Ryat Top Vasari Warlord Mike EadTaes Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma CallenExile CrazyElectron
MAPS
Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?
Magnetic Clouds-
Allow starbase deployment?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Hrabandur Juletron Howdidudothat Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r CrazyElectron
Nay- Ryat CallenExile EadTaes DesConnor -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician
Ice/Volcanic planets-
Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Ryat Darvin3 Juletron Mindseye Mow Mow EadTaes JSW_Ballz Howdidudothat Warlord Mike Kitkun Ovi_187 -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CrazyElectron
Nay- CallenExile DesConnor DirtySanchezz Hrabandur Agent of Kharma Qu4r
No Changes needed-
ORKULUS STARBASE
This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.
Nerf Orkulus-
Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)
Yay- Greyfox2 Raging Amish(3x) Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Cykur Howdidudothat Top Vasari Swordsalmon Ryat anteachtaire LordMechanoid JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike Agent of Kharma DesConnor DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Qu4r CallenExile
Other-
SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")
Yay- Mindseye Deceiver_0 Howdidudothat Top Vasari Cykur LordMechanoid Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CallenExile CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- JSW_Ballz DesConnor Qu4r
SCOUT FRIGATES
A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.
Nerf Scouts-
Decrease hp/shields?
Yay-
Nay- DirtySanchezz Cykur Arthanis
Decrease DPS?
Yay- DirtySanchezz Greyfox2 Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Cykur
Increase Cost/supply?
Yay- Mindseye Cykur Swordsalmon
Nay- DirtySanchezz Arthanis
No Nerf Needed- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma Sivcorp 52500 JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron
Balance Scouts-
Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Mow Mow Swordsalmon Darvin3 Ryat Greyfox2 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur Top Vasari LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat CallenExile
Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?
Yay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat Greyfox2 Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Wingflier Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat CallenExile 52500 LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician JSW_Ballz Cykur Greyfox2 Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?
Yay- Mow Mow Swordsalmon Howdidudothat Ryat Chaotic Magician 52500 JSW_Ballz Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- Wingflier DirtySanchezz Darvin3 CallenExile Cykur Greyfox2 LordMechanoid Kitkun
Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?
Yay- Mow Mow Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician Sivcorp Top Vasari Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid
No Balance Needed- Agent of Kharma EadTaes DesConnor
RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS
While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?
Buff Skirmishers-
Increase DPS? Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes DesConnor Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- LordMechanoid
Decrease Supply cost?
Yay- Raging Amish LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Resource cost?
Yay- 52500 Warlord Mike
Nay- Darvin3 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat DirtySanchezz Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid lbgsloan Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r Arthanis
Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp Runesia DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Yeah, that's why I said this:
But like I said, personally I don't have an issue with carrier caps overshadowing carrier cruisers. It can only go on so long before it isn't cost effective to keep spamming out caps, so then you have to buy cruisers. They might need an antimatter tweak though, or something else.
For me buffing the HP on caps is a deadend. Will only lead to more problems later.
What should be done is this:
Reduce anti-medium damage vs capital armor from 0.75 to 0.5Increase anti-heavy damage vs capital armor from 0.5 to 0.75
This reduces the omni-usefulness of LRFs and switches the main capital ship damage dealing early game from a unit that is hard to counter and excells at everything to a unit that is easier to counter but does not excell at everything. This fixes 2 prolems with 1 solution that has the least impact on objects outside of what was changed. An HP buff could lead to overpowered caps very quickly. This change might not sound like much but it makes a very big difference.
Caps are much harder to kill under this change and have a much more profond longevety on the battle field but are not overpowered there just fine.
So votes:
HP Buff: NOIncrease DPS: Maybe a bit. 10% or so all around.Gauss: Just to AM hungry. But now it's prety decent but consume to much AM.Animosity: Yes could use improving of the mechanics.
Egg Colonise: Yes could use extra constructors for a while.Scramble Bombers: Howmuch stronger you want it? seems fine to me they flood the skies with bombers now.Replicate forces: I've said ti before and will say it about the amount replicated should be dicted by the supply cost of the unit being replicated. Like so if you set the abilaty to replicate up to 50 supply points this would mean replicating either 10 cobalts or 5 kodiacs.
No changes to support caps.
Deliverance engine: NO
IMO none of frigates/cruisers should be hardcounter to caps. Natural counter to cap should be another cap, and frigates/cruisers should be able to souftcounter them only. Agai - Caps role should be improved, not nerfed.
I still think LRF should be far lest effective at close range... insted of being omni-counter to everything at rery range.
Anti-heay damage vs capital armor increase - again, IMO caps should not be hardcountered by anything. Meybe slight bufff.... but not huge jump from 50% to 75%.
Not if you can add in a few flak.Flak will suppress them along with your fighters to the point they cant outbuild you.The other thing is you are purely basing it from cap to cruiser.Where is your own cap?It would surely be in the fight as well.Altho I would like flak to ocunter fighters less and maybe bombers a bit more.
@Ead: I do like your idea for replicate forces. That seems to be a better use of it, and you still end with the result of it being quite good.
@Arthanis: But at the same time, LF's are also some of the easiest ships in the game to counter. Perhaps have it boosted to 65% against caps though... That might be good. That way capital rushes are weakened somewhat, but not made obsolete.
LRF just are currently omni-counters. I don't know.. Currently LRF are good and are not really countered by anything. Maybe the best thing would be to buff HC's anti-light by 15-25% and reducing the attack bonus of LRF by 10-15% against capitals and v-heavies.
Well the simple fact of changing teh damage tables from LRfs to LF from 0.75 to 0.5 and 0.5 to 0.75 means an automatic reduction in damage recived by caps for:
LFs have a lower DPS then LRFsTEC/Vasari LFs cost more supply points and more resoces then the LRFs, this will limit their numbers some.Advent LFs cause much lest dmg are not omni directinal and are quite frail so this balanced out them being cheaper to build and needing lest supply to feild.
On average the switch means a 10 to 15% damage reduction VS caps if you conver current LRFs spams to LFs of equal supply or equal cost.
You're still not getting it. As Greyfox says, capital ships have lots of awesome special abilities at their disposal and are much more versatile than specialized cruisers. This is what I've been saying all along: the specialized cruisers need to be the best at their specialized task because they have one and only one purpose, and if a general-purpose ship outperforms them they're out of a job. Right now, they're barely a match for the carrier caps, but with all the other benefits of capital ships your choice (as Greyfox says) is a no-brainer.
As for balance, this isn't just an issue at claustrophobic distances. You can still very effectively carrier rush over a distance of 5 or 6 gravity wells. Your target isn't the homeworld anymore, but rather just to pressure the enemy and lock him down. This is still early enough that capital carriers are the only real response to capital carriers. If anything, carrier cruisers are even worse here because in the larger scenario you need to do more jumping, which further reduces their already pressured antimatter reserves.
Beyond that, fine-tuned balance should be primarily driven by multiplayer. The singleplayer gamer can pretty much get away with doing anything against the AI. In Entrenchment, all you need to do is put up a starbase with repair bays and watch them send their fleets certain death... repeatedly. The needs of the singleplayer gamer are more in the realms of a more robust AI, not fine-tuned balance. It's very unlikely that the AI will even build multiple carrier caps, since it chooses randomly.
As for the types of games we play, there's largely no choice. The standard 5v5 random map is claustrophobic, but we don't have any other alternatives. The stock premades 5v5 maps are all unpopular, user-created premades never caught on, and the 5v5 multistar map is poorly designed (not to mention multistar games are unpopular in multiplayer for a variety of reasons).
I actually got it, I just think it's perfectly fine that the capship, which has lots of awesome abilities, blah blah, should outshine the cruiser, even one that is specialized for its task.
There are two competing philosophies here. One is that caps should be at the forefront, should outshine other units, and should be badass. They should be "special." The other is that cruisers and frigs should have the more prominent role, with caps more as backup. There is nothing wrong with either philosophy. Both work fine. It comes down to a matter of preference. My strong preference is for "caps rule." I think the devs had the gameplay mechanic backwards when they released the game. I think most players prefer the "caps rule" philosophy, although I'm sure some don't. Ironically enough, my playstyle does not yet match my gameplay mechanic preference. This is chiefly due to not being sure what the devs are up to next. I'm not changing playstyles to match my preference until I see what the next patch brings, if it ever comes.
They aren't out of a job if a capship outperforms them, because like I said, you can only build so many capships. At some point it becomes cost prohibitiive to keep building caps. Again, this is the two gameplay mechanic philosophies butting heads. The "caps should support, not outshine" philosophy is necessarily offended at the notion that a cap would ever outshine a specialized cruiser. I understand that, I guess, I'm just not on that side of the issue.
Yeah I agree it is a no-brainer early game, and I'm personally cool with it (this is not coming from a person who spams carrier caps - I don't). Later, however, I think it becomes more of a "brainer."
Let's presume this is true. Does the other guy have no recourse? The carrier rusher has to go all the way across the map, and fight on the other guy's turf. His econ must surely suffer since he isn't taking planets if he's rushing 5 or 6 grav wells. Where is the other guy's fleet or defenses? Where is his superior eco?
Listen, I actually hear ya. I really do. I have several posts on carrier rushes myself, asking how to beat them (something I haven't had a lot of success doing). But like I told Deceiver in another thread, there is usually a "finer point" hidden in my seemingly newbish posts asking for advice. In this case, one root of my problems has been an insistence on playing vasari even though I will get pummeled by Advent. Another problem is that I usually try to counter something without aping what my opponent does, or I try to do it creatively, not "to win."
At any rate, if some guy trucks a couple carrier caps across the map to attack one of your roids, I guess you might consider necessarily having carrier caps of your own to meet him, if defenses or other measures aren't enough. You might think that sucks (and hell, maybe it does, maybe I'm just wrong), but there was another time in the game where carriers had to be met with carriers. That was the "carrier spam" patch. I refused to meet carriers with carriers that patch, thus lost every game. But if that's what must be done this patch, I don't mind it so much, because it's capital ships.
Ya, might be.
Yup, I have to agree there.
I agree, but I think we are defining fine-tuned balance differently here. Scouts balanced against lrf, illums being OP, etc. - that's all fine-tuned balance, and I agree MP should drive that balance. But whether carrier caps are dominant on crowded MP rush maps isn't a fine-tuned balance, it is a game balance issue. MP shouldn't drive game balance (by the way, I am an exclusive MP player, no SP for me).
There actually is quite a bit of choice, it's just that MP ritalin "gogogogogogogo!" junkies will never exercise that choice. For instance, you can play smaller games (2v2, 3v3) on large or huge maps, which won't create a crowded rush scenario. Now, I'm not suggesting anyone would ever do that in a million years on MP, I'm just saying the choice is there.
Your points are valid, it just comes down to what gameplay mechanic one considers to be the better mechanic. I'm for the "caps rule" mechanic, but something in the back of my mind has been telling me from day one that the devs will roll it back. I do think that, to a certain extent at least, we can both have our cake and eat it. I think if other caps are buffed so that there is something to compete with carrier caps, you won't have as much of an issue, am I right? So we can both support buffs to other capships?
unfortunatly i dont like this either but i have countered a dual halocryn rush going egg and kortul and i took down both of his caps, THis person is considered to be quite skilled(im not going to say his name ) The problem is Carreir caps take down all other caps unless the other caps have support, which usually they dont. The best way to beat a Carrier cap rusher is to scout ahead and see what he is doing, if you see him coming get a couple of repairs at your HW and start buildint LRF dont wait for him to be on top of you before you start building.
the reason so many people are going for 2 and 3 caps now in this patch is because you have so many people who scout and LF rush and dual caps actually counter scout and LF quite well because scouts and LF kill caps slowly. as long as you dont lose your caps pointlessly dual caps are amazing at the start.
in the privious patch 95% of skilled people would start of by researching lrfs and spamming them, that is why dual caps would fail because you lose them too quickly. even though scouts still counterd lrf well not many people knew how to use them well (there is still not to many people who know how to use scouts well).
Really i like using mulitple caps it is more fun than spamming lrf which doesnt happen as much anymore (exept for advent because of illum bug) earlier i just finished a game where i went for a 3 cap start in MP and it worked amazingly because with good micro i used my caps to take out alot of their ships without losing my caps.
Carrier caps are annoying on the rush but the trick to beating them is to scout ahead and see them coming, if you are prepared no rush will be successful
_|~Uber
ps.. wow i rambled on mindlessly, i need to organize my thoughts better...
While it does seem that most players shout for super caps, I don't think its what the devs intended. I very much doubt that caps will get any more powerful than the carriers are now. I see the others getting buffed to their level, LRF getting a nerf, and then being done with this and moving on to Diplomacy.
At any rate, yes of course I support buffs to other capital ships. I honestly hate carriers. Both in real life and in games. I have never liked them. I really don't know why. Perhaps I just think that they are kinda cheap how they have disposable firepower. Idk, at any rate, I support buffs to the others.
@Volt- I like carries personally, because of the potential firepower projection (to me, a carrier is a tool to project a ships' destructive potential to further distances than it could on its own). But unfortunately in space warfare (fortunately actually, I like bigger ships because they can carry bigger guns and bigger guns=bigger explosions ) fighters make little to no sense (with it leaning toward no sense).
As for in Sins- buff the carrier cruisers. They should be on par with carrier caps, because they are specialized to do what they do. I don't really think they should outperform carrier caps, or at least by a small amount.
As for other caps getting increased SC- no. just no. Carrier caps are supposed to be capital SC support. You take that away when support caps get 5 squads at the end, and a carrier cap gets 8 (or 11). It's just too close.
I will vote on the other things later tonight.
If we're talking about adding SC to other Caps, i say add one to Battleships. Seriously. Supports get 3, and Battleships get 2? Equalize them at least. Battleships are Tank/DPS units afterall. Why should a support Ship be able to neautralize any of its power in a permamnant sense? Alternatively, nerf Supports down to 2 SC.
-Exile(\/)
IMO LRF should be very effectively countered by LF, HC and Caps at close range. On the other hand, they should be effective against them at long range. In simple words - they should work like artillery/archers from "ground" strategies. Refited idea:
- LRF get + 50% range
- LRF damage vs caps reduced from 75% to 50%
- LRF are 50% innacurate vs all targets at 33% of their range (eqivalent of 50% of their actual range) and below
Support caps are "support" only because of their name. Their dps/hull/shields are relatively weak, but their "support" abilities are relatively weak too (other "non-support" caps are usually better support to your fleet) - thats why suport caps should be significantly better in term of SC (i sugest increasing them to 5) and dpf/hull/sh. IMO turning them into something between BC and carrier will be steep into good direction.
BTW increasing number of SC to 3 on BC and PK is good idea imo.
Support cap ships are not carrier caps so they shouldn't get lots of SC imo.
This obviously means that support cap ships need to live up to their name by effectively supporting the fleet, not by changing them into something else again that has nothing to do with their name. After all they must be called SUPPORT cap ships for a reason.
ATM Support capships are named "support" for no reason:
- ALL capships are able to support fleet
- other capships are better in supporting fleet then "support" capships.
- because support capships also have relatively weak shields/dps/health they suck in other jobs too
NOBODY USE THEM FOR A REASON.
My idea is turning htem into support units in terms of many diferent minor skills making them vaible choice. Carriers will be still superior in terms of SC superiority, BCs will be still far more powerful in terms of pure DPS, but support capships will be finally useful. (read my proposed capships balance changes 2-3 pages ago).
NOTHING JUSTIFY SUPPORT CAPS BEING USELESS.
Who says their useless?
Who choose them as 1st cap?
Who build them as 2nd cap?
Who build them anyway outside sandbox-like games with friend?
Support caps ARE weakest caps class in this game...
Support caps are such as they are meant to support OTHER CAPS primarily, whilst also SECONDLY supporting the fleets with powerful abilities. At least that what I always thought Support Class was purposed for.
Agreed. Though I differ on your "fleet supports cap" stance. My thoughts on that are as follows. 1. You can have up to 16 capital ships (kinda cuts down on their individual uniqueness) 2. You can purchase levels up to level 4 (headstart for replacing destroyed ones) 3. With good eco, cap ships are relatively cheap (bout as much as 5-6 HC) for their power. I can totally understand the want for Caps to be the shining beacon, the star of the show, but the way the game is set up ATM I think leans more towards fleet support than supporting fleet. I also think that MP games put Caps in more of a "Star Role" because there are fewer of them due to the fact that the people doing the fighting generally have very limited economies (unable to support many caps), while the people who have great economies (and can support having many caps) are busy feeding the fighters, which I think makes the "melting Capship" problem more of an issue (as well as that stupid Illum bug). Where as in the less common MP games (uncramped versus games/FFAs) or in SP, I find myself having many more Caps than in rush maps and having an easier time replacing them.
I've also noticed more of the HUGE difference quick start makes in games, having played a few non-qs recently. Theres 2 things I've noticed that really change between QS and non QS. 1. The power of Vasari: They go from being the most powerful to the weakest with the push of a button. 2. Rushing is not a gamble: It used to be that if you rushed your opponent and failed, you were in big trouble. Now, not so much. My point is Unit balance and Game balance are two very different things and we should all make sure we're arguing the right points by taking those points out of the common context and placing them against other contexts. Just remember all the ways you CAN play the game, and not just the way you DO play the game.
Just saying.
But their support abilities are not good enough to justify all theair disadvanatges AND are significanlt weaker then non-support caps abilities... And what is the reason of building cap A to support cap B while you can just build second cap B and combination of 2 caps B is more rewarding then Cap A + Cap B...
What!!! Some of the support caps have the most powerufll advantages. People just don't realise it yet. And if caps gain a longer longevety on the battle field by doing the damage modification I propose between LFs and LRFs their roles becomes a lot more pivotal then now.
The place where the weakness of cap in general comes from is from the LRFs that are omni-counter to just about everything, cuting their damage vs cap and giving that damage to LFs will resolve in greta part if nto entirerly this problem. We have started seeing multiple cap strategie start to show up because people are goign scouts and LFs more often now. LRF spam remain the main tactic but it's not the only tactic no more.
Support caps are superpowerful units, 2 years after game release people just didn't noticed it (facepalm)
People notice what has bi bag effect. They don't notice subtul effects that have profound impacts unlest they are shown repeatedly. I know TEC and Advent support caps with Awesome under use abilaties or that are not used corectly. For Vasari the maurader is a bit lack luster in combat, but it's role if to moe your fleet around faster, and their second support cap is their carrier. But people see it mroe for it's combat role the support role.
Ya I agree. Sometimes people confuse these.
On another front, I do think EadTes and others have an interesting suggestion with nerfing the damage lrf do to caps.
Thats what I recommended to fix the problem to begin with., though not exactly to the degree Ead has it. And Arthanis, sorry dude but wtf are you smoking. Outside 4v4s and 5v5s I use support caps ALL THE TIME, to keep my lvl 6+ caps alive, and Im sure if you asked the SP players they would say the same thing. Hell on the rare occasions the 5v5s and 4v4s go long, you're going to see those support caps doing what they do best, supporting other caps. Yeah they are weaker than the other caps, but thats why theres some changes proposed above to give them a little extra oomph.
And personally I love the marauder for its mobility abilities. Its almost never my first cap because its not great in combat. But if I get the chance, Im going to get one so that I can get around PJIs without a problem, and then eventually be able to jump ships anywhere. I recently played a 2v2 where I was able to get a strong eco up before any fighting began. I got my Marauder (which was my 4th cap) up to level 6. There were 2 times during the game that the marauder saved my ass. Once I was on the oppposite side of the map tearing apart my opponents hw, when he and his ally cornered me, but I just stabilized phase space and jumped outta there, didnt lose a single ship. And another time during that game I wanted to level some caps up (I had 4 lvl4 kortuls) So I sent my marauder to the pirate base, stabilized phase space, and jumped my kortuls and fleet in. All the kortuls reached lvl 5 before my enemies figured out what I was doing and charged the pirate base, at which point I stabilized again and jumped outta there to safety. After having gone to the pirate base, all 4 of my kortuls reached lvl 6 during the battle that ensued a few minutes later, and I ravaged the enemy fleets with volatile nanites.
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