Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!
This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.
BUGS
Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:
- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously
- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously
- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots
- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.
- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.
- Random Map Bugs:
- Single Phase lane starts
- No connected Asteroids
- Overlapping Gravity Wells
- Backwards Dunov Icon
- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)
- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock
- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul
- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.
- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING
- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).
CAPITAL SHIPS
This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.
Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)
Increase hp/shields/armor?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay-
Increase DPS?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon CallenExile Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Onigiri
Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Hrabandur Onigiri
Re-work Animosity?
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Hrabandur Onigiri
No Change needed- CoBBQ
Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)
Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- CallenExile MindsEye
No Change needed-
Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)
Buff Scramble Bombers?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Onigiri
Buff Replicate Forces?
Yay- Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)
Increase AM regen?
Yay- Darvin3 Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- CallenExile Mindseye Onigiri
Increase maximum AM?
Yay- CallenExile Darvin3 Hrabandur Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon Onigiri
Increase Dunov EMP range?
Yay- CallenExile Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?
Yay- Mindseye CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Deceiver_0
Nay- Ryat Volt_Cruelerz Warlord Mike Swordsalmon Onigiri
Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon
Buff Phase out hull?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- Ryat Onigiri
No Change Needed-
DELIVERANCE ENGINE
Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)
Buff Deliverance engine-
Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Kitkun Greyfox2 anteachtaire Mow Mow Warlord Mike Hrabandur Arthanis
Nay- Howdidudothat
No buff needed- Qu4r Darvin3 CallenExile
EMPIRE TREE
As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?
Adjust Empire Tree-
Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 SwordSalmon JSW_Ballz Mindseye Agent of Kharma Ryat 52500 Mow Mow Fuzzy Logic EadTaes Warlord Mike Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile
FIGHTERS
Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions
Buff Fighters-
Increase armor/hp?
Yay- Mindseye Mow Mow Greyfox2 Qu4r Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Ryat Top Vasari Warlord Mike EadTaes Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma CallenExile CrazyElectron
MAPS
Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?
Magnetic Clouds-
Allow starbase deployment?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Hrabandur Juletron Howdidudothat Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r CrazyElectron
Nay- Ryat CallenExile EadTaes DesConnor -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician
Ice/Volcanic planets-
Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Ryat Darvin3 Juletron Mindseye Mow Mow EadTaes JSW_Ballz Howdidudothat Warlord Mike Kitkun Ovi_187 -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CrazyElectron
Nay- CallenExile DesConnor DirtySanchezz Hrabandur Agent of Kharma Qu4r
No Changes needed-
ORKULUS STARBASE
This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.
Nerf Orkulus-
Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)
Yay- Greyfox2 Raging Amish(3x) Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Cykur Howdidudothat Top Vasari Swordsalmon Ryat anteachtaire LordMechanoid JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike Agent of Kharma DesConnor DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Qu4r CallenExile
Other-
SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")
Yay- Mindseye Deceiver_0 Howdidudothat Top Vasari Cykur LordMechanoid Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CallenExile CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- JSW_Ballz DesConnor Qu4r
SCOUT FRIGATES
A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.
Nerf Scouts-
Decrease hp/shields?
Yay-
Nay- DirtySanchezz Cykur Arthanis
Decrease DPS?
Yay- DirtySanchezz Greyfox2 Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Cykur
Increase Cost/supply?
Yay- Mindseye Cykur Swordsalmon
Nay- DirtySanchezz Arthanis
No Nerf Needed- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma Sivcorp 52500 JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron
Balance Scouts-
Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Mow Mow Swordsalmon Darvin3 Ryat Greyfox2 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur Top Vasari LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat CallenExile
Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?
Yay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat Greyfox2 Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Wingflier Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat CallenExile 52500 LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician JSW_Ballz Cykur Greyfox2 Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?
Yay- Mow Mow Swordsalmon Howdidudothat Ryat Chaotic Magician 52500 JSW_Ballz Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- Wingflier DirtySanchezz Darvin3 CallenExile Cykur Greyfox2 LordMechanoid Kitkun
Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?
Yay- Mow Mow Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician Sivcorp Top Vasari Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid
No Balance Needed- Agent of Kharma EadTaes DesConnor
RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS
While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?
Buff Skirmishers-
Increase DPS? Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes DesConnor Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- LordMechanoid
Decrease Supply cost?
Yay- Raging Amish LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Resource cost?
Yay- 52500 Warlord Mike
Nay- Darvin3 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat DirtySanchezz Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid lbgsloan Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r Arthanis
Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp Runesia DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
If LRF are supossed to be counter to everything in game, there is no reason of balance discusion.
Anyway, what do you think of my idea?
The problem with your idea is that Illums are suppose to charge into the fray to be able to use all three beam attacks.
The problem are Ilums which are OP because they hve too many roles and are cost-effectively countering too many things. Choosing between safe attack range and 3 beam with reduced accuracy sounds fair, Advent have enough options to fill all holes.
No; LF are actually a soft counter to capital ships. For instance, the best counter to a double-Halcyon rush as Advent is a single-Halcyon rush with a swarm of disciples. Use TK push to suppress strike craft and the light frigates will actually kill (or at least force the retreat of) one of the Halcyons.
Heavies and structures are also soft counters to LF, since structures cannot move and heavies come very late and aren't actually that overwhelming (it's LRF that heavies mince).
Perhaps a way to solve the problem would be to buff the damage multiplier of antiverylight against light targets. That way Flak would do a better job at protecting caps as they would more easily counter LRF. I don't know if that would make bombers obsolete though... Idk, just throwing it out there...
OOOrrrr....reduce LRF damage multiplier vs Caps.
Proposed Capship changes:Capital Battleships:Kol Battleship:- Health increased to 3200 (from 3000)- Shields increased to 1400 (from 1250)- Beam DPS increased to 14.0 (from 9.0)- Laser DPS increased to 13.25 (from 8.25)- Armor increased to 6 (from 5)- Max number of strikecrafts increased to 3 (from 2)- Railguns: Antimatter cost decreased to 30 (from 75)- Railguns: Cooldown increased to 12 (from 6)Radiance Battleship:- Health increased to 2350 (from 2200)- Shields increased to 1950 (from 1750)- Beam DPS increased to 20.0 (from 15.0)- Plasma DPS increased to 15.0 (from 10.0)- Armor increased to 5.5 (from 4.5)- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 2)- Animosity: affected ships now have 5%/10%/15% accuracy reduction (effective 5%/10%/15% damage reduction)Kortul Devastator:- Health increased to 2800 (from 2650)- Shields increased to 1575 (from 1425)- Wave DPS increased to 17.0 (from 12.0)- Phase Missiles DPS increased to 10.8 (from 5.8)- Armor increased to 6 (from 5)- Max number of Squadrons increased to 3 (from 2)- Disruptive Strikes: Triggering chance increased to 33% (from 25%)- Disruptive Strikes: Abilities cooldown increase increased to 20%/40%/60% (from 17%/33%/50%)Capital Support:Dunov Battlecruiser:- Health increased to 3000 (from 2800)- Shields increased to 1275 (from 1125)- Autocannons DPS increased to 11.0 (from 6.0)- Missile DPS increased to 11.0 (from 6.0)- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)- Max number of squadrons increased to 5 (from 3)- Magnetize: Antimatter cost decreased to 50 (from 80)Rapture Battlecruiser:- Health increased to 2250 (from 2100)- Shields increased to 1825 (from 1625)- Laser DPS increased to 16.0 (from 11.0)- Beam DPS increased to 14.0 (from 9.0)- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)- Max number of squadrons increased to 5 (from 3)- Vertigo: Range increased to 6000 (from 4500)- Vertigo: Area Radius increased to 2500/3000/3500 (from 2000/2500/3000)- Domination: Antimatter Cost reduced to 75 (from 150)Antorak Marauder:- Health increased to 2675 (from 2525)- Shields increased to 1375 (from 1225)- Pulse Beam DPS increased to 17.0 (from 12.0)- Phase Missiles damage increased to 15.0 (from 10.0)- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)- Max number of squadrons increased to 5 (from 3)Capital Planet Killer:Marza Dreadnauth:- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 1)- Incendiady Shells: damage rate increased to 6/9/12 (from 3/4.5/6)Revelation Battlecruiser:- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 2)- Guidance: Antimatter cost reduced to 35 (from 75)- Guidance: cooldown time reduced to 10 (from 20)Vulkoras Desolator:- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 1)- Phase Missiles Swarm: Antimatter cost reduced to 60 (from 90)Capital Carrier:Sova Carrier:- Heavy Strikecraft: damage buff increased to 15%/30%/45% (from 12%/24%/36%)- Heavy Strikecraft: armor buff increased to 4/5/6 (from 2/3.5/5)Halycon Carrier:- Telekinetic Push: Cooldown increased to 20 (from 10)- Anima Tempest: Cooldown reduced to 90 (from 180)Skinatra Carrier:- Scramble Bombers: Antimatter cost reduced to 40/30/20 (from 50/40/30)- Microphasing Aura: Radius increased to 10000 (from 8000)- Replicate Forces: Create 6 frigates or 3 cruisers (instead of 3 frigates or 3 cruisers)Capital Colony Ship:Akkan Battleruiser:- Targeting Uplink: Now give 5%/10%/15% DPS increase in addition to already existing bonusesJarrasul Evacuator:- Colonize: Now add 100% population grow increasese for 240/480/720s in addition to already existing bonuses
This was the reason we buffed them now you want to buff carriers back to the way they were?Your math is flawed in that it only works for maybe the 2nd cap.From there on the cost to get caps skyrockets.The other problem you have is the first cap is free.How can you balanc the cost of that?
@Arthanis: I support most of your suggestions there.. I am still against SC increases as I want that to be a carrier's area of expertise. I am not for the AM decrease on GRG either, but from what I can tell, I agree on the other ones.
@Carbon: Ahh... But that would be too easy. Honestly, I was in the mode of buff counters rather than nerf directly. But I do believe that knocking down their bonus to heavies and capitals would be a great way to stop them from slaying caps late game...
But then again, you just made capital rushes easier. Maybe it wouldn't be too easy... So perhaps you would want to buff flak up to 100% against light and have HC's deal about 25% higher damage to light targets. That ought to help with the whole Illuminator>Enforcer issue without causing any real problems (as if anyone ever actually build HC's to counter a seige frigate swarm).
Capitals counter LF better than they counter anything else in the game...? That Disciples are somewhat useful against capitals very early on is only because Disciples are extremely cost-effective ships. However, that ships can counter a rush doesn't make them a counter...?
Heavies do more damage to LRF, but also take more.
LRF seem a better choice as the counters to support cruisers. LF don't have to be as hard a counter to LRF as LRF are to them in the current version. As it is LF just disappear from the game, unless there are Seekers to support them. Fighters are vulnerable to flak and also have to counter each other and bombers.
1. Caps are not specialized, they are "carrier cap", "battlecruiser" only because they ae slightly better in one job then other caps. Nothing justify one ship being super-specialized in one job (excluding colonizers) and keeping it multipurpose unit, while other caps completley suck in this job and are only slightly specialized in other functions.
2. Even with my changes CarrierCaps are still superior in term of SC control - they have both highest number of SC (by far) and best SC supporting abilities.
3. Only non-carrier cap with relatively high SC armament is Support Cap. Why? Because this Caps class is weakest by far, including their relatively weak special powers. Turning them into something between ?Batlecruiser and Carrier is IMO step into good direction.
4. Players need more freedom while choising their 1st/2nd/3rd cap. Buffing SC number on non-carrier caps will give players this freedom, but CarrierCaps will be still best choice (by far) for SC-lovers.
Actually, I didn't support the carrier cap buff. Look at the old PSCF, I'm listed under "nay" for increased number of squads.
Secondly, it is COMPLETELY inappropriate for a level 1 capital ship to outperform an equal cost in equivalent frigates, especially carrier caps since fighters are the only counter to bombers. I can accept a high level carrier cap totally outperforming cruisers of equivalent command cost, but not a level 1.
Capital ships have lots of other bonuses beyond their strike craft capabilities. They are faster, they are harder to kill, they aren't nearly vulnerable to light frigate spam (the obvious counter to carrier cruisers), they have their own attack, they can bombard planets, and they have powerful special abilities at their disposal.
Something has to give, they aren't just better than carrier cruisers, they're in another league entirely. It's only later on when crew upgrades become exorbitantly expensive that carrier cruisers shine. This wouldn't be as much of a problem if other capital ship classes were of similar power and if bombers had another counter. However, the problem is that the only counter to bombers is fighters, and those come from carriers, which is locking us into a carrier-cap start. The colony caps and a few exceptional alternatives (Marza and Kortul) are the only capital ships that compete with carriers for the choice of first capital ship. I've seen some Vulkoras rushing, as well, but if you scout and see it coming you can intercept it with... sigh... a carrier cap loaded with bombers.
First of all, my math was overly generous. I didn't count the free carrier cap (on the unrealistic presumption that your first capital ship somehow negates it), only the second cap. If you lead with a colony cap or a battleship cap, then you have to counter both of these carriers strike craft with cruisers. If you like I'll append some more math to show you what happens if you get hit by 3 carrier caps and don't have a carrier of your own. Again, the hard facts:
Capital Ship (1st): 0 to build, 0 for crew upgradeCapital Ship (2nd): 6000 to build, 1500 for crew upgradeCapital Ship (3rd): 6000 to build, 2900 for crew upgradeDrone Host: 3300 to build, 1300 to researchTEC/Vasari Carrier: 2100 to build, 2000 to research, 1500 for third lab
So now let's do the math against three carrier caps. Let's presume, as before, you need 6 strike craft to counter each of them. That's 6 drone hosts or 9 carriers for the other factions. Total cost:
6 Drone Hosts: 21300 effective credits9 TEC/Vasari Carriers: 22400 effective credits3 Capital Ship: 16400 effective credits
Yes, if you ignore the free capital ship it works for Advent and marginally for TEC:
4 Drone Hosts: 14500 effective credits6 TEC/Vasari Carriers: 16100 effective credits2 Capital Ship: 16400 effective credits
However, my point still stands: in the best of situations this only manages to match what the capital ships have in terms of strike craft power. Those capital ships have other benefits as well. Moreover, they have better operational range because they don't have antimatter concerns and they're harder to counter with a simple light frigate spam.
Let me remind you: you need to COUNTER bombers with fighters. The only cost-effective counter to carrier caps? Other carrier caps. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
Agreed.
This "nerf" would really only put them inline with LF in terms of damage to heavies and capital. This would actually help early game in my opinion more than late game. LRF are cheap enough and get benefits from weapon research that would still make them quite deadly in mass late game.
Also, Capital rushes can be countered by LF as stated by Darvin3 above. I don't really see a slight nerf to a Tier 2/3 tech against tier 5 tech and capitals causing capital ship rushes to become easier. Flak don't need to be buffed in this case as Scout's already do 200% damage to LRF. Heavies would be indiretly buffed with this as LRF would do 25% less damage so no need for a damage buff of Heavies to light armor. This would indeed help with Illuminator->Enforcer encounters as Heavies would be receiving 25% less damage.
Nice. I'll add another interesting stat to this. Raw Time to build based on tech, research and unit. Lab(63s), Carrier Research(58s), Fleet1(35s), Capital Research(46s), Capital(63s), Carrier(58s), LF(20s).
6 Drone Hosts: 567 seconds (2 labs, Carrier Research, Fleet Research, 6 units)9 TEC/Vasari: 804 seconds (3 labs, Carrier Research, Fleet Research, 9 units)3 Capital Ship: 442 seconds (2 labs, Fleet Research, 2 Capital Research, 3 units)3 Capital Ships + 16 LF: 762 seconds
4 Drone Hosts: 451 seconds6 TEC/Vasari: 630 seconds2 Capital Ship: 270 seconds (or again 442 seconds if you built a colonizer for first cap)
Time to 1st unit:1st drone host: 242 seconds1st TEC/Vasari: 305 seconds1st free cap: 63 seconds
So 6 hosts is 18 squads and 3 caps is a max at level 1 12(haly)or 9 for others.2 caps is 8 squads while 4 hosts is 12.Seems carriers outperform caps in squads.Level 3 gets another 1-2 squads but is another what 2750 in crew training for each ship?So 21300 for carriers and 24650 for caps to equal in sc.Also I dont think the first cap should count in your math cause its freeeeeeeee.You get no free carriers so why is that included?
Keep in mind that many of these can be done simultaneously. Nothing is stopping you from researching both drone hosts and fleet at the same time. As well, the bottom line may end up being cost anyways, and if that's the case all those numbers go out the window.
If you want to pursue those metrics further (because that is potentially interesting info, you're right) you should actually try these build orders and time yourself to see how long it takes to make that many units. This will give a more realistic representation without having to crunch income and independent build queues mathematically.
My hunch is that $$$ will be the bottom line of how quickly you can get these things out the door. I remember the harshest carrier rush I ever took was when the enemy had 3 neutral extractors in a well next to their homeworld... lots of extra income right off the bat.
Yup, because a capital squad > cruiser squad. In practice I find six cruiser squads to every capital carrier is needed for proper suppression. I've tried getting away with fewer, but it doesn't work very well. You will indeed be able to force the enemy to stop making bombers, but they'll swap to fighters and keep up the push. You've managed to negate the threat of bombers, but the carrier caps are still a major threat. They're slowly winning the strike craft war (your inferior cruiser carriers are only buying time). This is why you need to outnumber them, to actually suppress strike craft levels so you can take advantage of air supremacy.
Given all the other advantages of carrier capital ships, carrier cruisers by comparison are not performing well enough. I think in all the number crunching you've lost my point in the absurdity of it all: the carrier cruisers are just sitting ducks other than their function as carriers, the capital ships are still very active and dangerous after you've negated their strike craft. This is why there isn't an argument here. Even if you do succeed in winning the SC battle, you've still got a capital ship with capital ship stats and abilities to deal with.
Exactly, you get no free carrier cruisers, but you DO get a free carrier cap. It's still there, deploying bombers (or fighters, as it may be) and it needs to be matched with your own strike craft.
My whole underlying point is that the only way to do it is with a carrier cap of your own. Carrier cruisers just aren't up to the job cost-wise, and the other capital ships are sitting ducks without strike craft support.
Well... If fighters/bombers are too game-dominating maybe we should think of buffing Flak Figates...
And I am 100% sure LRF should be very effectively countered by HC, LF, Caps and fighters at close range
I was always thinking long range units are supossed to be long-range fire support, not main attack units able to annihilate evrything at every distance (I still support idea of reducing LRF accurancy vs close targets).
Problem is primarily early game with carrier caps.
As for LRF, range means very little in this game unless you're attacking stationary targets or are protected by a starbase or turret. In any other situation, covering ground is trivial and the longer-ranged frigate gets maybe one free volley. If you made them routinely beaten by virtually every other combat unit, LRF would be a niche unit rarely used at all.
Then there is very easy solution to this situation: Reduce number of Strikecrafts squads on lvl1 Carrier caps by 1 [without changing max number of squads on lvl 10 carer]. It will not afect mid-high level carriercaps, but lvl1 carrcaps will get Strikecrafts power reduced by 33%...
Then make them more specialized by giving them more range. Let say:
LRF range increased by 33%
LRF have 50% chance of missing their target vs targets at 50% of their maximum range and below
Ran some quick tests on this...
Without touching the black market it took less than 15 minutes (game time) to build 3 capital carriers and 11 LF. The third capital carrier completed with the 11th LF.Utilizing the black market it took 10 minutes (game time) flat to build 3 capital carriers and zero LF.
Utilizing the black market to keep production going took 14 minutes (game time) to build 9 TEC carriers (scuttled the cap factory for third mil lab).
Having neutral extractors nearby would definately help with a early rush of any unit type.
Again:
What do you think of reducing lvl1 carriercaps number of SC squads by 1 (without touching lvl10 max SC number)?
IMO it will make cost effective countering carriercaps MUCH easier.
Last version, carriers did have only 2 squads at level 1. The popular consensus from players was that this was too few, and they got an additional squad in the last patch. Your idea is basically to roll-back this change.
Only at lvl1 carriers cap. I don't want to change alredy existing maximum of available SC squads, I just want to transfer one SC squad from lvl1 Cariercap to one of the further cap levels. Something like:
lvl1: 2 SC Squads
lvl2: 3 SC Squads
lvl3: 4 SC Squads
lvl4: 5 SC Squads
lvl6: 6 SC Squads
lvl8: 7 SC Squads
lvl10: 8 SC Squads
Clear? Only lvl1 CarrierCaps will be nerfed.
IMO:
Carrier caps:
- Start with 2 SC
- additional SC at levels: 2,3,4,6,8,10
- 8 SC max
Battleships / Planet Killers / Colonizers:
- Start with 1 SC
- Additional SC at levels: 5,10
- 3 SC max
Supporters:
- Additional SC at levels: 3,5,8,10
- 5 SC max
I've read the points made by Darvin, Arthanis, MindsEye, etc. Some of my input.
I don't have a problem with the strength of capital ships. I think they were too weak for too long. I'm glad they were buffed (including carrier capitals).
I don't have a problem with capital ship rushes (I'm not saying I don't have a problem HANDLING them, I'm saying I don't have a problem with the fact that this strat is allowed or exists). Note however that the strength of this strat is dependent on mapsize, number of players, and game speed. Crowded rush maps, fast speed, online MP = strong capship rush strat. But 1v1 small random map? Or huge uncrowded maps? It's not so viable.
I don't have a problem with the number of strikecraft deployed by carrier caps, nor the strength of carrier caps in general. I don't have a problem with carrier caps outperforming carrier cruisers. Why? Because I support the idea of strong capships. Capships SHOULD be able to outperform cruisers. If it was the intent of the devs to move capships from "crapships" to a more leading role - I'm cool with that. Carrier cap dominance only goes so far, though. Obviously you can't build 40 or 50, like you can with carrier cruisers. So carrier caps are superior, but not spammable, so they dominate early. Cruisers will provide the overwhelming bulk later game. I'm cool with that. (Having said that, I'm not saying that I am opposed to adjustments to carrier cruisers or hangers, if needed - I'm not. I'm just saying the principle that carrier caps outperform carrier cruisers doesn't bother me).
Where any problems lie, in my opinion, is with balancing caps race to race. As a hypothetical example, if I am going to get rushed by sovas or halcyons, I want to know that I have an answer as vasari, whatever that answer is. If my answer is supposed to be skirantra, and that answer is lacking, then buff it. Again, this was just a hypothetical.
Darvin has made good points about the only way to counter bombers from carrier caps early is to build your own carrier cap. I agree with this. My first ovservation is, it seems this is only a problem with the fast crowded MP games. Obviously the problem doesn't exist on slow games with large uncrowded maps, or with SP. So should we be balancing the game around the way it is played online? I think not. My second observation is, should the problem be solved by buffing other caps? I think so. There is lots of potential here, i.e. sheer toughness and firepower of buffed battleships, a buffed flakburst or jam weapons or magentize, etc. Finally, if a nerf to carrier caps is to be considered (not saying it should be), I think what would do the job is have killed capship strikecraft rebuild more slowly.
I think the buffed caps patch was a big step in the right direction. More caps are being used now than before. I think some small game tweaks here and there (hangers, antimatter, etc), plus needed buffs to other capships, will move the game further along. And if we can ever get Advent straightened out, the game might actually approach some semblance of balance.
The problem with cap carriers compared to cruisers is that SC building with caps is independant of AM and cruisers are dependant on AM. This means that caps are always building their SC at optimal rates while cruisers are hampered once their squads are destroyed because of AM issues likely at that point. I am not suggesting switching it over to being dependant on AM because this would really screw up any abilities used by caps when you may prefer the abilities to the SC squads. It should be clear why cap carriers are so stronger than cruisers in regards to their SC. Plus the caps have other weapons and abilities that make them something more than just sitting ducks even after their SC are negated. When you look at the fact that for 2 advent drone hosts with 6 AM squads and nothing else you can have 1 halcyon that can have 4 AM independant squads at level 1 with progressively more hull/shields,SC, weapons, and abilties on the actual ship, its a no-brainer. Carrier caps are OP at present IMO. I do not support changing modifiers on lrf to caps either. Manage your caps better if you don't want them to die and remember that repair bays are your friend.
[_]-Greyfox
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