From a reply in a thread @ HotAir on the just-released Finance Committee Healthcare Reform Bill:
Liberalism at its core is coercion and force. For all the moral preening the Left does about how much they care and how heartless we conservatives are the truth is quite the opposite. There is nothing kind about using the force of government to compel ostensibly free citizens to surrender significant portions of their labor and property (income) to the state to serve the purposes not of the nation but of the State, i.e. the government.
Liberalism makes half the population servants to the other half of the population through various social programs that cannot be opted out of even though our lives are diminished by the confiscation of our earnings.
Liberalism root and branch is anathema to the American tradition of individualism as well as poisonous to liberty for how can liberty exist when the state seeks to control the lives of individuals rather than the individual himself? Liberals are always trying to claim the moral high ground but how can this be a valid claim when their entire agenda can only be enacted by force?
Conservatism is the truly compassionate ideology because it seeks to free, and keep free, the individual from the state. I do not now and will never work for the state and will die fighting against it if I must.
DerKrieger on October 19, 2009
Talk about cutting to the chase. I don't know who DerKrieger is, but I'd vote for him.
Well, recently I researched the connection between environmental ethics and economy - they have amazingly much in common, but going through all the econimc theory that explained how a cost benefit analysis worked to evaluate the intrinsic value of something like a meadow or forest was tiring. At least the text was in english and so the style was enjoyable. Angloenglish scientific writing is alot different from german scientific writing. Here, you have to use complicated language and technical terms, and the more difficult it is to read the more of a scientist you appear. Texts have long complicated sentences filled with technical terms to explain completely banal and mundane contexts and connections, and everything has to be deadly serious, no humour allowed.
How much more can an economy grow if you already have everything?
It is the other way around, but the claim is still there.
Well, if your population is not growing, not much. But the fallacy is that we have everything. 100 years ago, everything did not include cars, microwaves, washers, dryers, cell phones or even phones. (some had most of the stuff, but most did not). Even 20 year ago, who had a cell phone or needed one? (I got mine about 11 years ago) Or the Internet?
yea, they are really just toys - but they are neat toys!
Remember the old cliche - the only differnce between a man and a boy is the cost of their toys!
I couldn't see anything overly communist in statements like equality, national pride and standing strong. That are pretty much universal themes.
Its not THESE statements that are communist. "equality, national pride and standing strong" are meaningless buzzwords.
1. Their actions are communist, they past laws which follow communist ideaology. Calling it "equality, national pride and standing strong" doesn't change it being communist
2. They make statements such as "spreading the wealth" and when baited, even "from each according to his means to each according to his needs".
A pity you don't have context. What we call liberals now are what we used to call conservatism. When Lincoln became president, he was a liberal. it was not until conservatives were so outrageous did they change names, calling themselves liberals. People bought it and liberals now called conservatives were stuck cleaning up the name. we did that and now we have liberals destroying the name liberal to the point they now are starting to call themselves progressives. The ideas have not changed since their staunch support of slavery, hate, and national destruction, just the name they call it.
If you are a republican and say mainstream republican things (ex: I believe marriage should be between a man and a woman) you would be accused of hate speech and be barred from ever being a teacher, or having any of your books used in schools. Oh, and when GM was nationalized and started closing dealerships? they were targeting dealerships whose owners are republican.
Your example was that if you were an approved member of the party you could not:
1. Publish books - While you could still publish books in the USA, those books will never be used in a classroom.
2. Be a teacher - that is currently the case in the USA. I constantly hear praise of obama during college lectures from half my teachers (physics class, biostatistics class). The other half keeps their mouth shut, so they are either republicans, independents, or democrats who think I am actually there to learn about science and not liberalism.
3. Be a profession - that is the same as a teacher... unless you were seperating K12 teachers from college teachers... in which case you should know that it is even WORSE in K12 system as far as liberal propaganda.
4. Run your shop - The government nationalizes things left and right, they are specifically taxing banks and other businesses they dislike, they close down shops (of car dealers) whose owners are the wrong party after having nationalized the car companies.
Your example is terrible because all those things you said already happen and just serve to illustrate how wrong you are.
Indeed, the founding fathers stood for liberty and democracy. Liberal sounds like liberty, but they stand of tyranny. Democrat sounds like democracy, but they stand for communist oligarchy
Your claim about a liberal nazi like dictatorship doesn't hold up because you would already be in prison, and sites like this wouldn't work at all, a lot like it is in China today. Anybody in a public function who had a different oppinion from the official propaganda would at best lose their jobs or be in prison or at worst just disappear. The only freedom you would have is to feel free to shut up and do as you're told, and you would probably have a civil war already because all those out there who are fervent advocates of the 2nd ammendment would take up arms and defend their rights against government oppression. I don't actually think a dictatorship would work in the US for that reason - american mentality just doesn't compute with being oppressed.
I feel like you (and others who claim this) trivialize the horrors and totality of nazirule with your comparison. As a matter of fact, your pathos has alot in common with the style the NSDAP used in their propagandacampeigns against whomever group they wanted to exterminate.
Bottom line is that both liberals and consevatives are able to accuse each other and fight like alleycats in blogs or radioshows or TVshows and any other media because the US is anything but communist.
1. You conviniently ignore points 2 through 4.
2.
3.
Nazi germany didn't have death camps at day 1, it was a transformation that took years. We are similar to an early stage... we still have rights, but are already being limited. Things are indeed not as bad as late nazi germany. But I never claimed they were.
4.
Hence the movement and unification against our would be opressors.
5.
Bullshit.
First of all, we are clearly referring to EARLY nazi germany... specifically the methods by which they built up their power to allow them to do whatever they want later on.
Secondly, your statement is just an appeal to emotion and has no actual logical or evidence based merit. Get an actual argument please.
Third, are you aware that I am a jew? and that while my grandparents survived the holocaust, their close and extended family did not. My great grand-parents, most of their children, their siblings, their children, their uncles, their aunts, their children, etc all have been murdered by the nazies. And their names are now engraved on plaques of memorial in Germany.
I am not saying I am offended, but that is a hillarious faux pas on your part that I am completely shocked that you would make. Whats next, tell some black people that they are trivializing black slavery by calling socialism a form of slavery? (oh wait!)
Now, I am not saying its impossible for jews to trivialize the holocaust or for blacks to trivialize slavery... I am just shocked that a so called politically correct liberal would make such a statement.
Prisoncamps for undesirable political opponents, intellectuals etc. were around since year 1. They were among the first things that were established. A concentration camp is not automatically equal to a deathcamp, even though distinguishing here seems awful as thousands of people died in "regular" camps as well.
How's that for EARLY nazi rule? Conservative bitching and moaning about Obama's nazimethods is very amusing when you actually compare what happend in the last stages of the Weimar Republic and the first year of Hitler's rule in 1933 to the first year of Obama's administration. Why don't you go to the history department of your library the next time and do some research instead of listening to populist and declamatory radioshows and/or TVshows that claim to be politically informe. There are many actual examples based on facts and documents available in historybooks that have nothing whatsoever to do with emotions.
It depends entirely on the degree of comparison. Comparing nationalsocialist methods used by Hitler like forcible coordination that established a totalitarian regime, extensive use of secret police to enforce said regime, a private security force to intimidate political opposition, extensive censoring of all media, mandatory membership in the ruling party and dissolving all other political parties at the same time etc. to Obama's policy is too exagerrated to be taken seriously. If anything, the patriot act was closer to Hitlers methods of control.
Comparing the strife of the farmers in feudal russia and under Lenin to slavery in the US wouldn't rise an eyebrow - there are similarities in the degree of exploitation and suffering, inhumane treatment even though the political and economic backgrounds are entirely different.
Well, he is starting with his "national Police Force". A force he envisions to replace the military.
Germany in 1933 was a nascent democracy, and of course America in 2009 is a 200+ year old one, so it will take longer if we allow it. The key is in the last phrase - if we allow it. And one way of "allowing" is to ignore the warning signs. The first shot has been fired. We need to stop it before it reaches a conflagarion.
The partition of the political system into judicative, executive and legistlative bodies is well suited to prevent anything from happening that isn't sanctioned by the voters and violates the consitution.
Even as the president, supposedly the most powerful position in the world, it isn't possible to just decree laws - but that is what Hitler did. After he threatend or arrested or even killed the political opposition the parliament, if you can still call it that, every law was just nodded through - and Hitler ensured dictatoral powers for himself by quasi legal means.
The police thing.. I haven't heard of that so far. I thought the US already have a national police force - the FBI.
I associate Hitler with blind hatred and racist ideology, a total will to dominate the world by force and to ruthlessly exploit or kill of those that didn't fit into his worldview. To compare someone like Obama or GW Bush as well with Hitler is an unacceptable insult. You cannot use Hitler as a foil and then clarify that you only meant certain very specific issues that might have some similiarities if you're blind and squint really hard. I wish people would stop using the emotional carrd - and using Hitler and everything that is associated with him is very emotional - and stick to facts or at least a more neutral tone.
Indeed. But its jurisdiction is somewhat constrained, apparently more than BO would like.
BO's call for a domestic police force 'as strong as our military' was always a bit strange & unlikely to go anywhere, but not inconsistent with his political philosophy and desire for centralized/nationalized control of everything.
IN theory. In practice, it is if we allow it. Again, where in the constitution does it say that you should spy on your neighbors? Obama decreed it (he has since backed off due to furor over it). Where in the constitution does it say an executive agency can make law? He did, the EPA and classifying Co2 as a toxic gas (clearly it is not - even science backs that up). Where in the constitution is the president allowed to appoint non-confirmed people to make policy? (Obama did - See Czars).
As I said, if we allow it. And the answer is, yes it can happen in any society.
Look at present day Venezuela for a metamorphose of democracy into socialism and tell me how that isn't supposed to happen. Sure the US isn't Venezuela, but it clearly illustrates what is possible when there are those willing.
Pardon my ignorance, what law was passed that allowed the government to take over two car companies? Fire the elected CEO's? Dictate how they must run their businesses? Government is supposed to be seperate from private enterprise by LAW.
You not hearing about it doesn't surprise me, try more reliable sources of news. It happened. I suggest you go through the archive on my blog, and on draginols, and leukis, they all have links to various news stories as they broke.
You can also start here: http://www.nakedemperornews.com/
And in an interview he and his advisors mentioned that they want to introduce mandatory civil service at 18 like in europe, with the obama force being one of them... It is amazing what you can find in old videos of politicians.
PS. everyone in germany believed it could never happen to them either.
Interesting. Here, Wolfang Schäuble has similar ideas for the police - but he is very conservative. The ones who criticizse too much power for the police or intelligence services are the liberals and the green party.
The US government didn't take over the carcompanies because they wanted to control that industry. I thought GM and Chrysler were all but bankrupt.. without nationalization thousands would have lost their jobs, and that would have been worse. As soon as they are back in business they can privatize themselves again, same as the banks who paid back the money they recieved and can do as they please again. I don't understand your fuss about it. It wasn't done due to the political ideology of a planned economy.
I suppose you could have let the market regulate itself all the way, but I bet that you would have a much higher unemployment rate than 10% right now. No president would have let that happen, regardless from which party he came from. It would have been political suicide to let the economy crash to see what happens.
I don't compare Chavez with the rest of the intelligent world. I don't understand how he failed to learn the lesson from history. But the Federal Republic Germany has social components in its economic structure since 1949, and I wouldn't describe it as a socialist dictatorship. The theory is called "social market economy" or ordoliberalism.
I don't understand the paranoia connected with the word social. You know, it does not automatically mean a communist dictatorship or loss of freedom in any form. From my european/german perspective, you all sound somewhat crazily paranoid on this issue.
That is a very big misconception. bankruptcy does not mean the company disappears. It does mean a resstructuring, so some people lose their jobs - which happened anyway (both declared bankruptcy). What did happen because of Obama is that the normal process was circumvented so that millions of people lost billions of dollars (not even including the American Taxpayer). Bond holders were deprived of their money when in most normal bankruptcies, they would have gotten some money. And of course Obama then dictated everything the companies did - from what they could pay their top executives, to what cars they made. Obama did not call it nationalization, but it quacked, swam, and waddled like a duck. So it did not take a genius to figure out it was a duck.
Ford was the only company that refused to bite the poisoned apple. And guess which company is now riding very high?
Yes it was. Clearly neither the bank TARP or the Auto money did any good other than to allow the government to dictate policy. Banks still went out of business, GM and Chrysler still went bankrupt, and millions still lost their jobs. So what was the purpose of the money other than to gain control of the businesses? The Banks (that are able) are paying back the money as fast as they can, and still declaring billion dollar losses. Why? To get out of the control of Obama. Yet now he is trying to change the rules and say "if you ever took", not "if you have now".
I hate nazi comparisons, but this one is very appropriate. When Hitler was subtly taking over parts of Europe, was he telling the world "This is my first land grab"? No, he was saying "this is my last land grab". And clearly the former was correct, the latter was a lie. So if you listen to Obama, you notice the same thing. he says one thing, and does another. More so than most politicians. They lie during the campaign and then break promises. Obama just lies all the time.
Again incorrect. Most presidents would have passed a real stimulus package, but any honest person will tell you that the one Obama passed was pure pork, and not stimulus. They thought they could pass the pork and that the recession would be over soon anyway, and of course it was not (proof is in the fact that in the first year, only 17% of the money was spent). So unemployment would have gone to 10% with another president not nationalizing half the US economy - if they had passed a real stimulus as well - but it would be falling now, not waiting for the double dip.
There is no paranoia with the word social. We all are social. We live in a social society. We socialize. But socialism is about as social as a knife in the back, and there the paranoia comes in. Socialism dictates that the fruits of your labor are the government's first and they then allow you to keep what they think is best. Capitalism clearly is different. You keep the fruits of your labor, but pay the government for maintaining social order. Clearly Germany is not soclalist by their stated definition. But in practice, they are approaching it. As are most western democracies, the US included. As Margaret Thatcher said "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.". Indeed, Obama ran through all the money very quickly and has basically nothing to show for it.
I think that germans in particular don't like the use the nazi's as comparison for anything. Hitler is not a normal figure of history for us, nor are the 12 years of nationasocialist reign a normal historical period which can be talked about neutrally. Some people compared Bush to Hitler after he opened Guatanamo Bay. It is a concentration camp, if you will, where people were and are held against their will and without a trial. The legal loophole of enemy combattants doesn't really change that fact.. I am sure Hitler had artificially created legal circumstances that made the incarcarations of politicians, intellectuals, gays, priests in 1933 legal as well. The comparison is an unbearable insult though because Guantanamo is nothing like a german concentration camp nor are the prisoners innocent people. Even though I didn't like Bush I would not stand for that.
Aren't all prisoners of war (or otherwise) held against their will? This has to be the worst statement about Gitmo I've ever heard, but I'm not surprised by the type of thinking behind it, as even the US media makes it appear that way. The truth is people were not scooped up arbitrarily and sent there, they had a personal choice in the matter (by picking up a rife or planning an attack). They do no work (forced labor), the conditions are better than many US prisons. It is NOTHING like a concentration camp. Perhaps you'd like them put up at the local Hilton? Even well meaning comparisons, exasperate the issue needlessly.
Loophole?
Oy Vey.
Easy with the horses. It is quite possible to describe it as such if you squint or just use facts without context that are convenient for your argument. I disagreed with the comparison in my post.
Enemy combatants appears very loopholish to me - either you are an enemy in a war, then you have soldiers who become prisoners of war, or you aren't - and then you have civilians. Picking up a rifle and planning an attack sounds very military to me, but I am no expert. "Encamping" civilians with disregard to their habeas corpus and constitutional rights to satisfy national security issues is illegal in the US and many other places around the world. Creating a third group to avoid being bound to existing law is fishy- it isn't even a loophole, more like a sleazy lawyeresque trick.
I realize that there is a dilemma when faced with an asymetrical threat like terrorism because you have criminal fanatical civilians who pose a military threat on a large scale with acts of terrorism like 9 11, and there is no precedence for that. Maybe Guantanamo had been a necessity in the years after 2001, but it is up to the legislature to deal with that new set of problems and to define and work out the necessary laws within the legal framework of the constituion.
The 'third group' in question here created itself, utemia. No one had to 'avoid being bound to existing law' - 'existing law' (military tribunals) covers them quite adequately. Pretending there is an absolute dichotomy (POW or civilian, no exceptions) is disingenuous at best.
I didn't know that military tribunals allow for detainees to be detained for months on end, even more than a year, before they have their tribunal.
I don't want to start a debate about military tribunals or enemy combattants and the rest of it. I still find it fishy, but that's my personal pov. I don't really think about the whole issue very often because Cuba is far away from Germany and the issue isn't very present here. All the different implications of the military commission act from 2006 for the tribunals themselves, for jurisprudence and legal philosophy are interesting when I hear about them, but that's just curioucity.
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