Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!
This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.
BUGS
Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:
- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously
- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously
- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots
- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.
- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.
- Random Map Bugs:
- Single Phase lane starts
- No connected Asteroids
- Overlapping Gravity Wells
- Backwards Dunov Icon
- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)
- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock
- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul
- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.
- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING
- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).
CAPITAL SHIPS
This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.
Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)
Increase hp/shields/armor?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay-
Increase DPS?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon CallenExile Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Onigiri
Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600) Darvin3 Deceiver_0 CallenExile MindsEye Swordsalmon CrazyElectron Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Hrabandur Onigiri
Re-work Animosity?
Yay- Volt_Cruelerz Darvin3 Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Hrabandur Onigiri
No Change needed- CoBBQ
Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)
Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- CallenExile MindsEye
No Change needed-
Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)
Buff Scramble Bombers?
Yay- Darvin3 Volt_Cruelerz Deceiver_0 MindsEye Swordsalmon Agent of Kharma Hrabandur Ryat Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- CallenExile Onigiri
Buff Replicate Forces?
Yay- Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)
Increase AM regen?
Yay- Darvin3 Hrabandur CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- CallenExile Mindseye Onigiri
Increase maximum AM?
Yay- CallenExile Darvin3 Hrabandur Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon Onigiri
Increase Dunov EMP range?
Yay- CallenExile Mindseye Volt_Cruelerz CrazyElectron Ryat Juletron Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?
Yay- Mindseye CrazyElectron Juletron Arthanis Deceiver_0
Nay- Ryat Volt_Cruelerz Warlord Mike Swordsalmon Onigiri
Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Onigiri
Nay- Ryat Swordsalmon
Buff Phase out hull?
Yay- Mindseye Juletron Volt_Cruelerz Arthanis Warlord Mike Swordsalmon
Nay- Ryat Onigiri
No Change Needed-
DELIVERANCE ENGINE
Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)
Buff Deliverance engine-
Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Kitkun Greyfox2 anteachtaire Mow Mow Warlord Mike Hrabandur Arthanis
Nay- Howdidudothat
No buff needed- Qu4r Darvin3 CallenExile
EMPIRE TREE
As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?
Adjust Empire Tree-
Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 SwordSalmon JSW_Ballz Mindseye Agent of Kharma Ryat 52500 Mow Mow Fuzzy Logic EadTaes Warlord Mike Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile
FIGHTERS
Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions
Buff Fighters-
Increase armor/hp?
Yay- Mindseye Mow Mow Greyfox2 Qu4r Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Ryat Top Vasari Warlord Mike EadTaes Hrabandur Howdidudothat -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma CallenExile CrazyElectron
MAPS
Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?
Magnetic Clouds-
Allow starbase deployment?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Hrabandur Juletron Howdidudothat Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r CrazyElectron
Nay- Ryat CallenExile EadTaes DesConnor -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician
Ice/Volcanic planets-
Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Swordsalmon Ryat Darvin3 Juletron Mindseye Mow Mow EadTaes JSW_Ballz Howdidudothat Warlord Mike Kitkun Ovi_187 -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CrazyElectron
Nay- CallenExile DesConnor DirtySanchezz Hrabandur Agent of Kharma Qu4r
No Changes needed-
ORKULUS STARBASE
This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.
Nerf Orkulus-
Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)
Yay- Greyfox2 Raging Amish(3x) Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Deceiver_0 Cykur Howdidudothat Top Vasari Swordsalmon Ryat anteachtaire LordMechanoid JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike Agent of Kharma DesConnor DirtySanchezz Kitkun Qu4r 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician Qu4r CallenExile
Other-
SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")
Yay- Mindseye Deceiver_0 Howdidudothat Top Vasari Cykur LordMechanoid Warlord Mike DirtySanchezz Kitkun 52500 Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Chaotic Magician CallenExile CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- JSW_Ballz DesConnor Qu4r
SCOUT FRIGATES
A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.
Nerf Scouts-
Decrease hp/shields?
Yay-
Nay- DirtySanchezz Cykur Arthanis
Decrease DPS?
Yay- DirtySanchezz Greyfox2 Mindseye Arthanis
Nay- Cykur
Increase Cost/supply?
Yay- Mindseye Cykur Swordsalmon
Nay- DirtySanchezz Arthanis
No Nerf Needed- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile Chaotic Magician Agent of Kharma Sivcorp 52500 JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron
Balance Scouts-
Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Mow Mow Swordsalmon Darvin3 Ryat Greyfox2 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur Top Vasari LordMechanoid Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat CallenExile
Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?
Yay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Howdidudothat Greyfox2 Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Wingflier Darvin3 Ryat CallenExile 52500 JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Wingflier Howdidudothat CallenExile 52500 LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Swordsalmon DirtySanchezz Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician JSW_Ballz Cykur Greyfox2 Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?
Yay- Mow Mow Swordsalmon Howdidudothat Ryat Chaotic Magician 52500 JSW_Ballz Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- Wingflier DirtySanchezz Darvin3 CallenExile Cykur Greyfox2 LordMechanoid Kitkun
Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?
Yay- Mow Mow Darvin3 Ryat Chaotic Magician Sivcorp Top Vasari Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- CallenExile JSW_Ballz Cykur LordMechanoid
No Balance Needed- Agent of Kharma EadTaes DesConnor
RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS
While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?
Buff Skirmishers-
Increase DPS? Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes DesConnor Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
Nay- LordMechanoid
Decrease Supply cost?
Yay- Raging Amish LordMechanoid Hrabandur Qu4r
Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow Kitkun -Ue_Carbon CrazyElectron Arthanis
Decrease Resource cost?
Yay- 52500 Warlord Mike
Nay- Darvin3 Cykur Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat DirtySanchezz Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz LordMechanoid lbgsloan Kitkun Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r Arthanis
Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?
Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 52500 Chaotic Magician Top Vasari Howdidudothat Wingflier Swordsalmon Juletron Ryat Sivcorp Runesia DirtySanchezz GreyFox2 Raging Amish CallenExile Mindseye JSW_Ballz Warlord Mike lbgsloan Mow Mow EadTaes Kitkun Agent of Kharma Hrabandur -Ue_Carbon Qu4r CrazyElectron Arthanis
As for bugs, Charged Missiles for the sentinel doesn't work on frigates anymore.
There are a few minor balance issues. Skirmishers don't do enough damage and assailants (already signicantly weaker then other LRFs) were effectively nerfed because LFs got buffed. Vasari scouts could arguably get a damage boost also.
Nice post deciever.Be Nice to see a warning when someone starts to build a sb on your world.
PHASIC TRAP LEVEL 2 still does not work...
from what I was led to understand (by Blair himself) the Charged Missiles for the sentinel was only supposed to work for SC only so I dont think this is a bug
How about the fact that the Dunov icon is still backwards?
YES! PLEASE FIX THIS!!!! lol
phase gates take time to register
Yes but the same could be said for all LRFs with the LF boost. Bottom line is LRFs still do the same amount of damage to all other types of ship, they just cant rip through light frigs quite as fast as they could. I do agree with your skirmisher comments.
I don't think that falls under the area of bugs. I don't think there should be a "Starbase is under construction at one of our planets" warning, however, I think the "Hostile forces are inbound" warning that you get after researching the phase lane monitoring techs should apply to starbase construction vehicles. This way, a cunning Vasari can still sneak a starbase in on a player without these techs, but may have a much harder time (though not an impossible one) against players who have researched them. Also these tech would make it increasingly difficult to sneak a starbase further and further into your empire, as that warning will sound everytime the migrator jumps between planets you control, making it less and less likely a migrator will go unnoticed the further it gets. If these minor changes occured, Im sure more players would use those techs. What do you think about that? Seems fair to me.
Prove to me thats a Bug and Ill put it up, how can you be sure the DEVs hadnt meant it to be that way?
Explain this to me in more detail, or let me test it out.
For balance issues, Illuminators need a slight HP nerf. They're almost completely balanced, but Illuminators are still dominating in Advent fleets, and massing them is still more effective than bringing out Crusaders. And Ravastra Skirmishers need a damage boost.
My thoughts are once the illuminators "mystery damage" bug is resolved, illuminators will be right where they belong.
For insight into that bug check out JohnJames's post on it:
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/367162
Nevermind then. I forgot about that topic. Thanks.
I'm going to say that because all other icon face the same direction as the ship, the Dunov's not facing the same direction is a bug. And for what possible reason would they want the Dunov to face backwards but all the other face forwards?
Maybe the Dunov just likes being contrary?
Snotty damn Dunov.
There's the possible Kol graphics glitch....? I also had a bug where constructors on one planet froze and nothing would be built there, if it happens again I'll send the replay report.
Though perhaps not a bug for a hotfix- and the illuminator bug merits a hotfix, its very disappointing to have a balance patch that has enhanced illuminators- I'd like the returning fleets to be revised, as I don't consider them to have been modified correctly.
The problem isn't that the fleets aren't valuable in terms of resources, its that its fiddly to have small groups of ships at a stage of play when you already have enough to do. That has deterred me from making the rather heavy investment. It might be improved by one of two methods:
i. Consider all phase gates to be the same for purposes of cooldown, grant the fleets free to compensate- this would be effective for combat reinforcements.
ii. The fleet trickles back a ship at a time- still free- rather than in groups. Gates have individual cooldowns. If the advantage is xyz resources why not just have the fleet restricted to that size or slightly smaller? This would be more effective as economic compensation.
I'd prefer this second option. If the original problem with the returning fleets was that their size unbalanced the game, why not just make them smaller? The Advent and TEC top level economic advantages require nothing like the same degree of organisation.
Well the sentinel's CM should work on frigates as it helped when fighting illums.
It was a stealth nerf. It did affect all ships before, but now sc. Funny thing though it activates when fighting all ships but damage isnt applied.
oh man, i thought it was just me... glad to know im not going crazy!
and as for returning armada... why not set a rally point or have one phase gate act as primary and have ships trickle in from all the gates (each with its own cool down) and rally at the rally point or primary gate?
alternatively, why not have the option to set the gate to "stand-by mode' or something, in where new ships 'arrive' once the ability is activated, but dont enter your space and dont cost fleet resources, then, when you need an emergency fleet or reinforcements, have the nearest gate call in the pooling ships and have a ready made fleet ready on demand?
Ok I could live with this if it was a unique warning for a sb constructor.Vas sb constructs so fast if your fleet is 3-4 jumps away you never kill it before it constructs requiring you to build a 2nd fleet IF you can in time to kill it before it builds.There should be an am requirement to cast the build too so a person has a chance of killing the migrator before it starts building.Less cunning and more cheapshot if you ask me.To be able to keep an eye on your back planets while your fighting can be tough especially if its a close battle.
I would just like to have RA have a rally point period. I'll be building a fleet la de da, and whoops I am out of capacity. "where are the rest of my ships?" i will most likely say to myself, my gf will look at me like i am crazy. "oh there they are, miles and miles away." I'll say. She'll scoot a little further away, trying to get in range of the knife drawer (just in case). Then while I am waiting for these ships to arrive (whilst simulateously trying to calm her down) I will get attacked by a fleet or two. "damnation!" i will exclaim. Someone will call the police to report a domestic disturbance.
end game.
See? A rally point would save me from having to deal with police.
Just saying.
Ok, so I see RA seems to be a popular issue, perhaps thats where I'll start the stat changes section. In the mean time, anything else that falls under the bugs heading let me know.
Oh and Mindseye,
My guess is that the Devs are going to be pretty busy with Diplomacy, and probably too busy to add in new features in a patch, so your unique warning idea will have to probably wait until then. In the meantime, just making sb constructors trigger the alarm when that tech is resarched will have a positive impact. As for AM requirements, in the PSCF from the previous patch I avoided the topic of the Vasari SB like the plague for the simple fact that it is so different from the other SBs and Assault Cruisers that its impossible to balance it comparative to them. Also because Vasari players think theyre highly unreliable, and TEC and Advent players think theyre OP, and Im inclined to agree with both sides of the arguement. If changes are to be made, no doubt it will be a nerf and buff. I may try and tackle the issue with this thread, but I'll have to do some serious spec research on the thing to separate facts from exaggerations.
If you're going to research starbase issues you might also want to examine the reported 'death from above' issue. where there is claimed to be a z-axis blind spot.
If a starbase is used as an offensive weapon, isn't it then limited by being unable to leave the grav well, whereas anti-structure ships can? If a player wouldn't have otherwise put a starbase there, that seems to cost a great deal of resources?
However, I'm pleased that the factions have become more different in the expansion, I hope that will continue in the next one, along with bonuses for similar factions on the same team. What the game might be able to use is some sort of tide-turning new feature... perhaps the Advent could turn all their temples into holy warships at once, with minimal economic penalties for scrapping, that sort of concept... I suppose the next full balance patch will be after the beta, making a hotfix for the illuminators and autocast issues more vital.
Well my original thought is its mostly op in early game when a vas can planet a sb down before you can roll out your first ilum.So my idea was have enemy grav well build times longer and then the tec that allows you to build them faster be higher.That way early game and later game will be balanced.Easily done in a patch.
Has no one mentioned pathing?
It seems the pathing of ships got worse after v1.01 entrenchment. If you give a group of ships an order, they all rearrange to jump out in some "musical" chairs sort of way. It's really stupid, annoying, and more micro intensive than it should be to get multiple ships to jump out as quickly as possible.
100% Agree with how.Especially for cap ships.They go out of their way to run into things.
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