Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!
This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.
BUGS
Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:
- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously
- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously
- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots
- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.
- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.
- Random Map Bugs:
- Single Phase lane starts
- No connected Asteroids
- Overlapping Gravity Wells
- Backwards Dunov Icon
- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)
- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock
- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul
- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.
- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING
- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).
CAPITAL SHIPS
This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.
Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)
Increase hp/shields/armor?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay-
Increase DPS?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon CallenExile Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Onigiri
Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Hrabandur Onigiri
Re-work Animosity?
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Hrabandur Onigiri
No Change needed- CoBBQ
Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)
Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- CallenExile MindsEye
No Change needed-
Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)
Buff Scramble Bombers?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Onigiri
Buff Replicate Forces?
Yay- Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)
Increase AM regen?
Yay- Darvin3 Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- CallenExile Mindseye Onigiri
Increase maximum AM?
Yay- CallenExile Darvin3 Hrabandur Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon Onigiri
Increase Dunov EMP range?
Yay- CallenExile Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?
Yay- Mindseye CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Deceiver_0
Nay- Ryat Volt_Cruelerz Warlord Mike Swordsalmon Onigiri
Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon
Buff Phase out hull?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- Ryat Onigiri
No Change Needed-
DELIVERANCE ENGINE
Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)
Buff Deliverance engine-
Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Kitkun Greyfox2 anteachtaire Mow Mow Warlord Mike Hrabandur Arthanis
Nay- Howdidudothat
No buff needed- Qu4r Darvin3 CallenExile
EMPIRE TREE
As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?
Adjust Empire Tree-
Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 SwordSalmon JSW_Ballz Mindseye Agent of Kharma Ryat 52500 Mow Mow Fuzzy Logic EadTaes Warlord Mike Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile
FIGHTERS
Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions
Buff Fighters-
Increase armor/hp?
Yay- Mindseye Mow Mow Greyfox2 Qu4r Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Ryat Top Vasari Warlord Mike EadTaes Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma CallenExile CrazyElectron
MAPS
Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?
Magnetic Clouds-
Allow starbase deployment?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Hrabandur Juletron Howdidudothat Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r CrazyElectron
Nay- Ryat CallenExile EadTaes DesConnor -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician
Ice/Volcanic planets-
Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Ryat Darvin3 Juletron Mindseye Mow Mow EadTaes JSW_Ballz Howdidudothat Warlord Mike Kitkun Ovi_187 -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CrazyElectron
Nay- CallenExile DesConnor DirtySanchezz Hrabandur Agent of Kharma Qu4r
No Changes needed-
ORKULUS STARBASE
This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.
Nerf Orkulus-
Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)
Yay- Greyfox2 Raging Amish(3x) Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Cykur Howdidudothat Top Vasari Swordsalmon Ryat anteachtaire LordMechanoid JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike Agent of Kharma DesConnor DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Qu4r CallenExile
Other-
SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")
Yay- Mindseye Deceiver_0 Howdidudothat Top Vasari Cykur LordMechanoid Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CallenExile CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- JSW_Ballz DesConnor Qu4r
SCOUT FRIGATES
A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.
Nerf Scouts-
Decrease hp/shields?
Yay-
Nay- DirtySanchezz Cykur Arthanis
Decrease DPS?
Yay- DirtySanchezz Greyfox2 Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Cykur
Increase Cost/supply?
Yay- Mindseye Cykur Swordsalmon
Nay- DirtySanchezz Arthanis
No Nerf Needed- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma Sivcorp 52500 JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron
Balance Scouts-
Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Mow Mow Swordsalmon Darvin3 Ryat Greyfox2 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur Top Vasari LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat CallenExile
Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?
Yay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat Greyfox2 Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Wingflier Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat CallenExile 52500 LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician JSW_Ballz Cykur Greyfox2 Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?
Yay- Mow Mow Swordsalmon Howdidudothat Ryat Chaotic Magician 52500 JSW_Ballz Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- Wingflier DirtySanchezz Darvin3 CallenExile Cykur Greyfox2 LordMechanoid Kitkun
Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?
Yay- Mow Mow Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician Sivcorp Top Vasari Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid
No Balance Needed- Agent of Kharma EadTaes DesConnor
RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS
While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?
Buff Skirmishers-
Increase DPS? Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes DesConnor Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- LordMechanoid
Decrease Supply cost?
Yay- Raging Amish LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Resource cost?
Yay- 52500 Warlord Mike
Nay- Darvin3 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat DirtySanchezz Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid lbgsloan Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r Arthanis
Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp Runesia DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Yes we all know that lrf-lf may be the hardest counter in the game.The other one that rivals it is flak-fighters.20 flak vs 10 carriers is 80 fp-200 fp.Flak can counter while your own fleet takes minimal losses.80-200!200 fp kills 4 or 5 ships while 80 fp renders them useless for a long period of time.Dont forget 30 squads of fighters is pretty good feed for you cap.
This is my point that you said yourself.This means there is no mid game counter besides your own lrf.
In a real mp battle we would have 200 fp to play with not 100.That means you would have 30 fighters and I about 20 flak and 20ish ilums.Maybe you would kill 5 or so but I can replace them faster then you can kill them and 15-20 ilums can make pretty good work of a cap or a carrier making you retreat and losing you planet.In that case I would say you lost more than I.If I kill 1 carrier we are about even as 3 ilums=1 carrier.I also put you on defense.If you jump out to retreat you lose all your am making them worthless for a huge amount of time.
So what good are they when all your planets are being bombed and your other ships are being killed.If you have a ship with 0 dps it might as well be dead so I can build something else that has dps.
You cant kite with carriers they are slower than lrf.You can only dock and rebuild a few times and your out of am then it takes like 10 min just to rebuild without making a single jump.
Well I find this to be untrue.While I havent killed the carriers they are near useless for a pretty good while and I will capitalize.You killed 3k in creds worth of ilums but I killed 15k in creds worth of carriers.In the end the one who can feild dps will win the day.If we were in mp I would be attacking and bombing your planets while you wait to rebuild.You have no dps for a long period and unless my eco is horrible crap then I can easily replace a few ilums.If I am in pursuit and your targeting my ilums with flak by then your fighters are going to be hitting all my flaks guns and dieing faster.If your building lf then you had to go up in fleet supply which means you now have lesser eco then me from upkeep.
Just some numbers to keep in mind.It takes 18 seconds to build a fighter.Each squad has 9 fighters in it so thats 162 sec to build a squad.It takes 29 sec to build a flak and 24 sec for ilum.It takes 58 sec to build a carrier.Thats a combined 220 sec for carrier to come online.I can build about 4 flak or 5 ilum before you can bring 1 carrier online or rebuild your fighters.If you dock and rebuild in well that number goes up to 7.If you carriers are being attacked your build penatly is almost 50%.Thats 27 sec for 1 fighter.
Carrier cost-3305
Flak cost-630
Ilum cost-897.5
Bottom line for me is I find it extremely difficult to use fighters as a counter to lrf when flak are present.Maybe you are a better player then me I never hardly see you so I havent played with you much.I dont think it works but can get you killed.
Keep in mind Im not wanting any major buffs to fighters but maybe a small nudge to make them more useable.
Uh, Deciever? I'm not sure you tallied my votes for magnetic clouds and increased mines...
By rush situation, I meant early game, not mid game. Carriers are fine in mid-game IMO.
These are all hypothetical situations that require you to assume certain things which may or may not be true. Example: Easily replacing illums requires the assumption that you have a frigate factory nearby. A variable, maybe you do maybe you don't. Or how about this one: Bombing my planets requires the assumption that we're fighting close to my territory. Another variable, maybe we are maybe we aren't. Who says I HAVE to upgrade fleet supply? What if I have some left over? OR have done it already? You make it seem like your basing your argument on a specific situation in which you make assumptions that one side has advantages the other doesnt (like having a frig factory nearby, or being on the offensive) including the fact that one side has the counter for the other. I would say that the situation you describe (in that the lrfs and flak would win, planet bombing, putting on defense etc) could be said for ANY strategy-counter situation. Replace carriers with lfs, same thing happens. Replace flak with bomber carriers and fighter carriers with HCs, same thing happens. Replace flak with scouts and carriers with lrf, same thing happens. The only difference in this counter vs others is that fighters only have a time value. And theres no good way to compare resource value to time value. So then we can only compare what we see.
In the little scenario I cooked up (5 carriers vs 10lums/10flak) we're only testing 1 thing: How effective flak are at protecting ships from fighters. No rush situations, reinforcements, planet bombing, cap ships to worry about, docking kiting, launching... nothing except for flak protecting lrf from fighters and the skill of the people using them (the only variable we cant really get rid of). I mean thats what we're talking about right? Flak being too effective? OK, so with that, how many lrfs do you think I could kill with the current balance, and how many do you think it ought to be?
I'd say against you I could probably kill half, and thats what I think it ought to be.
Oh and BTW, I've played with you many times. I very rarely play online under this Alias. How do you think I know you're better at macro and a little better at micro than me?
Anyways the point of the scenario is to prove one of us wrong about flak vs fighters to the other. If you want my support for your suggested change, prove me wrong. If not, find a couple other people who think the same thing and will support your argument. Then, as always, I'll put it to a vote. K?
Ech sry, the debate with Mind got me a little distracted, but don't worry, all will be updated in time.
I have said in the past that fighters were nerfed too hard post 1.1 and I still believe so. Flak are too effective at clearing the field of fighters. I am less sure of what change should be made to make them somewhat usable without making flak obsolete again. I would agree with mindseye. Once flak are out it is generally stupid to have fighters on those carriers still. You are not gonna kill many LRF before the squads are gone. While the carriers are still there, it takes a long time to rebuild the squads even if you have the AM. A ship without a way to kill other ships is just so much meat for the grinder and so much dead weight. Sure they could still be of use if you run them to another well but a battle lost can be pivotal to the entire game and it may require time you don't have to make them semi-useful again while your opponent who built lrf and flak still has the bulk of his dps untouched. Flak are dirt cheap and carriers are expensive and no matter that SC are replaced without resources that is still a lot of crap to have there doing nothing and there is nothing to say that it won't happen again when you rebuild the fighters. As of now fighters are only good very early with carrier caps to help with the early rush and to defend SB either being built in a vasari sb rush or against bomber runs later on. It only takes a fraction of the fleet supply and resources in flak to suppress any amount of fighters you can field.
[_]-Greyfox
I don't want to deprecate this thread, as it's almost all the platform that we have, however I won't believe that there is a serious attempt to balance the game until the very best players will play each other 1v1 with all the various factions. With version v1.041, would any of them play any other faction against Advent? Replays of 1v1 games would be more of a challenge to the developers than exists at present.
Until we have balance, Advent=easy. Advent seem to be the noob faction in v1.041. They have the best spam with scouts and Disciples... why is it imagined that 4 Skirmishers can stand up to 7 Disciples? Disciples got the best of the light frigate buff. The Advent economy has no major disadvantages, the early culture boost offsets more of the TEC advantage after the Entrenchment nerf to trade routes. Advent caps are claimed to have synergy but the reality is that they are also very powerful self-contained ships, their carrier has a powerful flak ability, the mothership an over strong area protection ability- to get (almost) the equivalent of both TEC would require four of their five capitals, with a battleship to protect a non-flak carrier, and a battlecruiser to defend the vulnerable colony ship- that would be a synergy... The late game disadvantages are mostly theoretical.
Advent just seem to ignore both the lore and the supposed balance of the game. They are supposed to rely on shields not health, yet they have more powerful health repair bays than Vasai- why? They get phase inhibitors at tier 3, before TEC, yet they aren't supposed to have met the Vasari until later...? Why should Advent be the early spam faction- or the most rapid expanders???
This might be an oversimplification, but I'd appreciate a few 1v1 replays that showed it to be wrong, instead of just opinions based on 5s and mixed team play.
Also, why have some of the topics of the previous thread been abandoned for this one, can they be included? The Enforcer is no better than it was, while the Illuminator scarcely got the nerf that was widely believed essential.. has the Kodiak range and the buff to the Disciple changed the situation that much?! Even without the game-breaking bug, we'd still return to the same situation as before. If the Illuminator were balanced using the same method as the Skirmisher, it should take 10-11 supply..
The normal start extractor bug has been confirmed- it only applies to the home planet for some reason. Can it be added to the bug list, and can someone confirm the Advent AI bug with homing mines, where the carriers become next to useless after mines are researched?
My guess would be 4ish but if your not gonna dock or kite or anything even if you got 5 like you said I still have 5 ilums and 10 flak slowing your production and killing your carriers.The flak would kill any sc that you built before they could shoot an ilum so you would not kill anymore after initial battle was over.It would take awhile but 5 ilums can still do a decent amount of damage to carriers and I would only need to kill 1 to even out the losses.What I think for the minimum would would be at least an equal trade off.I would say something like your 15 squads should be able to kill all 10 ilums.If I had 15 flak and 10 ilums you should still be able to get 5-8 before flak kill sc.IMO anything less makes fighters and carriers a useless counter to lrf.Thats just a guess.If it was up to me I would double hulls of fighter and bring build rates down by about 50%.That way fighter would counter lrf but would be a heavy trade off for doing so because flak would kill them by then.I understand keeping flak useful tho and thats why I suggested making less effective against fighter and a little more against bomber to keep them useful.
My mp scenerios were based off the fact that usually in mp you are either battling over one of your planets or one of mine.I said one of yours to say that your carriers would have am and have more for rebuilding.If its mine then you lost at least 100 am or more.
Haha thanks grey I was begiining to think I was only one.
You certainly aren't the only one. Others think what you think. However, the question is "what to do?"
Personally I'm a little fearful of buffing fighters because I don't want carriers to become what they were before. I think it's a knife edge unit. Buff a little too much, it's totally OP. Hard to find the sweet spot. Having said that, I can't see that rank carrier spam would be any worse than what we have now, rank illum spam.
By the way, I'm not calling Deceiver wrong - his posts are well-reasoned (actually both yours and his are), and it's good to see such a good debate with good points made on all sides, no matter who is right in the end. I'd actually like to see you guys conduct this test.
if at all possible, i think it would be cool if magnetic clouds hid all ships inside them, so like, only yo ucan see them, but not your enemy and you cant see your enemy
alternatively, go the opposite way and show many many more ships than there actually are, just to confuse players
though i prefer the first idea, itd be good to launch surprise attacks from, as for balance... perhaps sufficient scouts or a researchable tech to allow visibility in mag clouds for a period...
Ya I respect Decievers opinions.I dont mean to come across otherwise.We all have our own.
Actually, here's one issue that's been bothering me for some time: yellow and light green. I'm colour blind, and I can't actually tell the difference between these two team colours!
This is a tough issue. Personally, I say the current balance of fighters is probably the best you can get. We saw hat life was like with stronger strikecraft back in 1.10. Now, I wasn't around for it, but it sounds like it was a close, but carriers replaced LRF's as the backbone of the fleet, so the balance wasn't any better.
Currently, I'm perfectly content having scouts as the counter to long range frigates. HELL, the scout is the fighter in FRIGATE form. Seriously. It relies on numbers, is overall individually weak ( seeker exempted, needs a nerf of about ten to twenty percent in total toughness), does anti-light damage, and is the quickest non-strikecraft unit in the game.
I love the current state of balance of the game. In the two years I've been playing, this is closest we've been to balance. There are still exploits, and the Vasari need a touch here and there, but I've never had this much fun with variety in fleets. There are counters. Currently, I feel there is no strategy that is uncounterable. There are some that are annoying, and some that have one 1 effective counter, but that's what's different: unlike before, everything has an answer.
So back to original response. I'm happy with fighters as is. Make scouts the lrf counter. Make fighters the bomber counter, and keep flak at their current mark.
If there's a way to fix fighters adequately, I think it would have been down now. Fighters have been messed with so much, that honestly, I think effort to make fighters a viable counter to lrf is in vein. It's the only unit that can be replaced with no cost to the owner, so that makes balancing the unit go right out the door. It spawns for free! That means it can't be too strong, or it'd be the new spam.
Give the Vasari a decent light frig, buff the scout slightly, adjust some of the techs in the military tree, buff the Assailant in toughness SLIGHTLY (five percent). There are a lot of things I would like to do with vasari to make them more unique. Having them be a race who's success is directly linked to neutrals is not viable for balance for a race.
Sorry about the rambling. Just going off on tangent thoughts.
OMG leave Orculus in peace.
So many advent wooses..... pay attension whats going on, u dont need extra warning , nor, especialy ,more time to exploit lums.
Hands away from last vasa working early weepon.
Ditto. I am also curious as to what you think should be done? Personally I don't understand the mentality that carriers are useless after all their sc are dead, and why Grey and Mind think that fighters being counterd by flak is any different than lfs being countered by lrfs as far as fleet dps goes. Either way you lose that "pivotal battle", that planet gets bombed, the end.
That is true so long as I don't kite and don't dock.
Stronger fighters and a buff to Flak vs Bombers puts bombers in a bad place. That would mean a double nerf for them, which isn't good if you're trying to destroy an SB (suck double for Vasari trying to kill an enemy SB quickly), HCs, Cap ships and structures. Also, you feel carriers are useless once their squads are destroyed because it takes so long to rebuild them (which I disagree with), but why would you want to magnify that effect? Fighters have other roles other than an lrf counter. Wouldn't it make it more difficult to counter the quickly and easily replaceable scout fleets if they have a couple flak thrown in? Once the fighters were dead, wouldnt you be that much more screwed having to wait longer for rebuild? If I were to recommend a slight buff to fighters, I'd probably say to add a point or two of armor to their hulls. They'll live a little bit longer that way, but won't throw off the balance of its other purposes too much.
Here's the thing for me. Flak counter fighters a little harder than say lrfs counter lfs. That may be true. But the trade-off is that fighters can be rebuilt at NO COST. So they're countered harder, but theyre free to replace.
It is the same difference as before when LF were useless to build because lrf countered them too well. They had no staying power when any amount of lrf were built. This is the same. Flak counter fighters TOO well. So much so that there is little sense in building them once any amount of flak are on the field of play. I build them now only when A) there are no flak and there is lrf spam, B ) when I am defending starbases or caps from bombers, or C) early carrier cap spam/rush. They get switched to bombers the minute that flak shows up in any appreciable number(more than 4 or 5) except when they are to kill bombers. Even if SC are replaced with no cost, it does not matter when they cannot do much before being destroyed and need lengthy time before being replaced. It is almost always better to go with the alternatives that retain its dps the entire time.
I don't care what anyone else says, I have an almost impossible time countering illum spam as vasari, and since illum spam is ALL I SEE, that puts me in a pretty difficult predicament, wouldn't you say? I think something needs to be done here, whether it is buffing the vasari scout, buffing the vasari flak, making charged missles work against regular frigs again - whatever. I don't care what the solution is, just as long as there is a solution.
I had one success in countering illum spam as vasari - ONE, just last night. I had to forgoe keeping a capship (why keep one around? it will just die if exposed to illums) which allowed me to open those slots up for more flak. I had to produce flak CONTINUOUSLY from 4 different frig factories (in checking the replay, he only had 2 frig factories, and I think he was just pumping from 1), and I had to have massive feed to do all of this from a pretty good feeder - actually, the best feeder I've ever played with. I could not fend off his illums and chase him away until I had over twice as many flak as his illums. Someone may think that's reasonable, but when he had 30-something illums, I had around 75 flak, PLUS a ton of seekers sent over from my feeder. Do you have any idea how long it takes to pump out that much flak? I was fleeted up to around tier 5 at that point, I believe. This was only doable because of massive feed. Meanwhile, he didn't need a feeder. This was just the standard vanilla illum-spam strat, nothing exotic (all illums and nothing else ever built, besides mothership and carrier cap).
I understand the mentality that carriers are useless for countering lrf/illums, because from personal experience I can't do it - all he needs is a little flak and my carriers are useless. So I don't build carriers. But maybe that's okay. As Amish says, maybe just use scouts or flak or whatever to counter lrf/illums? I'm not particularly happy about any of this - I mean, what was the orignally-intended counter for lrf? Fighters? But at the end of the day I just want something that works. And if buffing fighters will create that rank OP carrier spam we saw back in the day, just keep them useless except for countering bombers I suppose, and give me either a vasari scout or vasari flak that can do the job effectively. Right now I feel as if I have nothing.
Ok Mindseye, Greyfox, Agent-
I'm working on a fighter Topic. So far I have my recommendation (added armor/health, something i recommended in the previous patch), but Mindseyes suggestion requires adjusting 3 ships. (fighter/carrier/flak) I can't put that up as a votable topic because 1. Its a bit lengthy 2. Multiple adjustments are more likely to had adverse effects elsewhere (example- increasing flak dmg to bombers [light armor] may increase flak dmg to lrf as well, that kinda thing) and 3. Its probably too specific an adjustment for the community and the developers to support. So do you have any other simpler fixes for the fighter? Or should I just leave up the one.
Empire Tree: yay
Fighters: nay
Empire Tree- Yay
I've had a lot of difficulty with this in particular, since my mouse doesn't scroll with the Empire Tree. So when it bounces, I end up not being able to react fast enough and can really screw my plans over.
I have really no decision on Fighters yet... I don't think they'll really be a viable LRF counter, considering how much more efficiently scouts and flak kill them off, but they should be worthy to build for other than bomber-killing.
Empire Tree: Yay. IMHO, It's currently the worst UI feature in the game.
Fighters: Man, I just can't decide. I've heard the arguments many times before, and your arguments here are really good as well. The only thing I can say with certainty is that if any buff were to be implemented, it needs to be very small.
If fighters c ouldnt do the job the first time there is no reason to think they will 2nd time around.This is after you being put on defense and retreating/losing whatever well you were fighting over.
Thanks for putting it up deciever.Honestly I didnt want all 3 ships adjusted.The 50% build rate only applied when enemy was around otherwise you could build your forces as long as you have am at normal speed.
This is what I did in my balance mod:
Carrier strikecraft build rate penalty increased to 75%.Advent Fighter hp increased from 40 to 70(squad-360 to 630).1 armorTec fighter hp increased from 60 to 105(squad-360 to 630).1 armorVasari fighter hp increased from 85 to 145(squad-340-580).3 armor
The balance worked like this.1 squad would kill 1 lrf while at the same time 1 flak would kill the fighter squad.It was an equal trade.Thing was it took a long time to rebuild fighters unless you retreated them to an alternate well.This gave a long window for other player to counter the carriers if he suicided all his fighters to kill your ships.Flak did not need any adjustments.Anyway this is a pretty radical change from game we have now and I dont expect the devs to make such a big change but all my tests showed it worked pretty good.It opned for more strategic play like managing your am for carriers(retreat to rebuild),keeping lrf out of well till fighters cleared and bombers too.Decisions on how you use your fighters would be big too.I never got to research all side effects but there would prolly need to be an adjustment for am on carriers to prevent to much retreating and rebuilding.
Yay to fighters and tree
Hi Ballz, My recommendation is, if you don't feel strongly one way or the other, don't vote on it. Which is what I will be doing at the moment. Deceiver, don't take my last post up there as "ganging up against you" (not saying you did take it that way). As I said, your posts on this are well-reasoned, and at the end of the day, who the hell knows, maybe you are right. I know something needs to be done to help vasari against illums, but I don't know if that entails buffing the scout, buffing the flak, buffing the fighter, or doing something else, so my vote on fighters at the moment is... no vote.
MAPS: change my vote to no vote.
BUFF SKIRMISHER: yae, no vote, no vote, yae.
EMPIRE TREE: yae.
The obvious solution to the flak/LRF combination isn't a flak nerf though, its the much-needed LRF nerf? Carriers have the option to change to bombers... if a slight adjustment is needed, then why not buff bombers against flak? As it is bombers have 100% damage against very heavy armour and only 50% against heavy and medium... how about 75% against heavy?
Also, LRF are supposed to be anti-medium, yet have 75% damage against very heavy and capital armour... anti-heavy gets only 50%. I'd like LRF to have 50% against both and anti-heavy 75% against very heavy. This would help caps and heavy cruisers.... and heavies are underpowered against LRF. It also seems a more rational progression.
The Orkulus.. A little Orkulus can be killed by 6 LRMs and a repair bay. The LRMs might even take no losses...
Raging has a good point about making the factions more unique, though why he wants to keep slumming with the easy Advent option is a mystery, he's run off with their scouts again perhaps? I've often wanted Vasari to be less planet-bound... perhaps even to have one of their caps function as a mobile factory, or resource processor? With the expansion there might be the opportunity to allow their envoy ships to also function as civic labs? With a health focussed faction, why the inferior repair bays...??? How about a researchable bonus that allows Navigators to supply another % health repair rate? That would be unique, and balance their lack of firepower... Free the returning fleets!.. with perhaps fewer ships, it should have been nerfed somewhat, but have remained free, given the incredible cost of the research. Bulk up the expensive support cruisers, they need their supposed faction advantage of strong health even more than the other Vasari ships. How about a situational bonus for Vasari.. if the map is fully-explored, and there is less than a critical number of neutrals?
I considered how best to limit Advent Their phase inhibitor should be tier 5, and as they are supposedly shield focussed they shouldn't have any health repair, let alone the second best. Make their repair work on shields, other factions don't have area shield repair at all, why allow Advent area health repair? They are supposed to emerge later in the game- to stop the early expansion and spam, I'd suggest a general nerf of their entire inventory. Advent could then have a buff inside its own culture back to its current levels, apart from the Illuminator. Then the other factions might be viable 1v1, and it would match the lore.
Straightforward Illuminator spam is very prevalent, and I haven't seen it countered well either. There are two variants, the colony cap and the Halcyon with its fighters and built-in flak. The colony variety needs flak added if it comes up against carriers, but I've seen a lone L1 Advent colony ship wade into a fully-stocked Terran, with the notion that it could kill enough militia ships to get to L2 and escape using shield restore, having taken the planet. That's how confident Advent players get.
What are the supposed counters for an equal supply fleet? I haven't seen any on this forum. Massed scouts might push Illuminator spammers back on their repair bays, that's all- and then they would be very easily and swiftly countered.
Subs can counter ilum and guards pretty well.I would say it is cheaper than repulse.
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