I felt like this deserved a post of its own even though I posted it elsewhere. There appears to be a problem after the experience reset.
SUMMARY: People can beat AI in pantheon and receive ladder experience for it (eg x humans v x ai). Currently the highest ladder ranked played is in that position because he's great at killing AI in pantheon. I'd argue that the ladder should be a measure of who the best player is (IGNORING AI).
Using Prussian-havoc as an example - MOST OF THE PANTHEON GAMES HE'S PLAYED IN ARE VS AI. So... ladder ranked 1 can (and is) the guy who plays the most comp stomps. We all acknowledge that the computer is a joke. Giving experience for ladder ranking to anyone that plays pantheon vs AI strike me as unreasonable.
Can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make it so pantheon games against AI are NOT worth experience (eg NA)?
And to be specific, here are some examples from that last 20 games that Prussian-Havoc has played in pantheon against AI.
http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984346/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984307/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984249/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984213/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984071/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984000/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983705/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983468/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983468/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983134/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/981721/player/78104/
Out of the last 20 games, Prussian-Havoc played 1 game in pantheon in 2v2 where 4 human players fought against each other and won. He lost 1 2v2 with 4 humans present. He won a game where it was 3 humans v 1 human with 2 ai. All of the remaining games were him + humans vs ai. Out of those 20 games, 12 games counted as a win, 1 as a loss with the remaining games as NA. If games against the AI would not have been counted (and based on 15 EXP per game as described above), he'd have a total of 15 EXP gained for those 20 games (instead of approx 180 exp). Adjusting Pantheon so there are no vs AI games would solve this or not ranking any vs AI games (as is already done in custom).
I want to be crystal clear that I'm not trying, in any way, to call out Prussian-Havoc. I just feel the system is flawed and needs addressed for those of us that care about competative play.
Oh agreed.
That would be ideal for sure.
I would like to see it at least tested. Maybe queue times would skyrocket and we'd have a deeper appreciation for the AI matchmaking, but it seems to me that if people aren't busy playing AIs that's more people to be paired against. I mean while the AI does fill slots in these games it's also pulling people out of the queue, so I'd really like to see what the effect would be if it stopped doing both.
Also seriously, light/dark has gotta go.
He "disappeared" from about 5 of my Pantheon games yesterday. In fact, he never made it into a single Pantheon game when I was opposite him.
I don't think that this is true. Pantheon games are so f*!ked up, because people see an AI in the connection screen and leave - I know I do. So you end up with lopsided games and collosal wastes of time. I would be far more likely to queue up for Pantheon if I did not have to watch the connection screen like a hawk. Further, I can't count the number of times I see 5 people waiting in queue and 4 of them are light. That's inane.
Here is what needs to be done:
Sigh... tried on my lunch break to get a game in. Couldn't get a custom game going quickly, so I join panth... I bump into prussian havok... the game never goes past the connect screen (just indicated he couldn't connect to 1 player). I wait 3 min and then cancel. Try again... now brothers is loading and I'm 1+4AI v 1 + 4AI someone else... didn't think 5v5 was enabled in panth, but apparently.
I noticed whenever Prussian-Havoc sees humans in a match, he leaves. I can see it in the connection window. His name is there then it vanishes real quick.
Sounds like he is exploiting the exp from AI to remain on top.
I played Havoc one time in Pantheon when no custom games were able to be going.. he actually went through with the game (albeit before the recent xp reset) and like chowdown said.. it was a joke.
Oh i have played against him once and with him once..some time ago both times. And yes...very poor indeed.
Is this being looked at SD?
Is taking exp from AI only games out of the equation being looked at?
Havoc is definitely just quitting games with human opponents... but I'm all for it. AIs need to go and this is the only way SD and GPG might realize that. I hope more people exploit this oversight so it actually gets fixed.
He clearly appears to be abusing the system. He's active in the forums, so I'd bet he's read this.
Havoc - Any chance you'll actually stop this on you own?
SD's been quiet in this post anyway regarding this. I'm not aware of anyone that's exploited stats or abused the system that's been dealt with anyway. I report it, we see what happens.
Given the feedback we've seen from SD I would say that pub stomping premades who climbed the ladder were perceived as abusing the system and we're seen that dealt with indirectly.
I'm currently rank 8 and I doubt SD will find my desire to be rank 7 especially compelling. What I think we need to focus on is that every time someone quits out of a game to dodge human players the players left behind must then sit in line again for a new game.
I could be ladder rank 30,000 and I'd still care. I'd just hope that when obvious abuse occurs, that action might be taken because we (the people who play this game) actually do care about the stats. Shouldn't be that hard to reset his stats alone so he'll have to go through the agony of hundreds of AI stomps if he's still motivated to do so (then reset them again). Or - you could just stop what you are doing havoc.
IF everyone did what you suggest, Obsc, then perhaps that would work. Sadly, I'm doing panth on lunch breaks and don't have time to deal with his crap.
Why would they reset his stats? He hasn't broken any rules.
I can't just say he's being a jerk? Fair point, though.
Is not exploitation covered somewhere in the ToS? Maybe he has broken some rules....
Either way, a jerk he is and the community knows about it. He is #1 in his head only.
So I don't assume that he's convinced himself he's the best player just because he's beating some AIs. I think he probably just finds it funny.
Now don't get me wrong, I think the system needs to be fixed to discourage this behavior, but I would just really prefer to see it come in the form of improvements for everyone rather than punishment for the guy who did it best, because while being first place focuses attention on prussian, I'm sure there's other people who are trying it to get into the top 100, 50, 30, whatever.
Right... and a solution to 1 of the stat problems would be pretty easily solved by not granting experience for human v ai games. The only reason I even looked into Prussian in the 1st place was because I noticed he was ladder #1 and I was surprized I haven't played him. You can be polite and a nice guy, but still be a jerk. I didn't even consider that he was exploiting a weakness in the system at the time.
Tired of seeing more things wrong or illogical with dg... /closes eyes.
Havoc posted here, if anyone wants to confront him
Oh my... ok then.
I did...of sorts.
...
...And to be specific, here are some examples from that last 20 games that Prussian-Havoc has played in pantheon against AI.http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984346/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984307/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984249/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984213/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984071/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984000/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983705/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983468/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983468/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983134/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/981721/player/78104/...
...I want to be crystal clear that I'm not trying, in any way, to call out Prussian-Havoc. I just feel the system is flawed and needs addressed for those of us that care about competative play.
Great points all... please consider that the 20-match-pull that you considered was right after the reset... for whatever reason, all the Pantheon was giving me at the time was a 15 or so string of AI matchs... one right after the other (look at the dtg's)... it wasn't until I checked up on the incomparable Myp that I saw he was pulling non-AI matches, I immediately restarted my app and began pulling non-AI matches as well... please pull my last 50 matches and note that I have been most fortunate to encounter Obscenitor (in a... partner challenged moment) and pull a win, as well as other lucky wins against notable opponents...
...okay, another question being put to me, in gentle (and sometimes in the best non-gentle but purely dark fashion) is, do I play against AI... yes I do, at every opportunity!!! ... we all know that new players gravitate to the light at first and then (if they stay!!!!) to the dark... i play AI with new players (some of the best Light players drop AI matches immediately and I fully understand why) and I buy gold 1 through 3 as well as some of the exp upgrades... it gives our fellow new players a good feeling, it encourages them to stay in the Demi community (at least until the next Erb gank) and yes, i do get favor for the light out of it...
...ask those that have played on my side, I snipe at first opportunity for them, i buy gold 1 through 3 first (for the most part)... even if that means I have to run lightly equipped and only pull in flags... I work hard to push the best dark players for long games... my gold buys pay off in spades during a 45 minute match... just imagine not just giants but fully enhanced giants...
anyhow... that is my case... agree / disagree, but I know we all have a vested interest in a vibrant, expanding Demigod community... think about that the next time you see a fellow teammate verbally accost the new player on your team... I remember a short 6 weeks ago when i was that new player... verbal beratings happened repeatedly and frankly I am surprised I stuck around... but now, I am ever so glad I did... go ahead, reset the Pantheon, or better yet - set a monthly reset rule, publish all exp guidelines and let's have balanced, fair and open ranking competitions...
Good luck, good gaming and Good Hunting!
Again...more BS justification for your comp stomping to pad your stats.
My opinion anyways.....
thx Ob (you are always the Great Ob to me) anyhow... Neilo is right, I am a jerk... I never hit the forums and was unaware of all the... dare I say it... HAVOC, I have generated... but seriously, I have only played this game for 6 or so weeks, of course I am a weaker player (currently) than many of the notables who regularly comment here...
... but you know what I do very, very, very well - I have a 260 player Excel database on many of the most active Demigod players and I have some minor military experience... now, ask yourself, knowing that light players on a 1 to 1 basis are vastly more likely to be new players than your average dark Erb or UB monster, should I chose to stay in a match with the imcomparable Myp, the great Ob, or the not-so-friendly-but-spot-on Neilo when my partner (whom i also keep records of) is an 2 and 32... "challenge but still trying" player... what would you do if you know your one and only (or two and only) partner is not a match for Cold and Homer standing at the other Cit...
...I am weak, I chose in the best Sun Tzu fashion, to not take the field... and no, I do not strand most of these new players against dark pro's, the match refuses to launch and I meet the new player in the next (or future) AI match where by example or if asked, I can provide some clarity to the newest member of our community...
Good luck, good game and Good Hunting!
Hehe. I see what obscenitor meant.
To be fair, my problem is with the system granting a high level of experience to players that play against AI only. As exerience is not granted in custom games for playing against AI only, its obvious that the logic for rewarding experience is different in pantheon either by mistake or design. I'm guessing it currently works the way it does by design so that there would be some type of reward for players who try use the in game matchmaking but end up fighting AI only. At least then they players might get something out of the game. I'd assume that its pretty obvious that as human v ai games are not worth experience in custom games simply because it could be easily taken advantage of to pad an individual or team's stats, that any method of intentionally reproducing the same thing in pantheon would be considered an exploit. Its not a huge stretch in logic.
That's just part of the problem. The other part is the impact you have on other players by joining a pantheon game and then quitting at the connect screen (which is what appears to be happening). You force other players who, generally speaking, were probably looking to play against actual players, into lopsided match ups or force them to relaunch pantheon again and again until you are finally queued up with a game against AI.
So, on one side, your playing with new players and helping them enjoy the game in a non-hostile fashion is great and I'm sure are a good teammate in that type of game. But on the other side, you're abusing the system by jumping through a loophole and being a bit of a nuisance forcing players to have to relaunch pantheon again and again if they are end up in your path.
All that said, IMO a fix needs to come from SD on this so that either little or no experience is gained for human v ai games in pantheon. Or you could be a pal and quit racking up EXP against AI. Its your call.
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