I'm always trying to learn and get better at the games I play. Recently I've been playing oak a fair amount, and tried out a few thing with him, just because I wanted to see how they work, and I'd love to hear what other, successful, players have been doing with him.
First, let me quickly discuss my current build:
What probably sticks out the most here is the 3 (gasp) points of Divine Justice I take. After some thought I went with this route because of the increase in the number, and ferocity, of minion builds. What does Divine Justice have to do with minions you ask? Knock down a wave of spirits with Surge of Might, and you'll see. Basically, the increased number of high HP targets greatly increases the DJ yield from surges near them, especially in the thick of big battles. Maybe TB just softened them up, or Beast's ooze is doing a number on them. 20% health from a wave of 900 hp vampirelets or 700 hp spirits is a LOT. Mana too.
Shield we only level in end game, though if I need to, I'll put more points in it and less in DJ. Rare though.
Items are pretty normal, except that I get level 1 siege gunners and minotaurs a bit earlier than most. Unbreakables, nimoth's, vlemish, etc, etc, for items.
So now let's look at a Replay
Click Here for replay
This replay uses the above build, and I think examplifies a bit about it (Though no minion using opponents... QoT on the opposing side seems to THINK she has minions though.
Firstly, as Penitence and Surge are the best as support abilities, I make sure to jump in to help friends as best I can.
Secondly, I get the currency upgrade, literally as soon as possible.
Thirdly, I am all over the flags on this map. I do not get a lot of early kills, in fact I get very few kills, but still get 'Kill Streak' due to me assisting in almost every other kill a player makes.
A few highlights:
Anyhow, I'd really love to see some other oak Replays using different builds. I am not at all convinced mine is the best, because I rarely get to play good teams (That aren't so much better than my poor puggy team that it matters).
Just to add my .02c
Hmm, ok, I propose a simple test. You and your skilled Oak opponent both get monks and BotF and meet mid at game open. You pick Penitence and he picks Shield. He saves his shield until you have cast Penitence (stripping the debuff). Both of you focus monks on the other. Who breaks first?
The answer is that the Penitence Oak breaks first, every time.
Penitence is a great ability. Shield is the best ability in the game, without a doubt. If you think Oak is a late bloomer it's probably because you save Shield for when "someone really screws up" and if you are winning early confrontations with Penitence then you would have won them without it, too. Counting on your opponents to make mistakes is a bit lazy, and it's a sad commentary on the state of play that you get away with it.
As an aside - ever notice how Spirits do damage which falls below the UI threshold? The devs don't want to clutter up the screen, but I think this has the psychological effect of making people discount Spirit builds unfairly. Spirits are really good at suppression and harrassment early and mid and become piranhas late - even against good players.
PS When I get a good replay of a hybrid Oak in action I'll put it up, Jongalt
Obviously a shield oak will beat the penitence oak at level 1 in a 1v1. That, however, isn't the game we are playing. It's not "getting away" with anything - you are level 2 long before you ever need shield.
and you are level 4-5 before you ever need Penitence
My point is that Shield is relevant immediately and throughout play - Penitence is just icing
No one breaks, my penitence wins, because I trigger it for the kill when he has less than 200 hp left. That's an easy one!
But still, what on earth does that have to do with anything? How about a different test, we both enter combat with 150 health, no monks and 500 mana, and see who wins. Just as fair right? You shield, I walk around for 3 seconds keeping you in range, and then penitence for the win.
I've got a replay earlier in this thread where I kill Pacov twice and KALel once in the first 4 minutes of a game. Obviously, I shouldn't have been able to get either that early with Oak - but the fact is, with Shield, I at most would have gotten one of those kills. Playing with smart and good teammates, the Penitence just does so much more in any 2v2.
Orb of Veiled Storms works really well with Divine Justice and Surge of Faith. It's like 1k instant AoE, and that translates into a lot of health.
Also, Shield IV + Dark Crimson Vial equals over 2k heal at level 10. That's insane! It's not a bad favor item for Oak.
I sure as hell hope that that was a 2v2 as opposed to XvX and I wasn't on their team at that time lol! Do you have a link to that replay?
@ Poly, i certainly understand the the game is about map control. However the last time I went up to a UB and politely asked him to let me have the flag, while pointing out that he needs to share, he just Raaawred and spit on me. I was not very appreciative of his rude behavior.
@Epi, Orb does look nice, i dont remember using it though so the next time i get the opportunity I prob. will just to check it out.
Dark crimson is cool too and is awesome that it scales with the game, however i typically just carry a sigil. Not quite as effective but at least it's instant 50% albeit temporary hlth but doesn't use a favor slot.
So now that brings me to a request that i've asked some of the guys that i play with but haven't gotten around to doing, and that is 1v1 build "tests". The tests can occur within the no penalty concede timeframes. We could adjust game settings for level, gold etc. Im just curious how builds stand up to each other in a 1v1 situation, i know it's not indicative of team play due to lack of synergies so please don't flame me for that. It's more curiousity in nature.
Is anyone else interested in something like this?
j
Shield 1 always 1st. I can't recount just how many times it saved my arse, or my teammates arse (whether they have been chasing a kill, not known about high towers, about to be nuked etc)
If i can get some early gold, a cheap kill etc normally ill get another mana helm (or perhaps tell teammates i have cash for currency) and spec penitence early.
If the opposing team really isn't using interrupts much, then 1 level in shield is fine to do all the tricky stuff, as long as you are aware of what you need to do. i.e. shield and quickly scroll for tp etc or shield and spam potions.
If the enemy pushes early with creeps, or goes hc creeps, i try to spec more into divine justice. I normally get DJ pretty early, because of the mana regen, from last hitting all the creeps. Or even the monks, or those pesky minions.
Normally though, i make up my mind on how to play depending on the first 5 or so levels, then spec from there. You can normally tell if people are cautious, holding back, overeager, minion using, spammers etc
Normally i start off the 1st four levels the same though, and then specialise from there.
For favour it varies depending on the team too. Monks + Botf is always a good move though, Cloak of night is always enjoyable on crucible and exile. The minion regen/damage work well too if you are up against some non-aoe DGs.
Normal Kitch build for a cataract 3v3.
1. Shield 1
Always shield first.
2. Soul ward 1.
3. Raise dead ward 1
4. Divine justice 1
Soul ward and raise dead with spirits makes oak do about 220-240ish demage depending on how many spirits you have. This is very good for finishing off creeps, which complements divine justice early really well. Also, allows for attack of towers with raised DPS.
From here on in it depends on how the game goes. Early kill + gold, mostly penitence. If not, the surge. Lets go with an even game, and surge. Because of the aoe, you can surge an area to tag the creeps, and run away with the +speed when on low health.
5. Surge of faith 1.
6. Pen 1. (most people have decent nukes/potions worth interupting by now)
Decide now how the games going. Most people are getting mana/spamming things by now. Few directions. Spirits, Assasin, or in need of un-interuptable shield. Normally its a choice between some more damage if we are winning, or an un-interuptable shield combined with teleports if I'm getting ganked/losing. Lets say its still even.
7. Pen 2.
8. Pen 3.
depends here if they are using interupts much, and are consistently ganking. If so, shield time. If not, then spirits.
9 . shield 2.
10. Surge 2. Kills most of a creep wave just through activation.
11. Pen 4./Raise Dead 2
12. Shield 3
Depends now on how many creeps they have. If a lot, and you are being pushed back, then DJ. If equalish, the you want for the harrasment ability and the extra weapon damage.
13. Raise dead 2.
14. raise dead 3
15. Surge 3.
16. Raise dead 4.
17. Divine justice 3
18-20 whatever really, probably won't even get there.
Things to remember.
Level 4 raise dead ward gives a 400 armour bonus to unit in area. Same level as level 4 citadel creep armory?
Shield all levels debuffs. Shield 3 onwards blocks interupts.
Soul power is just +20 bonus damage each level.
Penitence before surge increases surge damage on a target.
Spirits are easily acquired and will rape face if specced properly. I selects spirits independently for S.A.S style raids on towers forts, demigods etc.
Your teamamte will always at some point require a shield.
Surge damages buildings.
Lure enemy into range of creeps. Fight battle amongst creeps and surge. ??? Best the rival demigod.
Not a problem if you have Shield
I watched the replay. You Penitence Pacov in melee range instead of just hitting him for the kill twice, man...It doesn't really show me anything except that Pacov might have had too much to drink that night..
I think the Kalel Penitence kill is a good one, but you were level 3-4 at that point? Most Oak players have Penitence by then...
The pushback you are getting in this thread is from people who feel Demigod is currently a defensive game - from that perspective you are saying the equivalent of "Playing with smart and good teammates, Mard's Hammer does so much more than BotF."
Shield is the equivalent of hitpoint stacking. Penitence is the equivalent of DPS stacking. Right now you just don't get the same bang for your buck by stacking damage, because dying is almost always worse than losing a kill
I'm wondering how much of your success is from insisting on Penitence I as a first skill and how much is just
Skills (my variation of the assassin oak)
After that... "Last Stand" or "Spirits", whatever you like!
Items (mana focus, massive burst, untouchable)
Favor: In 1v1 I'd probably get "Blood of the Fallen", however in team play I do like "Cloak of the Night" the most. The enemies focusing on you is exactly what you want, because you have shield, you have Wrap, Sigil and you can even use a Pot under the shield and tele away. Shield is awesome.
Mana: I totally focus on mana with my oak build, so I can spam Pestilence and Surge like a madman. Scaled Helm, Vlemish Faceguard, Plenor Battlecrown. I usually get Unbreakable Boots first though, as it gives both health and mana, and pestilence isn't too good in the beginning.
Health: Monks first, always. Unbreakable Boots as stated. Scalemail and Banded Armor, whenever I have to go back to the crystal and have extra cash. I try to get Clerics soon. Once the mana items are done, I'll go for Nimoth Chest Armor. If I really have lots of cash from kills then I get Namoth's Ring.
AoE: I'll get Nature's Reckoning if I feel I cant handle early priest/minion waves.
Speed: You can always shift to a speed build by getting: Boots of Speed and Wand of Speed.
Citadell: Currency I always ASAP. Others as needed.
Consumables: Scolls (always), Pots/Sigil (as a backup), Gadget (early/midgame)
Gameplay
This Oak is very powerful for team ganking.
I've modified my 'hyvrid' build somewhat and like the results, thanks kestr3l and poly.
http://www.gamereplays.org/demigod/replays.php?game=51&tab=popular&show=details&id=99039
I went random, got oak. This is how I played it based on my allies, map, enemy demigods.
About the oak in the replay...
+ You shouldn't Shield, Warp if you don't need to.+ No Pestilence spam until you have the mana.+ Don't waste scroll if you can't get a kill in early game (waste of money).
Ntropy's build is pretty much how I play oak, though I shift rank II shield/penitence around depending on the game and I almost always snag rank 3 shield at 7 and pen at 8, depending on the fight. If the other team is applying so much pressure that I have no hope of running through their towers for a portal cap there's a chance I'll go with pen at 7.
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