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NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

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Deceiver_0
Greyfox2
Join Date 01/2009
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Reply #501 January 9, 2010 10:45:45 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

It depends entirely on how upgraded the starbase is, how upgraded the illums are and what support you have.  SBs in general are a pain to take down with illums if they are fairly well upgraded.  My point is that a lot of times I don't build illums much because they are killed quickly by cap carrier fighters and scouts.  I don't see lrf in general built as much because of this due to this being a popular and effective rush.  In this situation lrf are inefficient and will just lead to the one building lrf dying.  Sure there are some situations where someone does NOT rush carrier caps with LF/scouts and illums get built to the point of spam.  Eventually even the disc/halcyon rushers will switch to illums if the game gets that far. 

On a side note, I thought you were not playing multiplayer anymore because you say it sucked so much, agent.  I tire of seeing you gripe in an unproductive manner so it would be nice if you would refrain from it on this thread.  You have many other threads to make your unproductive griping/comments known.  Productive suggestions or comments are another matter though.

 

[_]-Greyfox

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MindsEye
Join Date 05/2008
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Reply #502 January 9, 2010 10:51:53 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

So, general agreement. 10-20 illums is counterable, 30 will melt a capital ship ridiculously fast, 50 will push you on the defensive regardless of your fleet, and 80 will roll a starbase without trouble. Glad we got that cleared up.

Actually 80 will prob kill anything of equal size.

Making fighters stronger against illums (and LRF in general) will hit armies with fewer illums harder.

Not if they get more flak and more fighters.Then their lrf will be protectec.Trick is to make fighters force players to build something other than ilums and win.

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Agent of Kharma
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #503 January 9, 2010 10:55:04 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

So, general agreement. 10-20 illums is counterable, 30 will melt a capital ship ridiculously fast...

Just watched replay of a recent game.  How many illums does it take to be a threat to capships?  23.  I lost my cap, then my teammate lost his 2 caps to the same 23 illums, and my teammate was running from them.  3 caps killed from 2 different players in minutes to the same 23 illums.  Can find a few more details here: https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/373346/page/2/#2501824

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Agent of Kharma
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Reply #504 January 9, 2010 11:04:39 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

On a side note, I thought you were not playing multiplayer anymore because you say it sucked so much, agent.

I said I was extremely careful and judicious about the games I played in, and who I played with, and thus it was extremely difficult for me to get games most of the time.  I also said I had scaled back my involvement in multiplayer.  But I did not say I was not playing multiplayer anymore.

I tire of seeing you gripe in an unproductive manner so it would be nice if you would refrain from it on this thread.

I tire of you addressing me at all, in any capacity, ever.

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MindsEye
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Reply #505 January 9, 2010 4:52:38 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

On a new note whats everyone think about the celio.Its designate is awesome ability but its shield restore sucks at 2.5.I think it should be at least 5.Maybe 10.What do you all think?

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
Join Date 12/2008
+42
Reply #506 January 9, 2010 9:32:23 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

So as far as LRMS go-

Can most of us agree that Anti-medium damage vs Cap ship armor should be reduced? (currently its 75% I believe) Which is the same as Bombers and Heavy Cruisers. Personally I'd like to see Cap ship armor take reduced damage from LRFs(anti-medium) and bombers (anti-v.heavy)from 75% to at least 66% (more than LFS, but less than heavies). Heavy cruisers should stay at 75% IMO because by the time HCs are common, Cap ships should be at higher levels and health and armor upgrades can and should have been purchased. But at the LRF/Bomber level (3 labs) caps are still low leveled and upgrades are likely unpurchased.

 

For Cielos: 5 would be fine, 10 I think is too much, dont forget it also reduces weapon cooldowns by 10%. Embolden Im not incredibly worried about cuz its kinda middle of the road. Its not GREAT, but it isnt terrible IMO either. Its got a quick cooldown and lasts for 60 seconds I think (for a total of 150 extra shields, 300(5) over 60 seconds would be pretty powerful, 600(10) over 60 seconds would be ridiculous). So Cielos have a middle of the road ability and an awesome ability leaving them pretty balanced to me.

 

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Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #507 January 9, 2010 10:00:12 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

The problem with LRF is a matter of scale, not of any static multiplier.  All the LRF, even the infamous illuminator, are fine if their numbers are in the 10-20 range.  In these smaller battles, reducing LRF vs capital ship damage may be a bad thing.  The problem with pointing to heavies is that they do not appear in very great numbers early on.  The problem with pointing to bombers is the best way to deploy them early game is with carrier caps, and the best way to counter them is also with carrier caps (set to fighters instead).  This is only reinforcing the current reliance on carrier-class caps.  I do think that LRF fulfill a very important role with regards to countering capital ships early.

The problem is that this role does not scale very well.  Once you hit the mid-late game and LRF numbers grow very large, they just melt through capital ships like butter.  We need a solution that scales well, that keeps capital ships alive in the late-game and keeps their counter functional in the early-game.  I don't think tweaking the armour type modifiers is going to achieve this.

A Cielo buff sounds like a good idea.

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Volt_Cruelerz
Join Date 06/2008
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Reply #508 January 9, 2010 10:46:44 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Researchable?  Idk..  I made another suggestion, amending Agent's idea for capping FF damage, but I don't like it.  It would solve the problem, but only with tremendous sacrifices to the way the game is played, and I hate the idea.  It would work, but my idea would cause so many issues that I don't think it would be worth it.

At this point, I think the only [realistic] option is to create a new bracket for capital research under the defense tree or something...  At first the upgrades would be small boosts to health and whatnot, but the later ones (tier VII and VIII) would give boosts such as a weapons bank increase.  That would help them cope with late game swarms of LRF.  Also, these upgrades would have have to be moderately cheap.  If not, no one would buy them and as such, capitals will become worthless things.

Really, I see no [working] option aside from this.

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Deceiver_0
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Reply #509 January 9, 2010 10:58:32 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Ok, I see your point. Then what would you recommend? Perhaps a larger increase in stats at higher levels? Maybe an increase in max shield mitigation past lvl 6? The trick would be to buff them late game but not to the point where they're OP. THe probelm I have with the huge LRF fleet arguement is that they aren't extremely common for TEC or Vasari. TEC and Vasari fleets favor diversification especially in late game as the counters for lrfs for those two races function properly. Illuminators counters do not work properly so you do see large numbers of them. When the illuminators bug is fixed, im hoping we'll see more diversification in Advent fleets, which will sap the need for a major Cap ship late game boost ( though they'll probably still need a smaller one)

By the way to all the MP players, I'd recommend, if you haven't in awhile, playing a nice long SP game once in awhile to gain a little perspective. I played a nice long SP game over the last couple of days and it reminded me of the SP dynamic.

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Twilight_Storm
Join Date 07/2009
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Reply #510 January 9, 2010 11:27:04 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Okay, not necessarily a bug, but:

The color of the progress bar for TEC frigates being built needs to be changed.  THe other 2 are fine, but unless you are at max fleet capacity, you can't really see the yellow on yellow unless you look really close.

I had another one, but i don't remember what it was anymore...also TEC tho...and i think i think of this every time i play.  I'll have to write it down next time i guess.

-Exile(\/)

Edit-  also, and i know i may sound like an asshole/moron here, but how long could it take to isolate the illum's damage bug?  It's really messing with gameplay for me.  I am steering clear of advent all around, just because i don't want to exploit, or be exploited by, the bug.

If it's more difficult than i think to fix, someone please correct me, and i appologize.  But it's been there for too long i think, and i don't recall seeing a GM/Dev/Support?anyone in authority make a comment on it.

 

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Deceiver_0
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Reply #511 January 9, 2010 11:41:25 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Its easy to find and fix, the devs know about it, my guess is that theyre so busy with getting Diplomacy ready that patching entrenchment for the MP people isnt at the top of their priority list. They'll get to it I'm sure, we'll just have to be patient. In the meantime I'd recommend making some games with "NO ADVENT" in the title and keep it strictly between Vasari and TEC.

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Twilight_Storm
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Reply #512 January 9, 2010 11:49:12 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

  But it effects both SP and MP people, and is absolutely ruining gameplay.  I understand that they are busy, but you'd think they could put one person on such a massive, and easily fixed problem.  It's made Advent unplayable.  Unless your opponent uses advent.  Though this isn't even a real fix, just a compromise.  Nobody in their right mind would play against them in MP right now, and i feel like i'm cheating if i use them in SP.

-Exile(\/)

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Deceiver_0
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Reply #513 January 9, 2010 11:54:34 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Again, patience is key. Try playing a No advent game if its ruining the gameplay for you.

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Volt_Cruelerz
Join Date 06/2008
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Reply #514 January 9, 2010 11:55:19 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Perhaps..  I don't know..  I suppose high level scaling would work as well, though due to a lack of resource input, it might be too good.  If we scale them, then idk..  You would just about have to make it special.  Early game, capitals are just about right IMO.  Late game is when ff starts shredding them.  We need a way to keep them alive, but not invincible.  

For this reason, I don't want you to be able to scare the daylights out of an enemy by suddenly bringing in a level 10 Kortul that you have been running around colonizing on a large map.  One capital ship should not constitute a fleet.  A level 10 capital should be very powerful, but it should not be invincible.  Probably unupgraded SB is about the cap as far as health and shields go, but even that is not enough.  Carrier spam can take down even the heaviest SB's with little effort at all.  If you applied the same principle to capitals, then you end up with the same result.

Aim enough guns at something, and it is going to go boom.  Or as one of the students in my Spanish III class once said, "If you get enough los boomos, anything will blow up."  The point remains.  And this point is commons sense, but how do you control it?

Late game (should you go with the idea of scaling), you will have an elect super-capital fleet that will be invincible and be able to stand against Illuminator spams, but any new capitals you attempt to build will get shredded.  The "age" gap will be monstrous and should you lose your level 8-10 capitals, nothing you could do could save you.

This is why I suggest researchables.  They are static, not dynamic like level scaling.  This way, getting a new cap doesn't mean that it will be blasted within 2 seconds of coming in range.  It still has a shot and will give you a range of capital ship levels far wider than that which we currently have.

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Deceiver_0
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Reply #515 January 10, 2010 12:29:47 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

There are already researchables, in the form of health, armor, and shield upgrades. Yes they apply to all ships, but they still apply to Caps, and they still make them harder to kill. The more I think of it, the more I'm liking an increase in max mitigation, maybe to around 75-80%. Perhaps it could increase with level starting at lvl 1 and increasing 1-2% per level. Late game, new caps need levels purchased to survive anyway, and purchasing up to level 4 could put them with a around a 70% max mitigation to begin with. At the very least, higher level caps could take a FF beating for longer, allowing for more time to heal or retreat.

 

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Volt_Cruelerz
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Reply #516 January 10, 2010 12:39:46 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

But your 30% boost in armor is negated by the Illum's 30% boost in beam damage.

I heard recently that capitals have mitigation caps that increase with level already, so idk.

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Deceiver_0
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Reply #517 January 10, 2010 1:10:56 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

30% boost in beam damage vs 30% more shields, 30% more hp and several more points of armor. One can buff survivability much more than one can buff a single ships damage. Plus you're dealing with much larger numbers with Hp/shields, where as a 30% buff to damage only adds a couple points to the base damage, so I'd say it doesn't quite negate the effects of the upgrades.

Ah your right they do increase per level, starting at 62% max and ending at 72% at level 10. I dont think this is enough. Since its already in place, that will make it easier to buff. Perhaps it should start at 65% and top at 80-85% at level 10. Increasing at a rate of 1.5-2% per level instead of just 1%.

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-Ue_Carbon
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Reply #518 January 10, 2010 1:24:47 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Just so yall know once you start hitting the ~90% mark for migitation things become unkillable very quick. We learned this with DS. With the changed Cap stats and the Advent bonuses to migitation you had unkillable Advent Caps. It didnt effect the other races as bad b/c they dont get that bonus migitation...but it doesn matter what ship it is around the 90% can have invincable units. SB is another example...with their high armor and hp regen the little damage that got through the migitation was null.

 

Dont Captials have their armor stats anyhow? What if you just reduced the damage done to them by more Damage types slighty it would give you the buff you want with making bullet proof caps or other ships.

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Twilight_Storm
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Reply #519 January 10, 2010 1:32:18 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I knw this isn't the same kind of game, but in Fallot 3/Oblivion, the max out at 85% damage reduction, so why not here too? Seems like a gaming standard to me.  and it'd make battles longer. 

-Exile(\/)

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Volt_Cruelerz
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Reply #520 January 10, 2010 1:38:54 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Idk...  Buffing mitigation likely would be a good way to go, but as Carbon said, its best to stay below the 90% mark.

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Darvin3
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Reply #521 January 10, 2010 1:38:55 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Maybe an increase in max shield mitigation past lvl 6?


My opinion is to give caps some form of "super-mitigation" that only kicks in when they take exceptionally high damage levels (focus fire, basically).  This mitigation may be an extension of the existing shield mitigation or an entirely new feature.  This mitigation would only remain active while the capital ship took excessive amounts of damage.

This would mean that focus fire would have diminishing returns against capital ships.  Doubling the number of LRF might only give you a 50% damage increase.  While this would still be deadly to capital ships, it would be much more difficult to bring them down through sheer numbers, and at very least would require time. 


THe probelm I have with the huge LRF fleet arguement is that they aren't extremely common for TEC or Vasari.


That's because (shock) these guys actually have to mix unit types to win, often mixing in carriers, flaks, support cruisers, and heavies.  It's still common to see a backbone of 30 or 40 LRM's even if there's a bunch of flaks, hoshikos, and carriers rounding it out.  It's certainly not the same as an illuminator swarm, but still enough to marginalize capital ships.

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-Ue_Carbon
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Reply #522 January 10, 2010 2:01:05 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

My opinion is to give caps some form of "super-mitigation" that only kicks in when they take exceptionally high damage levels (focus fire, basically). This mitigation may be an extension of the existing shield mitigation or an entirely new feature. This mitigation would only remain active while the capital ship took excessive amounts of damage.

This would mean that focus fire would have diminishing returns against capital ships. Doubling the number of LRF might only give you a 50% damage increase. While this would still be deadly to capital ships, it would be much more difficult to bring them down through sheer numbers, and at very least would require time.

 

Idk, adding another complicated damage reducer on top of the current 2 sounds like trouble somehow. Its another thing that could end up being bugged or flawed and take a long time to get right.

I think with all the current methods of damage reduction and HP tweaks we can do now, it be alot easier to get what your looking for. Might I suggest you take a look at Distant Stars Caps. They last alot longer and feel more like the Caps everyone is looking for. To be honest though they might be too buffed in our mod right now, but try it out anyhow and see how simply adjusting the HP and such give you Caps that stand a bit more punishment.

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Volt_Cruelerz
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Reply #523 January 10, 2010 2:10:21 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Honestly, I've always been in favor of having mitigation be spread across different damage types, but seeing as how that will never happen, I don't think we should have a super-miti either.  That would be difficult to balance and would just not end well in general.

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Reply #524 January 10, 2010 2:14:00 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Super mitigation would be nice, but I don't think its in the realm of a patch, same with separate tech tree upgrades. We need to figure out a fix to existing features to fix the problem, because the devs are not likely to create new ones. Mitigation would work, but Carbon is right, to high and the things become to tough. Certainly need to keep the max below 90%. Theres that or, increasing hp/shield increases per level or increasing armor increases per level. The problem I see with the latter two is the cap ships being too tough in general, and not specifically to FF (why i think max mitigation is the way to go). Perhaps the max at level 10 should be a base of 80 (advent upgrades could make it 84) so they take only 20% of the damage thrown at them upon FF at their highest level. IF they start out at 62% as they do now, it would put them at around 72-73% at level 6 (which is the current lvl 10 max).

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Twilight_Storm
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Reply #525 January 10, 2010 2:59:00 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Okay, that sounds good.  Advent, being the shield experts, being the ones to reach the 84-85% mark...somewhere in there.  And mitigation is certainly the easiest way to go for this fix.  It makes sense that cap ships, having the strongest shields anyway, would have stronger shield emmiters capable of withstanding more stress before losing integrity.

-Exile(\/)

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